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Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

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  • thomaslaw03
    Dear Jim, Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence. It is good to know
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
      Dear Jim,

      Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD
      version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence.

      It is good to know that you prefer to choose the translation from
      Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as being more accurate than
      Horner's. According to you, the sentence from the CSCD version is
      translated literally as:

      "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
      on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
      exposition." (Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
      anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu)

      A person emailed me that the corresponding Chinese version, MA 191 (T
      1, 739c4), also records the three terms clearly (prose, prose and
      verse, and exposition). This is very interesting. But I am unable to
      confirm this information for sure.

      Thank you to all.

      Sincerely,

      Thomas Law

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear Thomas,
      >
      > >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
      > >>
      > >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
      > >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
      >
      > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
      reads "veyyaakara.na.m
      > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
      >
      > >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a
      disciple
      > >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an
      exposition
      > >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
      > >>
      > >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: ''
      Ananda,
      > >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
      > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      > >>
      > >> My questions are:
      > >>
      > >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are
      in
      > >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
      > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      > >>
      > >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese
      versions
      > >> record the original words?
      >
      > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
      difference in
      > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
      accurate,
      > though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence
      translates
      > literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow
      the teacher
      > on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
      exposition."
      > The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this
      statement
      > and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on
      account of
      > such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta,
      geyya, etc.
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Jim
      >
    • Piya Tan
      Dear Nina and Pali friends, That s quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point. ... My main question regarding the history (as you put it)
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
        Dear Nina and Pali friends,

        That's quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point.

        On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        > Dear Piya,
        >
        > Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:


        > Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
        > Buddha started teaching?
        >
        > The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
        > have
        > evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
        > audience
        > was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
        > --------
        > N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
        > ready. There were so many arahats.
        > As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
        > whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
        > Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
        > It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
        > order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
        > rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
        > such as in our case.
        > ----------


        My main question regarding the "history" (as you put it) remains. It's
        obvious
        from the Vinaya stories and early Suttas that the Buddha gradually
        introduced
        the Dharma to the world.

        Even the First Council did not put together everything. For example, the
        Kathavatthu which was canonized during Asoka's time.

        As regards whether the Buddha taught Abhidharma, let leave it at that.
        However, anyone interested in my research on how Abhidhamma "began"
        is welcome to read it:

        http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/01Abhidhammapiya.doc.

        My point remains: we cannot apply the nine angas as a set to all the Suttas.
        Maybe to the much later texts. Maybe even not those, but the whole anga
        system is post-Buddha.

        Even if we say "the Arhats" put the texts together, we do not know this
        first-hand. It is still pi.taka,sampadaaya.

        Anyway I still have no doubt about the Dharma, notwithstanding whether the
        Angas refer to the whole Canon or not.

        We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.

        With metta,

        Piya Tan




        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        Tel: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Piya, Thanks for your mail. ... N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
          Dear Piya,
          Thanks for your mail.
          Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

          > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
          -----
          N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
          Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
          welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
          appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
          In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
          around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
          books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
          Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
          anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
          anyway for writing,
          Nina.
          P.S. Your link did not work.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Piya Tan
          Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends, I m aware attachments won t work here. Here is a link (hope this is OK):
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
            Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends,

            I'm aware attachments won't work here.

            Here is a link (hope this is OK):

            http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/26.1_DhammaAbhidhamma_piya.pdf

            The previous one was broken, sorry.

            Any problems, contact me, I will send the file personally.

            With metta,

            Piya Tan


            On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

            > Dear Piya,
            > Thanks for your mail.
            > Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
            >
            >
            > > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
            > -----
            > N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
            > Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
            > welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
            > appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
            > In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
            > around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
            > books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
            > Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
            > anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
            > anyway for writing,
            > Nina.
            > P.S. Your link did not work.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



            --
            The Minding Centre
            Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
            Singapore 650644
            Tel: 8211 0879
            Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
            Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • thomaslaw03
            Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
              Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

              Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
              support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
              you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
              refer to?

              Thank you.

              Thomas Law


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
              > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
              > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
              > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
              > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
              > difference in
              > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
              > accurate ...
              >
              > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
              > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
              (simply)
              > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
              > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
              > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
              > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
              to
              > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
              (suta-
              > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
              > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
              pa.tipadaa),
              > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
              > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
              > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
              hetu".
              > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
              >
              > Mahinda Palihawadana
              >
            • Mahinda Palihawadana
              Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
                Dear Thomas Law,

                I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
                CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
                Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
                volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
                su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
                is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
                down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
                Mahinda P.

                On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
                >
                > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                > refer to?
                >
                > Thank you.
                >
                > Thomas Law
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
                > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                > > difference in
                > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                > > accurate ...
                > >
                > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                > (simply)
                > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                > to
                > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                > (suta-
                > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                > pa.tipadaa),
                > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                > hetu".
                > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                > >
                > > Mahinda Palihawadana
                > >
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • thomaslaw03
                Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
                  Dear Pali friends,

                  In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                  list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                  angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

                  Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                  (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                  abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                  words of the text?

                  Thank you.

                  Thomas Law
                • Kumaara Bhikkhu
                  The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
                    The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

                    I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

                    Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

                    kb, who decided to drop by again

                    thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                    >Dear Pali friends,
                    >
                    >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                    >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                    >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                    >
                    >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                    >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                    >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                    >words of the text?
                    >
                    >Thank you.
                    >
                    >Thomas Law
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                    >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                    >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                    >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                    >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                    >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                    >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    peace2u,
                    kb

                    New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                    The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
                  • thomaslaw03
                    Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
                      Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

                      Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                      only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                      the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                      in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                      four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                      entire set of nine?).

                      Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                      have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                      geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                      hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                      Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

                      Thank you.

                      Regards,

                      Thomas Law

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                      >
                      > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                      set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                      an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                      to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                      editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                      that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                      >
                      > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                      says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                      for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                      >
                      > kb, who decided to drop by again
                      >
                      > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                      > >Dear Pali friends,
                      > >
                      > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                      has a
                      > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                      (i.e.
                      > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                      > >
                      > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                      > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                      > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                      the
                      > >words of the text?
                      > >
                      > >Thank you.
                      > >
                      > >Thomas Law
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                      > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                      > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                      > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                      > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                      > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                      digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > peace2u,
                      > kb
                      >
                      > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                      > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                      expire some time next year.
                      >
                    • Mahinda Palihawadana
                      Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
                        Dear Thomas Law,
                        In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                        veyyaakara.na.m".

                        Mahinda

                        On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                        > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                        >
                        > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                        > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                        > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                        > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                        > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                        > entire set of nine?).
                        >
                        > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                        > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                        > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                        > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                        > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                        >
                        > Thank you.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Thomas Law
                        >
                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                        > >
                        > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                        > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                        > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                        > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                        > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                        > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                        > >
                        > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                        > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                        > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                        > >
                        > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                        > >
                        > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                        > > >Dear Pali friends,
                        > > >
                        > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                        > has a
                        > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                        > (i.e.
                        > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                        > > >
                        > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                        > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                        > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                        > the
                        > > >words of the text?
                        > > >
                        > > >Thank you.
                        > > >
                        > > >Thomas Law
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >------------------------------------
                        > > >
                        > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                        > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                        > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                        > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                        > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                        > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                        > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > peace2u,
                        > > kb
                        > >
                        > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                        > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                        > expire some time next year.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • thomaslaw03
                        Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
                          Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                          Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                          edition.

                          A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                          The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                          saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                          sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                          I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                          someone here can help to confirm the words.

                          Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                          Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                          the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                          closely the Sinhala edition?)

                          Thank you.

                          Thomas Law

                          P.S.:

                          PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                          anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                          vol. 111, p. 115)

                          CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                          (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                          "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Thomas Law,
                          > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                          > veyyaakara.na.m".
                          >
                          > Mahinda
                          >
                          > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                          >
                          > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                          > >
                          > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                          the
                          > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                          > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                          found
                          > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                          the
                          > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                          > > entire set of nine?).
                          > >
                          > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                          > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                          sutta.m
                          > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                          veyyakara.nassa
                          > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                          the
                          > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                          > >
                          > > Thank you.
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > > Thomas Law
                          > >
                          > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                          Bhikkhu <yg@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                          > > >
                          > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                          > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                          through
                          > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                          even
                          > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                          > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                          say
                          > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                          > > >
                          > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                          Karanapali
                          > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                          gone
                          > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                          Huh?
                          > > >
                          > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                          > > >
                          > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                          > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                          > > > >
                          > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                          it
                          > > has a
                          > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                          abbhutadhamma
                          > > (i.e.
                          > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                          > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                          (8)
                          > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                          on
                          > > the
                          > > > >words of the text?
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Thank you.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Thomas Law
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >------------------------------------
                          > > > >
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                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > peace2u,
                          > > > kb
                          > > >
                          > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                          > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                          > > expire some time next year.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
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