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Re: [Pali] Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Thomas, ... Instead of veyyakara.nassa hetu , the CSCD version reads veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu . I think the latter is the correct one. ... I think the
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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      Dear Thomas,

      >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
      >>
      >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
      >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''

      Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version reads "veyyaakara.na.m
      tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.

      >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a disciple
      >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an exposition
      >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
      >>
      >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: '' Ananda,
      >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
      >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      >>
      >> My questions are:
      >>
      >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are in
      >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
      >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      >>
      >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese versions
      >> record the original words?

      I think the two readings as noted above account for the main difference in
      the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more accurate,
      though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence translates
      literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
      on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and exposition."
      The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this statement
      and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on account of
      such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta, geyya, etc.

      Best wishes,
      Jim
    • Piya Tan
      Dear Nina & Pali friends, Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually, as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It; s good to have a
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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        Dear Nina & Pali friends,

        Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually,
        as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It;'s good to have a head, and of
        course,
        a heart, too.


        On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        > When it is said sutta, geyya, it is the beginning of a well known
        > series, all nine angas are included.
        >





        I still have a problem with this statement you (and the Commentaries) made:
        Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
        Buddha started teaching?

        The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could have
        evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
        audience
        was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.

        But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the world as the
        nine
        angas as a full set.

        I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

        My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
        "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
        reason
        to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

        This then becomes dogma.

        With metta,

        Piya


        --
        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        Tel: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • thomaslaw03
        Dear Jim, Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence. It is good to know
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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          Dear Jim,

          Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD
          version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence.

          It is good to know that you prefer to choose the translation from
          Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as being more accurate than
          Horner's. According to you, the sentence from the CSCD version is
          translated literally as:

          "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
          on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
          exposition." (Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
          anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu)

          A person emailed me that the corresponding Chinese version, MA 191 (T
          1, 739c4), also records the three terms clearly (prose, prose and
          verse, and exposition). This is very interesting. But I am unable to
          confirm this information for sure.

          Thank you to all.

          Sincerely,

          Thomas Law

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Thomas,
          >
          > >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
          > >>
          > >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
          > >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
          >
          > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
          reads "veyyaakara.na.m
          > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
          >
          > >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a
          disciple
          > >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an
          exposition
          > >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
          > >>
          > >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: ''
          Ananda,
          > >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
          > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
          > >>
          > >> My questions are:
          > >>
          > >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are
          in
          > >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
          > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
          > >>
          > >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese
          versions
          > >> record the original words?
          >
          > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
          difference in
          > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
          accurate,
          > though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence
          translates
          > literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow
          the teacher
          > on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
          exposition."
          > The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this
          statement
          > and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on
          account of
          > such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta,
          geyya, etc.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          > Jim
          >
        • mahipaliha
          ... reads veyyaakara.na.m ... difference in ... accurate ... The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying that a monk should not run
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
            > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
            reads "veyyaakara.na.m
            > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
            > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
            difference in
            > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
            accurate ...

            The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
            that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of (simply)
            learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
            expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
            elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
            compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'- to
            a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning (suta-
            pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
            accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma pa.tipadaa),
            i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
            ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
            you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu".
            It still looks an awkward wording, of course.

            Mahinda Palihawadana
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Piya, Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven: Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the Buddha started
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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              Dear Piya,

              Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
              Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
              Buddha started teaching?

              The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
              have
              evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
              audience
              was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
              --------
              N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
              ready. There were so many arahats.
              As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
              whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
              Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
              It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
              order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
              rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
              such as in our case.
              ----------

              P: But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the
              world as the
              nine angas as a full set.
              -------
              N: But when we read them in certain suttas they were there at that
              time. Perhaps not the first year of his teaching, but later on, we
              are not able to know now.
              -----------

              P: I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

              My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
              "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
              reason to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

              This then becomes dogma.
              ---------
              N: As to Veyyakara.na, the Atthasaalinii explains: < The entire
              Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the
              Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
              Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.>
              He taught Abhidhamma from the beginning but we also know that
              Saariputta, the General of the Dhamma , systematizised the Abhidhamma.

              You want to beware of dogma, but there is no danger if we see that
              the essence of the teachings is not theoretical. Whatever we read, be
              it a Tipi.ta text or commentary or tiika, we always have to ask
              ourselves: how can this help me now, in the development of
              understanding of this very moment? Otherwise all our study would be
              mogha. Whatever I read or translate, I really try to get the meaning
              relevant to this moment of my life.
              I like the following sutta, where all the nine angas are mentioned:

              Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Fours, XIX, 186) �Approach� (Ummagga)

              On the meaning of �mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
              heart:

              �...�Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
              Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
              understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
              stanza
              of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
              well be called �one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.��
              --------
              Nina.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Piya Tan
              Dear Nina and Pali friends, That s quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point. ... My main question regarding the history (as you put it)
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                Dear Nina and Pali friends,

                That's quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point.

                On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                > Dear Piya,
                >
                > Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:


                > Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
                > Buddha started teaching?
                >
                > The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
                > have
                > evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
                > audience
                > was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
                > --------
                > N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
                > ready. There were so many arahats.
                > As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
                > whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
                > Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
                > It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
                > order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
                > rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
                > such as in our case.
                > ----------


                My main question regarding the "history" (as you put it) remains. It's
                obvious
                from the Vinaya stories and early Suttas that the Buddha gradually
                introduced
                the Dharma to the world.

                Even the First Council did not put together everything. For example, the
                Kathavatthu which was canonized during Asoka's time.

                As regards whether the Buddha taught Abhidharma, let leave it at that.
                However, anyone interested in my research on how Abhidhamma "began"
                is welcome to read it:

                http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/01Abhidhammapiya.doc.

                My point remains: we cannot apply the nine angas as a set to all the Suttas.
                Maybe to the much later texts. Maybe even not those, but the whole anga
                system is post-Buddha.

                Even if we say "the Arhats" put the texts together, we do not know this
                first-hand. It is still pi.taka,sampadaaya.

                Anyway I still have no doubt about the Dharma, notwithstanding whether the
                Angas refer to the whole Canon or not.

                We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.

                With metta,

                Piya Tan




                The Minding Centre
                Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                Singapore 650644
                Tel: 8211 0879
                Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Piya, Thanks for your mail. ... N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                  Dear Piya,
                  Thanks for your mail.
                  Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

                  > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                  -----
                  N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                  Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                  welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                  appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                  In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                  around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                  books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                  Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                  anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                  anyway for writing,
                  Nina.
                  P.S. Your link did not work.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Piya Tan
                  Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends, I m aware attachments won t work here. Here is a link (hope this is OK):
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                    Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends,

                    I'm aware attachments won't work here.

                    Here is a link (hope this is OK):

                    http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/26.1_DhammaAbhidhamma_piya.pdf

                    The previous one was broken, sorry.

                    Any problems, contact me, I will send the file personally.

                    With metta,

                    Piya Tan


                    On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                    > Dear Piya,
                    > Thanks for your mail.
                    > Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
                    >
                    >
                    > > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                    > -----
                    > N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                    > Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                    > welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                    > appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                    > In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                    > around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                    > books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                    > Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                    > anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                    > anyway for writing,
                    > Nina.
                    > P.S. Your link did not work.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    --
                    The Minding Centre
                    Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                    Singapore 650644
                    Tel: 8211 0879
                    Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                    Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • thomaslaw03
                    Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                      Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

                      Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                      support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                      you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                      refer to?

                      Thank you.

                      Thomas Law


                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                      > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                      > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                      > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                      > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                      > difference in
                      > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                      > accurate ...
                      >
                      > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                      > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                      (simply)
                      > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                      > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                      > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                      > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                      to
                      > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                      (suta-
                      > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                      > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                      pa.tipadaa),
                      > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                      > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                      > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                      hetu".
                      > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                      >
                      > Mahinda Palihawadana
                      >
                    • Mahinda Palihawadana
                      Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
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                        Dear Thomas Law,

                        I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
                        CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
                        Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
                        volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
                        su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
                        is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
                        down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
                        Mahinda P.

                        On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                        > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
                        >
                        > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                        > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                        > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                        > refer to?
                        >
                        > Thank you.
                        >
                        > Thomas Law
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
                        > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                        > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                        > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                        > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                        > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                        > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                        > > difference in
                        > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                        > > accurate ...
                        > >
                        > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                        > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                        > (simply)
                        > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                        > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                        > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                        > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                        > to
                        > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                        > (suta-
                        > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                        > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                        > pa.tipadaa),
                        > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                        > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                        > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                        > hetu".
                        > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                        > >
                        > > Mahinda Palihawadana
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • thomaslaw03
                        Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
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                          Dear Pali friends,

                          In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                          list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                          angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

                          Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                          (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                          abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                          words of the text?

                          Thank you.

                          Thomas Law
                        • Kumaara Bhikkhu
                          The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                            The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

                            I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

                            Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

                            kb, who decided to drop by again

                            thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                            >Dear Pali friends,
                            >
                            >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                            >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                            >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                            >
                            >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                            >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                            >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                            >words of the text?
                            >
                            >Thank you.
                            >
                            >Thomas Law
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >------------------------------------
                            >
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                            peace2u,
                            kb

                            New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                            The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
                          • thomaslaw03
                            Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                              Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

                              Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                              only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                              the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                              in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                              four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                              entire set of nine?).

                              Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                              have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                              geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                              hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                              Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

                              Thank you.

                              Regards,

                              Thomas Law

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                              >
                              > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                              set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                              an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                              to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                              editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                              that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                              >
                              > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                              says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                              for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                              >
                              > kb, who decided to drop by again
                              >
                              > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                              > >Dear Pali friends,
                              > >
                              > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                              has a
                              > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                              (i.e.
                              > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                              > >
                              > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                              > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                              > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                              the
                              > >words of the text?
                              > >
                              > >Thank you.
                              > >
                              > >Thomas Law
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >------------------------------------
                              > >
                              > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                              > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                              > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                              > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                              > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                              > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                              digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > peace2u,
                              > kb
                              >
                              > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                              > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                              expire some time next year.
                              >
                            • Mahinda Palihawadana
                              Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
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                                Dear Thomas Law,
                                In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                                veyyaakara.na.m".

                                Mahinda

                                On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                                > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                                >
                                > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                                > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                                > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                                > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                > entire set of nine?).
                                >
                                > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                                > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                                > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                                > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                                >
                                > Thank you.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                >
                                > Thomas Law
                                >
                                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                > >
                                > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                                > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                                > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                                > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                > >
                                > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                                > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                                > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                                > >
                                > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                > >
                                > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                > > >Dear Pali friends,
                                > > >
                                > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                                > has a
                                > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                                > (i.e.
                                > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                > > >
                                > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                                > the
                                > > >words of the text?
                                > > >
                                > > >Thank you.
                                > > >
                                > > >Thomas Law
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >------------------------------------
                                > > >
                                > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > peace2u,
                                > > kb
                                > >
                                > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                                > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                                > expire some time next year.
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • thomaslaw03
                                Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
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                                  Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                                  Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                                  edition.

                                  A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                                  The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                                  saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                                  sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                                  I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                                  someone here can help to confirm the words.

                                  Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                                  Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                                  the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                                  closely the Sinhala edition?)

                                  Thank you.

                                  Thomas Law

                                  P.S.:

                                  PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                                  anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                                  vol. 111, p. 115)

                                  CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                                  (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                                  "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Thomas Law,
                                  > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                                  > veyyaakara.na.m".
                                  >
                                  > Mahinda
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                                  the
                                  > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                  > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                                  found
                                  > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                                  the
                                  > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                  > > entire set of nine?).
                                  > >
                                  > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                  > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                                  sutta.m
                                  > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                                  veyyakara.nassa
                                  > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                                  the
                                  > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you.
                                  > >
                                  > > Regards,
                                  > >
                                  > > Thomas Law
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                                  Bhikkhu <yg@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                  > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                                  through
                                  > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                                  even
                                  > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                  > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                                  say
                                  > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                                  Karanapali
                                  > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                                  gone
                                  > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                                  Huh?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                  > > >
                                  > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                  > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                                  it
                                  > > has a
                                  > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                                  abbhutadhamma
                                  > > (i.e.
                                  > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                  > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                                  (8)
                                  > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                                  on
                                  > > the
                                  > > > >words of the text?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >Thank you.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >Thomas Law
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >------------------------------------
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                  > > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                  > > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                  > > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                  > > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                  > > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                  > > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > peace2u,
                                  > > > kb
                                  > > >
                                  > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                                  > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                                  > > expire some time next year.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
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