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Re: Q. [Pali] Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

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  • Piya Tan
    Dear Nina & Pali friends, Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually, as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It; s good to have a
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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      Dear Nina & Pali friends,

      Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually,
      as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It;'s good to have a head, and of
      course,
      a heart, too.


      On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

      > When it is said sutta, geyya, it is the beginning of a well known
      > series, all nine angas are included.
      >





      I still have a problem with this statement you (and the Commentaries) made:
      Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
      Buddha started teaching?

      The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could have
      evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
      audience
      was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.

      But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the world as the
      nine
      angas as a full set.

      I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

      My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
      "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
      reason
      to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

      This then becomes dogma.

      With metta,

      Piya


      --
      The Minding Centre
      Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
      Singapore 650644
      Tel: 8211 0879
      Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
      Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • thomaslaw03
      Dear Jim, Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence. It is good to know
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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        Dear Jim,

        Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD
        version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence.

        It is good to know that you prefer to choose the translation from
        Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as being more accurate than
        Horner's. According to you, the sentence from the CSCD version is
        translated literally as:

        "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
        on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
        exposition." (Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
        anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu)

        A person emailed me that the corresponding Chinese version, MA 191 (T
        1, 739c4), also records the three terms clearly (prose, prose and
        verse, and exposition). This is very interesting. But I am unable to
        confirm this information for sure.

        Thank you to all.

        Sincerely,

        Thomas Law

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Thomas,
        >
        > >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
        > >>
        > >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
        > >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
        >
        > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
        reads "veyyaakara.na.m
        > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
        >
        > >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a
        disciple
        > >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an
        exposition
        > >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
        > >>
        > >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: ''
        Ananda,
        > >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
        > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
        > >>
        > >> My questions are:
        > >>
        > >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are
        in
        > >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
        > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
        > >>
        > >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese
        versions
        > >> record the original words?
        >
        > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
        difference in
        > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
        accurate,
        > though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence
        translates
        > literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow
        the teacher
        > on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
        exposition."
        > The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this
        statement
        > and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on
        account of
        > such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta,
        geyya, etc.
        >
        > Best wishes,
        > Jim
        >
      • mahipaliha
        ... reads veyyaakara.na.m ... difference in ... accurate ... The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying that a monk should not run
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
          > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
          reads "veyyaakara.na.m
          > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
          > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
          difference in
          > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
          accurate ...

          The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
          that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of (simply)
          learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
          expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
          elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
          compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'- to
          a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning (suta-
          pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
          accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma pa.tipadaa),
          i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
          ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
          you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu".
          It still looks an awkward wording, of course.

          Mahinda Palihawadana
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Piya, Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven: Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the Buddha started
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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            Dear Piya,

            Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
            Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
            Buddha started teaching?

            The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
            have
            evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
            audience
            was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
            --------
            N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
            ready. There were so many arahats.
            As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
            whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
            Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
            It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
            order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
            rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
            such as in our case.
            ----------

            P: But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the
            world as the
            nine angas as a full set.
            -------
            N: But when we read them in certain suttas they were there at that
            time. Perhaps not the first year of his teaching, but later on, we
            are not able to know now.
            -----------

            P: I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

            My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
            "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
            reason to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

            This then becomes dogma.
            ---------
            N: As to Veyyakara.na, the Atthasaalinii explains: < The entire
            Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the
            Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
            Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.>
            He taught Abhidhamma from the beginning but we also know that
            Saariputta, the General of the Dhamma , systematizised the Abhidhamma.

            You want to beware of dogma, but there is no danger if we see that
            the essence of the teachings is not theoretical. Whatever we read, be
            it a Tipi.ta text or commentary or tiika, we always have to ask
            ourselves: how can this help me now, in the development of
            understanding of this very moment? Otherwise all our study would be
            mogha. Whatever I read or translate, I really try to get the meaning
            relevant to this moment of my life.
            I like the following sutta, where all the nine angas are mentioned:

            Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Fours, XIX, 186) �Approach� (Ummagga)

            On the meaning of �mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
            heart:

            �...�Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
            Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
            understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
            stanza
            of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
            well be called �one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.��
            --------
            Nina.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Piya Tan
            Dear Nina and Pali friends, That s quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point. ... My main question regarding the history (as you put it)
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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              Dear Nina and Pali friends,

              That's quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point.

              On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

              > Dear Piya,
              >
              > Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:


              > Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
              > Buddha started teaching?
              >
              > The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
              > have
              > evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
              > audience
              > was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
              > --------
              > N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
              > ready. There were so many arahats.
              > As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
              > whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
              > Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
              > It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
              > order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
              > rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
              > such as in our case.
              > ----------


              My main question regarding the "history" (as you put it) remains. It's
              obvious
              from the Vinaya stories and early Suttas that the Buddha gradually
              introduced
              the Dharma to the world.

              Even the First Council did not put together everything. For example, the
              Kathavatthu which was canonized during Asoka's time.

              As regards whether the Buddha taught Abhidharma, let leave it at that.
              However, anyone interested in my research on how Abhidhamma "began"
              is welcome to read it:

              http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/01Abhidhammapiya.doc.

              My point remains: we cannot apply the nine angas as a set to all the Suttas.
              Maybe to the much later texts. Maybe even not those, but the whole anga
              system is post-Buddha.

              Even if we say "the Arhats" put the texts together, we do not know this
              first-hand. It is still pi.taka,sampadaaya.

              Anyway I still have no doubt about the Dharma, notwithstanding whether the
              Angas refer to the whole Canon or not.

              We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.

              With metta,

              Piya Tan




              The Minding Centre
              Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
              Singapore 650644
              Tel: 8211 0879
              Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
              Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Piya, Thanks for your mail. ... N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                Dear Piya,
                Thanks for your mail.
                Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

                > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                -----
                N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                anyway for writing,
                Nina.
                P.S. Your link did not work.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Piya Tan
                Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends, I m aware attachments won t work here. Here is a link (hope this is OK):
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                  Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends,

                  I'm aware attachments won't work here.

                  Here is a link (hope this is OK):

                  http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/26.1_DhammaAbhidhamma_piya.pdf

                  The previous one was broken, sorry.

                  Any problems, contact me, I will send the file personally.

                  With metta,

                  Piya Tan


                  On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                  > Dear Piya,
                  > Thanks for your mail.
                  > Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
                  >
                  >
                  > > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                  > -----
                  > N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                  > Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                  > welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                  > appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                  > In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                  > around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                  > books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                  > Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                  > anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                  > anyway for writing,
                  > Nina.
                  > P.S. Your link did not work.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  The Minding Centre
                  Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                  Singapore 650644
                  Tel: 8211 0879
                  Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                  Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • thomaslaw03
                  Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                    Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

                    Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                    support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                    you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                    refer to?

                    Thank you.

                    Thomas Law


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                    > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                    > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                    > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                    > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                    > difference in
                    > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                    > accurate ...
                    >
                    > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                    > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                    (simply)
                    > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                    > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                    > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                    > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                    to
                    > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                    (suta-
                    > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                    > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                    pa.tipadaa),
                    > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                    > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                    > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                    hetu".
                    > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                    >
                    > Mahinda Palihawadana
                    >
                  • Mahinda Palihawadana
                    Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
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                      Dear Thomas Law,

                      I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
                      CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
                      Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
                      volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
                      su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
                      is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
                      down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
                      Mahinda P.

                      On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                      > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
                      >
                      > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                      > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                      > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                      > refer to?
                      >
                      > Thank you.
                      >
                      > Thomas Law
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
                      > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                      > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                      > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                      > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                      > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                      > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                      > > difference in
                      > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                      > > accurate ...
                      > >
                      > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                      > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                      > (simply)
                      > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                      > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                      > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                      > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                      > to
                      > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                      > (suta-
                      > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                      > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                      > pa.tipadaa),
                      > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                      > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                      > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                      > hetu".
                      > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                      > >
                      > > Mahinda Palihawadana
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • thomaslaw03
                      Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
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                        Dear Pali friends,

                        In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                        list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                        angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

                        Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                        (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                        abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                        words of the text?

                        Thank you.

                        Thomas Law
                      • Kumaara Bhikkhu
                        The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                          The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

                          I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

                          Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

                          kb, who decided to drop by again

                          thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                          >Dear Pali friends,
                          >
                          >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                          >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                          >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                          >
                          >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                          >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                          >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                          >words of the text?
                          >
                          >Thank you.
                          >
                          >Thomas Law
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >------------------------------------
                          >
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                          peace2u,
                          kb

                          New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                          The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
                        • thomaslaw03
                          Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                            Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

                            Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                            only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                            the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                            in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                            four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                            entire set of nine?).

                            Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                            have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                            geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                            hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                            Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

                            Thank you.

                            Regards,

                            Thomas Law

                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                            >
                            > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                            set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                            an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                            to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                            editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                            that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                            >
                            > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                            says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                            for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                            >
                            > kb, who decided to drop by again
                            >
                            > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                            > >Dear Pali friends,
                            > >
                            > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                            has a
                            > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                            (i.e.
                            > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                            > >
                            > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                            > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                            > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                            the
                            > >words of the text?
                            > >
                            > >Thank you.
                            > >
                            > >Thomas Law
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                            > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                            > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                            > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                            > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                            > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                            digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > peace2u,
                            > kb
                            >
                            > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                            > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                            expire some time next year.
                            >
                          • Mahinda Palihawadana
                            Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Thomas Law,
                              In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                              veyyaakara.na.m".

                              Mahinda

                              On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                              > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                              >
                              > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                              > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                              > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                              > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                              > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                              > entire set of nine?).
                              >
                              > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                              > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                              > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                              > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                              > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                              >
                              > Thank you.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Thomas Law
                              >
                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                              > >
                              > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                              > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                              > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                              > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                              > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                              > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                              > >
                              > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                              > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                              > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                              > >
                              > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                              > >
                              > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                              > > >Dear Pali friends,
                              > > >
                              > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                              > has a
                              > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                              > (i.e.
                              > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                              > > >
                              > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                              > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                              > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                              > the
                              > > >words of the text?
                              > > >
                              > > >Thank you.
                              > > >
                              > > >Thomas Law
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >------------------------------------
                              > > >
                              > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                              > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                              > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                              > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                              > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                              > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > peace2u,
                              > > kb
                              > >
                              > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                              > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                              > expire some time next year.
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • thomaslaw03
                              Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                                Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                                edition.

                                A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                                The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                                saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                                sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                                I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                                someone here can help to confirm the words.

                                Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                                Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                                the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                                closely the Sinhala edition?)

                                Thank you.

                                Thomas Law

                                P.S.:

                                PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                                anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                                vol. 111, p. 115)

                                CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                                (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                                "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Thomas Law,
                                > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                                > veyyaakara.na.m".
                                >
                                > Mahinda
                                >
                                > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                                >
                                > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                                > >
                                > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                                the
                                > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                                found
                                > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                                the
                                > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                > > entire set of nine?).
                                > >
                                > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                                sutta.m
                                > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                                veyyakara.nassa
                                > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                                the
                                > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                                > >
                                > > Thank you.
                                > >
                                > > Regards,
                                > >
                                > > Thomas Law
                                > >
                                > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                                Bhikkhu <yg@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                > > >
                                > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                                through
                                > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                                even
                                > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                                say
                                > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                > > >
                                > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                                Karanapali
                                > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                                gone
                                > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                                Huh?
                                > > >
                                > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                > > >
                                > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                                > > > >
                                > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                                it
                                > > has a
                                > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                                abbhutadhamma
                                > > (i.e.
                                > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                                (8)
                                > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                                on
                                > > the
                                > > > >words of the text?
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Thank you.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >Thomas Law
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >------------------------------------
                                > > > >
                                > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                > > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                > > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                > > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                > > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                > > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                > > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > peace2u,
                                > > > kb
                                > > >
                                > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                                > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                                > > expire some time next year.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
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