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Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

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  • Piya Tan
    Thomas, This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I think sutta and geyyaa here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 1, 2008
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      Thomas,

      This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I think
      sutta and geyyaa
      here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the formalized
      collections of
      sutta, geyyaa, etc (which is late). As such, I take these terms historically
      as simply
      referring to the mostly non-Buddhist sutras (formulas) and geyas (hymns) of
      the day.

      Please refer to:

      http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/M122_Maha_Sunnata_S_sd11.4.pdf

      Any other opinion is welcome on this point.

      With metta,

      Piya Tan


      On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

      > On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
      >
      >> Dear Piya, could post the following message to the Pali group?
      >> Thanks. Thomas Law.
      >>
      >> Dear Pali friends,
      >>
      >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
      >>
      >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
      >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
      >>
      >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a disciple
      >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an exposition
      >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
      >>
      >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: '' Ananda,
      >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
      >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      >>
      >> My questions are:
      >>
      >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are in
      >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
      >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      >>
      >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese versions
      >> record the original words?
      >>
      >> Thank you.
      >>
      >> Thomas Law
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > --
      > The Minding Centre
      > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
      > Singapore 650644
      > Tel: 8211 0879
      > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
      > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
      >



      --
      The Minding Centre
      Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
      Singapore 650644
      Tel: 8211 0879
      Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
      Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Piya and Thomas, ... N: On the dsg list Sarah Abbot, gave Thomas some extracts of texts which may be of interest to others as well. The first is from Jim.
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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        Dear Piya and Thomas,
        Op 2-okt-2008, om 5:16 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

        > This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I
        > think
        > sutta and geyyaa
        > here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the
        > formalized
        > collections of
        > sutta, geyyaa, etc (which is late). As such, I take these terms
        > historically
        > as simply
        > referring to the mostly non-Buddhist sutras (formulas) and geyas
        > (hymns) of
        > the day.
        -----------
        N: On the dsg list Sarah Abbot, gave Thomas some extracts of texts
        which may be of interest to others as well. The first is from Jim.
        1) Jim A:
        >According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine
        (or in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times
        in the Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka.

        1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I
        133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that
        in this sutta only the first three are given.
        2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in
        the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the
        Book of Sevens.
        3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas.
        4. Once in the Vibhanga.
        5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti.<
        *****
        Sarah: >...Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.), N:
        this is the Co to the first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasanganii.

        "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,
        Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla.

        "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and
        Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta,
        Tuva.takasutta of
        the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the
        name
        of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta.

        "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In
        particular,
        all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya.

        "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other
        words
        of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
        Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.

        "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the
        Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as
        Gaathaa.

        "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy
        should be understood as Udaana.

        "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said
        by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka....

        "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka
        constitute
        the Jaataka.

        "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken
        in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things
        in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta.

        "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated
        attainment
        of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla,
        Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the
        nine
        parts."<
        *****

        3) Sarah:
        >'Heard with the Ear' (AN, 4s, 191, PTS)

        " �Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal
        practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana"m), from
        considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view.
        What are the four?

        Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and
        the
        rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*.
        Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered
        by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.'"
        .....
        [S: digression from 4s, 186 �Approach' (Ummagga)

        On the meaning of �mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
        heart:

        "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
        Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
        understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
        stanza
        of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
        well be called �one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.'"<
        ****
        4) Jon:
        >Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24

        (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs,
        [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels,
        and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of
        law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the
        meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was
        said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ...

        idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m.
        aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa.
        so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati
        `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti.
        aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa.<
        *****
        5) Sarah:
        >...the 'Alagadduupama Sutta'. The simile of the snake starts with
        these lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation).

        "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses,
        stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories,
        marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma,
        they do
        not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom."

        So what is included here within the Dhamma are (from the Pali):
        "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka,
        abbhutadhamma, and vedalla."

        All the Pitakas are included in the 9 angas
        as clarified in the point above.<
        *****
        (end of quotes).

        Nina.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        Dear Nina, If we take the Buddhist TEXTS as a collection as it is today (like the Bible), it is easy to follow and accept what you have presented. For a few
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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          Dear Nina,

          If we take the Buddhist TEXTS as a collection as it is today (like the
          Bible), it
          is easy to follow and accept what you have presented. For a few centuries at

          least the early Buddhist "texts" were a floating tradition. Most
          importantly, these
          texts were the work of various redactors (sangitikara) and reciters
          (bhanakara)
          who were retelling, contextualizing and presenting teachings and events.

          I have often wondered if the Buddha, for example, ever spoke in such
          repetitive manner
          as presented in many of the Suttas. These conventions (like computer
          programmes)
          were introduced later for the purpose of transmitting the teachings as the
          reciters,
          etc, held them.

          In other words, the Pali texts are not the ipsissima verba of the Buddha.
          Indeed, one
          of the first things I was corrected as a monk in Thailand was that the
          Buddha did
          not speak Pali.

          I accept these are the best texts we have in most cases, but no WORD is
          final in
          Buddhist training (as stated in the parable of the raft in the Alaggadupama
          Sutta etc).
          With meditation, and some level of meditative insight, we are
          word-worshippers at best.

          Coming now to the problem at hand. Frankly, if we are simply book-based or
          text-
          based, I suppose we should interpret "sutta" and "geyya" in the Maha Sunnata
          Sutta
          context as actual texts (part of the 9 angas),

          Why are only "Sutta" and "Geyya" mentioned, and not the rest of the nine (or
          twelve,
          according to Mahayana) "teachings" listed. It is very likely that this Sutta
          belongs to
          an early stratum.

          The next question is: What is the Sutta (the Buddha) trying to say here? We
          must be
          careful not to present Buddhism as if it is in a cultural vacuum. Often the
          Buddha
          would be using well known current Indian religious terms, and adapting them
          to his
          teachings.

          Having said that, I think we can interpret the interesting passage (M 3:15)
          in two ways:

          (1) Not to follow the teacher purely for academic learning ("sutras and
          geyas"), or
          simply as textual knowledge (which may in a way reflect Pali Yahoo Group
          sometimes);

          (2) Not to merely learn the Suttas and Geyyas (restricted interpretation).

          (3) Probably (1) + (2).

          Anyway, I hope I am not politically incorrect, is reminding ourselves not to
          take the
          Pali texts as the Bible. There must be a balance between the spirit and the
          letter, but
          the spirit (attha) must prevail.

          Anyway, thanks for the lengthy references which I will continue to reflect
          onm, along
          with the insights of the meditation teachers, too, (and my own meditation).

          I am reminded of a beautiful story: it is said that once a famous Thai woman
          Abhidhamma
          teacher (Ajahn Sujin?) went to see Ajahn Chah, and asked him what sort of
          Abhidhamma
          he teaches. Ajahn Chah simply put his palm on his chest, smiling, without
          uttering a word.

          Let's always remember the heart of the matter.

          With metta,

          Piya Tan



          On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

          > Dear Piya and Thomas,
          > Op 2-okt-2008, om 5:16 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I
          > > think
          > > sutta and geyyaa
          > > here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the
          > > formalized
          > > collections of
          > > sutta, geyyaa, etc (which is late). As such, I take these terms
          > > historically
          > > as simply
          > > referring to the mostly non-Buddhist sutras (formulas) and geyas
          > > (hymns) of
          > > the day.
          > -----------
          > N: On the dsg list Sarah Abbot, gave Thomas some extracts of texts
          > which may be of interest to others as well. The first is from Jim.
          > 1) Jim A:
          > >According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine
          > (or in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times
          > in the Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka.
          >
          > 1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I
          > 133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that
          > in this sutta only the first three are given.
          > 2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in
          > the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the
          > Book of Sevens.
          > 3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas.
          > 4. Once in the Vibhanga.
          > 5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti.<
          > *****
          > Sarah: >...Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.), N:
          > this is the Co to the first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasanganii.
          >
          > "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,
          > Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla.
          >
          > "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and
          > Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta,
          > Tuva.takasutta of
          > the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the
          > name
          > of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta.
          >
          > "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In
          > particular,
          > all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya.
          >
          > "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other
          > words
          > of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
          > Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.
          >
          > "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the
          > Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as
          > Gaathaa.
          >
          > "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy
          > should be understood as Udaana.
          >
          > "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said
          > by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka....
          >
          > "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka
          > constitute
          > the Jaataka.
          >
          > "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken
          > in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things
          > in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta.
          >
          > "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated
          > attainment
          > of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla,
          > Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the
          > nine
          > parts."<
          > *****
          >
          > 3) Sarah:
          > >'Heard with the Ear' (AN, 4s, 191, PTS)
          >
          > " 'Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal
          > practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana"m), from
          > considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view.
          > What are the four?
          >
          > Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and
          > the
          > rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*.
          > Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered
          > by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.'"
          > .....
          > [S: digression from 4s, 186 'Approach' (Ummagga)
          >
          > On the meaning of 'mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
          > heart:
          >
          > "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
          > Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
          > understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
          > stanza
          > of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
          > well be called 'one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.'"<
          > ****
          > 4) Jon:
          > >Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24
          >
          > (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs,
          > [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels,
          > and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of
          > law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the
          > meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was
          > said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ...
          >
          > idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m.
          > aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa.
          > so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati
          > `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti.
          > aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa.<
          > *****
          > 5) Sarah:
          > >...the 'Alagadduupama Sutta'. The simile of the snake starts with
          > these lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation).
          >
          > "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses,
          > stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories,
          > marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma,
          > they do
          > not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom."
          >
          > So what is included here within the Dhamma are (from the Pali):
          > "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka,
          > abbhutadhamma, and vedalla."
          >
          > All the Pitakas are included in the 9 angas
          > as clarified in the point above.<
          > *****
          > (end of quotes).
          >
          > Nina.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
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          --
          The Minding Centre
          Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
          Singapore 650644
          Tel: 8211 0879
          Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
          Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Piya, thank you for your mail and personal impressions. I can understand how you feel, you can express your thoughts very well. I cannot go into all of
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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            Dear Piya,
            thank you for your mail and personal impressions. I can understand
            how you feel, you can express your thoughts very well. I cannot go
            into all of your points.
            When it is said sutta, geyya, it is the beginning of a well known
            series, all nine angas are included.
            Repetitions are helpful for those who learn the texts by heart. But
            there is another matter. I am so hardheaded, so forgetful, and for me
            repetitions are most effective. It helps me wake up! I can hear again
            and again: seeing is not self, hearing is not self, etc.
            To me all these texts are not mere theory, all of them pertain to our
            life. And yes, the Abhidhamma is about reality that should be taken
            to heart. Achan Cha's gesture is significant, pointing to his heart.
            Not a valley of dry bones.
            Nina.
            Op 2-okt-2008, om 11:58 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

            > f we take the Buddhist TEXTS as a collection as it is today (like the
            > Bible), it
            > is easy to follow and accept what you have presented.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim Anderson
            Dear Thomas, ... Instead of veyyakara.nassa hetu , the CSCD version reads veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu . I think the latter is the correct one. ... I think the
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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              Dear Thomas,

              >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
              >>
              >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
              >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''

              Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version reads "veyyaakara.na.m
              tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.

              >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a disciple
              >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an exposition
              >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
              >>
              >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: '' Ananda,
              >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
              >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
              >>
              >> My questions are:
              >>
              >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are in
              >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
              >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
              >>
              >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese versions
              >> record the original words?

              I think the two readings as noted above account for the main difference in
              the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more accurate,
              though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence translates
              literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
              on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and exposition."
              The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this statement
              and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on account of
              such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta, geyya, etc.

              Best wishes,
              Jim
            • Piya Tan
              Dear Nina & Pali friends, Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually, as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It; s good to have a
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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                Dear Nina & Pali friends,

                Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually,
                as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It;'s good to have a head, and of
                course,
                a heart, too.


                On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                > When it is said sutta, geyya, it is the beginning of a well known
                > series, all nine angas are included.
                >





                I still have a problem with this statement you (and the Commentaries) made:
                Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
                Buddha started teaching?

                The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could have
                evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
                audience
                was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.

                But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the world as the
                nine
                angas as a full set.

                I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

                My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
                "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
                reason
                to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

                This then becomes dogma.

                With metta,

                Piya


                --
                The Minding Centre
                Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                Singapore 650644
                Tel: 8211 0879
                Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • thomaslaw03
                Dear Jim, Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence. It is good to know
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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                  Dear Jim,

                  Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD
                  version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence.

                  It is good to know that you prefer to choose the translation from
                  Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as being more accurate than
                  Horner's. According to you, the sentence from the CSCD version is
                  translated literally as:

                  "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
                  on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
                  exposition." (Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                  anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu)

                  A person emailed me that the corresponding Chinese version, MA 191 (T
                  1, 739c4), also records the three terms clearly (prose, prose and
                  verse, and exposition). This is very interesting. But I am unable to
                  confirm this information for sure.

                  Thank you to all.

                  Sincerely,

                  Thomas Law

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Thomas,
                  >
                  > >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
                  > >>
                  > >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
                  > >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
                  >
                  > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                  reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                  > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                  >
                  > >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a
                  disciple
                  > >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an
                  exposition
                  > >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
                  > >>
                  > >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: ''
                  Ananda,
                  > >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
                  > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
                  > >>
                  > >> My questions are:
                  > >>
                  > >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are
                  in
                  > >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
                  > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
                  > >>
                  > >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese
                  versions
                  > >> record the original words?
                  >
                  > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                  difference in
                  > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                  accurate,
                  > though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence
                  translates
                  > literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow
                  the teacher
                  > on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
                  exposition."
                  > The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this
                  statement
                  > and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on
                  account of
                  > such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta,
                  geyya, etc.
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  > Jim
                  >
                • mahipaliha
                  ... reads veyyaakara.na.m ... difference in ... accurate ... The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying that a monk should not run
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                    > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                    reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                    > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                    > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                    difference in
                    > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                    accurate ...

                    The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                    that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of (simply)
                    learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                    expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                    elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                    compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'- to
                    a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning (suta-
                    pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                    accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma pa.tipadaa),
                    i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                    ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                    you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu".
                    It still looks an awkward wording, of course.

                    Mahinda Palihawadana
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Piya, Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven: Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the Buddha started
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                      Dear Piya,

                      Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
                      Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
                      Buddha started teaching?

                      The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
                      have
                      evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
                      audience
                      was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
                      --------
                      N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
                      ready. There were so many arahats.
                      As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
                      whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
                      Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
                      It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
                      order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
                      rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
                      such as in our case.
                      ----------

                      P: But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the
                      world as the
                      nine angas as a full set.
                      -------
                      N: But when we read them in certain suttas they were there at that
                      time. Perhaps not the first year of his teaching, but later on, we
                      are not able to know now.
                      -----------

                      P: I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

                      My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
                      "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
                      reason to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

                      This then becomes dogma.
                      ---------
                      N: As to Veyyakara.na, the Atthasaalinii explains: < The entire
                      Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the
                      Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
                      Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.>
                      He taught Abhidhamma from the beginning but we also know that
                      Saariputta, the General of the Dhamma , systematizised the Abhidhamma.

                      You want to beware of dogma, but there is no danger if we see that
                      the essence of the teachings is not theoretical. Whatever we read, be
                      it a Tipi.ta text or commentary or tiika, we always have to ask
                      ourselves: how can this help me now, in the development of
                      understanding of this very moment? Otherwise all our study would be
                      mogha. Whatever I read or translate, I really try to get the meaning
                      relevant to this moment of my life.
                      I like the following sutta, where all the nine angas are mentioned:

                      Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Fours, XIX, 186) �Approach� (Ummagga)

                      On the meaning of �mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
                      heart:

                      �...�Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
                      Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
                      understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
                      stanza
                      of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
                      well be called �one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.��
                      --------
                      Nina.





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Piya Tan
                      Dear Nina and Pali friends, That s quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point. ... My main question regarding the history (as you put it)
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                        Dear Nina and Pali friends,

                        That's quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point.

                        On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                        > Dear Piya,
                        >
                        > Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:


                        > Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
                        > Buddha started teaching?
                        >
                        > The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
                        > have
                        > evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
                        > audience
                        > was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
                        > --------
                        > N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
                        > ready. There were so many arahats.
                        > As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
                        > whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
                        > Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
                        > It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
                        > order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
                        > rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
                        > such as in our case.
                        > ----------


                        My main question regarding the "history" (as you put it) remains. It's
                        obvious
                        from the Vinaya stories and early Suttas that the Buddha gradually
                        introduced
                        the Dharma to the world.

                        Even the First Council did not put together everything. For example, the
                        Kathavatthu which was canonized during Asoka's time.

                        As regards whether the Buddha taught Abhidharma, let leave it at that.
                        However, anyone interested in my research on how Abhidhamma "began"
                        is welcome to read it:

                        http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/01Abhidhammapiya.doc.

                        My point remains: we cannot apply the nine angas as a set to all the Suttas.
                        Maybe to the much later texts. Maybe even not those, but the whole anga
                        system is post-Buddha.

                        Even if we say "the Arhats" put the texts together, we do not know this
                        first-hand. It is still pi.taka,sampadaaya.

                        Anyway I still have no doubt about the Dharma, notwithstanding whether the
                        Angas refer to the whole Canon or not.

                        We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.

                        With metta,

                        Piya Tan




                        The Minding Centre
                        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                        Singapore 650644
                        Tel: 8211 0879
                        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Piya, Thanks for your mail. ... N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                          Dear Piya,
                          Thanks for your mail.
                          Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

                          > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                          -----
                          N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                          Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                          welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                          appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                          In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                          around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                          books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                          Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                          anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                          anyway for writing,
                          Nina.
                          P.S. Your link did not work.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Piya Tan
                          Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends, I m aware attachments won t work here. Here is a link (hope this is OK):
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                            Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends,

                            I'm aware attachments won't work here.

                            Here is a link (hope this is OK):

                            http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/26.1_DhammaAbhidhamma_piya.pdf

                            The previous one was broken, sorry.

                            Any problems, contact me, I will send the file personally.

                            With metta,

                            Piya Tan


                            On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                            > Dear Piya,
                            > Thanks for your mail.
                            > Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
                            >
                            >
                            > > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                            > -----
                            > N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                            > Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                            > welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                            > appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                            > In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                            > around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                            > books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                            > Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                            > anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                            > anyway for writing,
                            > Nina.
                            > P.S. Your link did not work.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            The Minding Centre
                            Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                            Singapore 650644
                            Tel: 8211 0879
                            Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                            Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • thomaslaw03
                            Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                              Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

                              Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                              support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                              you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                              refer to?

                              Thank you.

                              Thomas Law


                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                              > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                              > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                              > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                              > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                              > difference in
                              > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                              > accurate ...
                              >
                              > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                              > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                              (simply)
                              > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                              > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                              > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                              > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                              to
                              > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                              (suta-
                              > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                              > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                              pa.tipadaa),
                              > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                              > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                              > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                              hetu".
                              > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                              >
                              > Mahinda Palihawadana
                              >
                            • Mahinda Palihawadana
                              Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                Dear Thomas Law,

                                I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
                                CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
                                Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
                                volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
                                su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
                                is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
                                down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
                                Mahinda P.

                                On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                                > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
                                >
                                > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                                > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                                > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                                > refer to?
                                >
                                > Thank you.
                                >
                                > Thomas Law
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
                                > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                                > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                                > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                                > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                                > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                                > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                                > > difference in
                                > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                                > > accurate ...
                                > >
                                > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                                > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                                > (simply)
                                > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                                > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                                > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                                > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                                > to
                                > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                                > (suta-
                                > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                                > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                                > pa.tipadaa),
                                > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                                > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                                > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                                > hetu".
                                > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                                > >
                                > > Mahinda Palihawadana
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • thomaslaw03
                                Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
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                                  Dear Pali friends,

                                  In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                                  list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                                  angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

                                  Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                  (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                  abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                                  words of the text?

                                  Thank you.

                                  Thomas Law
                                • Kumaara Bhikkhu
                                  The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                                    The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

                                    I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

                                    Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

                                    kb, who decided to drop by again

                                    thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                    >Dear Pali friends,
                                    >
                                    >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                                    >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                                    >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                    >
                                    >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                    >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                    >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                                    >words of the text?
                                    >
                                    >Thank you.
                                    >
                                    >Thomas Law
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                    >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                    >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    peace2u,
                                    kb

                                    New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                                    The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
                                  • thomaslaw03
                                    Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                                      Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

                                      Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                                      only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                      the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                                      in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                                      four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                      entire set of nine?).

                                      Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                      have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                                      geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                                      hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                                      Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

                                      Thank you.

                                      Regards,

                                      Thomas Law

                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                      >
                                      > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                      set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                                      an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                                      to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                      editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                                      that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                      >
                                      > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                                      says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                                      for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                                      >
                                      > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                      >
                                      > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                      > >Dear Pali friends,
                                      > >
                                      > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                                      has a
                                      > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                                      (i.e.
                                      > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                      > >
                                      > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                      > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                      > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                                      the
                                      > >words of the text?
                                      > >
                                      > >Thank you.
                                      > >
                                      > >Thomas Law
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >------------------------------------
                                      > >
                                      > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                      > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                      > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                      > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                      > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                      > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                      digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > peace2u,
                                      > kb
                                      >
                                      > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                                      > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                                      expire some time next year.
                                      >
                                    • Mahinda Palihawadana
                                      Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
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                                        Dear Thomas Law,
                                        In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                                        veyyaakara.na.m".

                                        Mahinda

                                        On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                                        > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                                        >
                                        > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                                        > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                        > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                                        > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                                        > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                        > entire set of nine?).
                                        >
                                        > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                        > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                                        > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                                        > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                                        > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                                        >
                                        > Thank you.
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        >
                                        > Thomas Law
                                        >
                                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                        > >
                                        > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                        > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                                        > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                                        > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                        > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                                        > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                                        > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                                        > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                                        > >
                                        > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                        > >
                                        > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                        > > >Dear Pali friends,
                                        > > >
                                        > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                                        > has a
                                        > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                                        > (i.e.
                                        > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                        > > >
                                        > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                        > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                        > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                                        > the
                                        > > >words of the text?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >Thank you.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >Thomas Law
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >------------------------------------
                                        > > >
                                        > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                        > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                        > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                        > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                        > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                        > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                        > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > peace2u,
                                        > > kb
                                        > >
                                        > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                                        > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                                        > expire some time next year.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • thomaslaw03
                                        Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
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                                          Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                                          Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                                          edition.

                                          A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                                          The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                                          saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                                          sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                                          I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                                          someone here can help to confirm the words.

                                          Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                                          Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                                          the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                                          closely the Sinhala edition?)

                                          Thank you.

                                          Thomas Law

                                          P.S.:

                                          PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                                          anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                                          vol. 111, p. 115)

                                          CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                                          (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                                          "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Thomas Law,
                                          > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                                          > veyyaakara.na.m".
                                          >
                                          > Mahinda
                                          >
                                          > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                                          > >
                                          > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                                          the
                                          > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                          > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                                          found
                                          > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                                          the
                                          > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                          > > entire set of nine?).
                                          > >
                                          > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                          > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                                          sutta.m
                                          > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                                          veyyakara.nassa
                                          > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                                          the
                                          > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                                          > >
                                          > > Thank you.
                                          > >
                                          > > Regards,
                                          > >
                                          > > Thomas Law
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                                          Bhikkhu <yg@>
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                          > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                                          through
                                          > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                                          even
                                          > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                          > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                                          say
                                          > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                                          Karanapali
                                          > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                                          gone
                                          > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                                          Huh?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                          > > >
                                          > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                          > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                                          it
                                          > > has a
                                          > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                                          abbhutadhamma
                                          > > (i.e.
                                          > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                          > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                                          (8)
                                          > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                                          on
                                          > > the
                                          > > > >words of the text?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >Thank you.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >Thomas Law
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >------------------------------------
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                          > > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                          > > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                          > > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                          > > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                          > > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                          > > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > peace2u,
                                          > > > kb
                                          > > >
                                          > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                                          > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                                          > > expire some time next year.
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
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