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Re: sutta geyya veyyakara

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  • Piya Tan
    ... -- The Minding Centre Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr) Singapore 650644 Tel: 8211 0879 Meditation courses & therapy:
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 1, 2008
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      On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

      > Dear Piya, could post the following message to the Pali group?
      > Thanks. Thomas Law.
      >
      > Dear Pali friends,
      >
      > In MN vol. III, p. 115:
      >
      > '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
      > yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
      >
      > Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a disciple
      > should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an exposition
      > of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
      >
      > Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: '' Ananda,
      > a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
      > discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      >
      > My questions are:
      >
      > '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are in
      > prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
      > discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
      >
      > Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese versions
      > record the original words?
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > Thomas Law
      >
      >
      >


      --
      The Minding Centre
      Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
      Singapore 650644
      Tel: 8211 0879
      Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
      Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Piya Tan
      Thomas, This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I think sutta and geyyaa here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 1, 2008
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        Thomas,

        This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I think
        sutta and geyyaa
        here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the formalized
        collections of
        sutta, geyyaa, etc (which is late). As such, I take these terms historically
        as simply
        referring to the mostly non-Buddhist sutras (formulas) and geyas (hymns) of
        the day.

        Please refer to:

        http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/M122_Maha_Sunnata_S_sd11.4.pdf

        Any other opinion is welcome on this point.

        With metta,

        Piya Tan


        On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

        > On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
        >
        >> Dear Piya, could post the following message to the Pali group?
        >> Thanks. Thomas Law.
        >>
        >> Dear Pali friends,
        >>
        >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
        >>
        >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
        >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
        >>
        >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a disciple
        >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an exposition
        >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
        >>
        >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: '' Ananda,
        >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
        >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
        >>
        >> My questions are:
        >>
        >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are in
        >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
        >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
        >>
        >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese versions
        >> record the original words?
        >>
        >> Thank you.
        >>
        >> Thomas Law
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        > --
        > The Minding Centre
        > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        > Singapore 650644
        > Tel: 8211 0879
        > Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
        >



        --
        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        Tel: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
        Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Piya and Thomas, ... N: On the dsg list Sarah Abbot, gave Thomas some extracts of texts which may be of interest to others as well. The first is from Jim.
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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          Dear Piya and Thomas,
          Op 2-okt-2008, om 5:16 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

          > This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I
          > think
          > sutta and geyyaa
          > here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the
          > formalized
          > collections of
          > sutta, geyyaa, etc (which is late). As such, I take these terms
          > historically
          > as simply
          > referring to the mostly non-Buddhist sutras (formulas) and geyas
          > (hymns) of
          > the day.
          -----------
          N: On the dsg list Sarah Abbot, gave Thomas some extracts of texts
          which may be of interest to others as well. The first is from Jim.
          1) Jim A:
          >According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine
          (or in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times
          in the Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka.

          1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I
          133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that
          in this sutta only the first three are given.
          2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in
          the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the
          Book of Sevens.
          3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas.
          4. Once in the Vibhanga.
          5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti.<
          *****
          Sarah: >...Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.), N:
          this is the Co to the first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasanganii.

          "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,
          Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla.

          "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and
          Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta,
          Tuva.takasutta of
          the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the
          name
          of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta.

          "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In
          particular,
          all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya.

          "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other
          words
          of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
          Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.

          "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the
          Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as
          Gaathaa.

          "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy
          should be understood as Udaana.

          "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said
          by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka....

          "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka
          constitute
          the Jaataka.

          "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken
          in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things
          in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta.

          "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated
          attainment
          of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla,
          Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the
          nine
          parts."<
          *****

          3) Sarah:
          >'Heard with the Ear' (AN, 4s, 191, PTS)

          " �Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal
          practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana"m), from
          considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view.
          What are the four?

          Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and
          the
          rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*.
          Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered
          by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.'"
          .....
          [S: digression from 4s, 186 �Approach' (Ummagga)

          On the meaning of �mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
          heart:

          "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
          Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
          understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
          stanza
          of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
          well be called �one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.'"<
          ****
          4) Jon:
          >Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24

          (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs,
          [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels,
          and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of
          law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the
          meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was
          said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ...

          idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m.
          aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa.
          so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati
          `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti.
          aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa.<
          *****
          5) Sarah:
          >...the 'Alagadduupama Sutta'. The simile of the snake starts with
          these lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation).

          "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses,
          stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories,
          marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma,
          they do
          not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom."

          So what is included here within the Dhamma are (from the Pali):
          "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka,
          abbhutadhamma, and vedalla."

          All the Pitakas are included in the 9 angas
          as clarified in the point above.<
          *****
          (end of quotes).

          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Piya Tan
          Dear Nina, If we take the Buddhist TEXTS as a collection as it is today (like the Bible), it is easy to follow and accept what you have presented. For a few
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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            Dear Nina,

            If we take the Buddhist TEXTS as a collection as it is today (like the
            Bible), it
            is easy to follow and accept what you have presented. For a few centuries at

            least the early Buddhist "texts" were a floating tradition. Most
            importantly, these
            texts were the work of various redactors (sangitikara) and reciters
            (bhanakara)
            who were retelling, contextualizing and presenting teachings and events.

            I have often wondered if the Buddha, for example, ever spoke in such
            repetitive manner
            as presented in many of the Suttas. These conventions (like computer
            programmes)
            were introduced later for the purpose of transmitting the teachings as the
            reciters,
            etc, held them.

            In other words, the Pali texts are not the ipsissima verba of the Buddha.
            Indeed, one
            of the first things I was corrected as a monk in Thailand was that the
            Buddha did
            not speak Pali.

            I accept these are the best texts we have in most cases, but no WORD is
            final in
            Buddhist training (as stated in the parable of the raft in the Alaggadupama
            Sutta etc).
            With meditation, and some level of meditative insight, we are
            word-worshippers at best.

            Coming now to the problem at hand. Frankly, if we are simply book-based or
            text-
            based, I suppose we should interpret "sutta" and "geyya" in the Maha Sunnata
            Sutta
            context as actual texts (part of the 9 angas),

            Why are only "Sutta" and "Geyya" mentioned, and not the rest of the nine (or
            twelve,
            according to Mahayana) "teachings" listed. It is very likely that this Sutta
            belongs to
            an early stratum.

            The next question is: What is the Sutta (the Buddha) trying to say here? We
            must be
            careful not to present Buddhism as if it is in a cultural vacuum. Often the
            Buddha
            would be using well known current Indian religious terms, and adapting them
            to his
            teachings.

            Having said that, I think we can interpret the interesting passage (M 3:15)
            in two ways:

            (1) Not to follow the teacher purely for academic learning ("sutras and
            geyas"), or
            simply as textual knowledge (which may in a way reflect Pali Yahoo Group
            sometimes);

            (2) Not to merely learn the Suttas and Geyyas (restricted interpretation).

            (3) Probably (1) + (2).

            Anyway, I hope I am not politically incorrect, is reminding ourselves not to
            take the
            Pali texts as the Bible. There must be a balance between the spirit and the
            letter, but
            the spirit (attha) must prevail.

            Anyway, thanks for the lengthy references which I will continue to reflect
            onm, along
            with the insights of the meditation teachers, too, (and my own meditation).

            I am reminded of a beautiful story: it is said that once a famous Thai woman
            Abhidhamma
            teacher (Ajahn Sujin?) went to see Ajahn Chah, and asked him what sort of
            Abhidhamma
            he teaches. Ajahn Chah simply put his palm on his chest, smiling, without
            uttering a word.

            Let's always remember the heart of the matter.

            With metta,

            Piya Tan



            On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

            > Dear Piya and Thomas,
            > Op 2-okt-2008, om 5:16 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
            >
            > > This is an interesting problem, that I have thought about, too. I
            > > think
            > > sutta and geyyaa
            > > here (as pointed by Ven Analayo) probably do not refer to the
            > > formalized
            > > collections of
            > > sutta, geyyaa, etc (which is late). As such, I take these terms
            > > historically
            > > as simply
            > > referring to the mostly non-Buddhist sutras (formulas) and geyas
            > > (hymns) of
            > > the day.
            > -----------
            > N: On the dsg list Sarah Abbot, gave Thomas some extracts of texts
            > which may be of interest to others as well. The first is from Jim.
            > 1) Jim A:
            > >According to a quick search on the CSCD an enumeration of the nine
            > (or in part) are presented 42 times in the Suttantapi.taka, 9 times
            > in the Abhidhammapi.taka, and twice in the Vinayapi.taka.
            >
            > 1. In the Majjhimanikaaya: 4 times in the Alagguupamasutta, MN 22 (M I
            > 133-4), once in the Mahaasu~n~natasutta, MN 122 (M III 115), note that
            > in this sutta only the first three are given.
            > 2. In the Anguttarnikaaya: 20 times in the Book of Fours, 6 times in
            > the Book of Fives, twice in the Book of Sixes, and three times in the
            > Book of Sevens.
            > 3. In the Khuddakanikaaya: five times in the two Niddesas.
            > 4. Once in the Vibhanga.
            > 5. 8 times in the Puggalapa~n~natti.<
            > *****
            > Sarah: >...Atthasaalinii, Introductory Discourse (PTS transl.), N:
            > this is the Co to the first Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasanganii.
            >
            > "Which are the 'nine parts'? The entire Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na,
            > Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhuta, Vedalla.
            >
            > "Herein, the dual Sutta-Vibha"nga, the Niddesa, the Khadhakas, and
            > Parivaara, the Ma"ngalasutta, Ratanasutta, Naalakasutta,
            > Tuva.takasutta of
            > the Sutta-Nipaata, and any other words of the Tathaagata bearing the
            > name
            > of Sutta should be regarded as Sutta.
            >
            > "All the Suttas with verses should be understood as Geyya. In
            > particular,
            > all the chapters with verses in the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya form Geyya.
            >
            > "The entire Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other
            > words
            > of the Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
            > Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.
            >
            > "Dhammapada, Theragaathaa, Theriigaathaa, those pieces in the
            > Sutta-Nipaata not called Sutta, and entirely in verse should be known as
            > Gaathaa.
            >
            > "Eighty-two Suttantas connected with verses due to knowledge and joy
            > should be understood as Udaana.
            >
            > "One hundred and twelve Suttantas taught in this wise: 'Thus was it said
            > by the Blessed One,' etc., should be understood as Itivuttaka....
            >
            > "Five hundred and fifty birth-stories beginning with Apa.n.naka
            > constitute
            > the Jaataka.
            >
            > "All Suttantas connected with wonderful and the marvellous things spoken
            > in this wise: 'There are, bhikkhus, four wonderful and marvellous things
            > in Ananda,' should be understood as Abbhuta.
            >
            > "All Suttantas in the form of questions asked through repeated
            > attainment
            > of delight and understanding, such as the Suttas: Cullavedalla,
            > Mahaavedalla.....etc., should be understood as Vedalla. Such are the
            > nine
            > parts."<
            > *****
            >
            > 3) Sarah:
            > >'Heard with the Ear' (AN, 4s, 191, PTS)
            >
            > " 'Monks, four advantages are to be looked for from the frequent verbal
            > practice of teachings heard with the ear (sotaanugataana"m), from
            > considering them in the mind, from thoroughly penetrating them by view.
            > What are the four?
            >
            > Herein a monk masters Dhamma, to wit: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na and
            > the
            > rest (Gaathaa, Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla)*.
            > Those teachings heard with the ear, often practiced verbally, considered
            > by the mind, are thoroughly penetrated by view.'"
            > .....
            > [S: digression from 4s, 186 'Approach' (Ummagga)
            >
            > On the meaning of 'mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
            > heart:
            >
            > "...Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
            > Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
            > understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
            > stanza
            > of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
            > well be called 'one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.'"<
            > ****
            > 4) Jon:
            > >Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24
            >
            > (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs,
            > [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels,
            > and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of
            > law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the
            > meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was
            > said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ...
            >
            > idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m.
            > aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa.
            > so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati
            > `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti.
            > aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa.<
            > *****
            > 5) Sarah:
            > >...the 'Alagadduupama Sutta'. The simile of the snake starts with
            > these lines (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation).
            >
            > "Here, bhikkhus, some misguided men learn the Dhamma - discourses,
            > stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories,
            > marvels, and answers to questions - but having learned the Dhamma,
            > they do
            > not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom."
            >
            > So what is included here within the Dhamma are (from the Pali):
            > "sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, gatha, udana, itivuttaka, jataka,
            > abbhutadhamma, and vedalla."
            >
            > All the Pitakas are included in the 9 angas
            > as clarified in the point above.<
            > *****
            > (end of quotes).
            >
            > Nina.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
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            --
            The Minding Centre
            Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
            Singapore 650644
            Tel: 8211 0879
            Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
            Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Piya, thank you for your mail and personal impressions. I can understand how you feel, you can express your thoughts very well. I cannot go into all of
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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              Dear Piya,
              thank you for your mail and personal impressions. I can understand
              how you feel, you can express your thoughts very well. I cannot go
              into all of your points.
              When it is said sutta, geyya, it is the beginning of a well known
              series, all nine angas are included.
              Repetitions are helpful for those who learn the texts by heart. But
              there is another matter. I am so hardheaded, so forgetful, and for me
              repetitions are most effective. It helps me wake up! I can hear again
              and again: seeing is not self, hearing is not self, etc.
              To me all these texts are not mere theory, all of them pertain to our
              life. And yes, the Abhidhamma is about reality that should be taken
              to heart. Achan Cha's gesture is significant, pointing to his heart.
              Not a valley of dry bones.
              Nina.
              Op 2-okt-2008, om 11:58 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

              > f we take the Buddhist TEXTS as a collection as it is today (like the
              > Bible), it
              > is easy to follow and accept what you have presented.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear Thomas, ... Instead of veyyakara.nassa hetu , the CSCD version reads veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu . I think the latter is the correct one. ... I think the
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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                Dear Thomas,

                >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
                >>
                >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
                >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''

                Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.

                >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a disciple
                >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an exposition
                >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
                >>
                >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: '' Ananda,
                >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
                >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
                >>
                >> My questions are:
                >>
                >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are in
                >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
                >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
                >>
                >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese versions
                >> record the original words?

                I think the two readings as noted above account for the main difference in
                the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more accurate,
                though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence translates
                literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
                on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and exposition."
                The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this statement
                and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on account of
                such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta, geyya, etc.

                Best wishes,
                Jim
              • Piya Tan
                Dear Nina & Pali friends, Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually, as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It; s good to have a
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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                  Dear Nina & Pali friends,

                  Thanks for your diplomatic note. Yes we are both hard-headed actually,
                  as far as self-effacement is wholesome. It;'s good to have a head, and of
                  course,
                  a heart, too.


                  On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:41 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                  > When it is said sutta, geyya, it is the beginning of a well known
                  > series, all nine angas are included.
                  >





                  I still have a problem with this statement you (and the Commentaries) made:
                  Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
                  Buddha started teaching?

                  The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could have
                  evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
                  audience
                  was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.

                  But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the world as the
                  nine
                  angas as a full set.

                  I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

                  My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
                  "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
                  reason
                  to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

                  This then becomes dogma.

                  With metta,

                  Piya


                  --
                  The Minding Centre
                  Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                  Singapore 650644
                  Tel: 8211 0879
                  Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                  Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • thomaslaw03
                  Dear Jim, Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence. It is good to know
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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                    Dear Jim,

                    Thank you very much for the textual information from the CSCD
                    version, and your translation and explanation of the Pali sentence.

                    It is good to know that you prefer to choose the translation from
                    Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as being more accurate than
                    Horner's. According to you, the sentence from the CSCD version is
                    translated literally as:

                    "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow the teacher
                    on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
                    exposition." (Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                    anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu)

                    A person emailed me that the corresponding Chinese version, MA 191 (T
                    1, 739c4), also records the three terms clearly (prose, prose and
                    verse, and exposition). This is very interesting. But I am unable to
                    confirm this information for sure.

                    Thank you to all.

                    Sincerely,

                    Thomas Law

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Thomas,
                    >
                    > >> In MN vol. III, p. 115:
                    > >>
                    > >> '' Na kho, AAnanda, arahati saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m
                    > >> yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyakara.nassa hetu''
                    >
                    > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                    reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                    > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                    >
                    > >> Horner's translation, p. 159: ''Ananda, it is not fit that a
                    disciple
                    > >> should follow after a teacher if it is for the sake of an
                    exposition
                    > >> of the Discourses that are in prose and in prose and verse''
                    > >>
                    > >> Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, p. 976: ''
                    Ananda,
                    > >> a disciple should not seek the teacher's company for the sake of
                    > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
                    > >>
                    > >> My questions are:
                    > >>
                    > >> '' ... for the sake of an exposition of the Discourses that are
                    in
                    > >> prose and in prose and verse.'' and '' ... for the sake of
                    > >> discourses, stanzas, and expositions.''
                    > >>
                    > >> Which translation is correct? How do other Pali and Chinese
                    versions
                    > >> record the original words?
                    >
                    > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                    difference in
                    > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                    accurate,
                    > though not necessarily correct, than the first one. The sentence
                    translates
                    > literally as: "Indeed, Ananda, the disciple is not fit to follow
                    the teacher
                    > on account of this, that is to say, prose, prose and verse, and
                    exposition."
                    > The sutta continues on with an explanation of the reason for this
                    statement
                    > and concludes that the disciple is fit to follow the teacher on
                    account of
                    > such kinds of talks as enumerated --- in addition to the sutta,
                    geyya, etc.
                    >
                    > Best wishes,
                    > Jim
                    >
                  • mahipaliha
                    ... reads veyyaakara.na.m ... difference in ... accurate ... The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying that a monk should not run
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 2, 2008
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                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...> wrote:
                      > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                      reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                      > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                      > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                      difference in
                      > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                      accurate ...

                      The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                      that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of (simply)
                      learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                      expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                      elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                      compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'- to
                      a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning (suta-
                      pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                      accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma pa.tipadaa),
                      i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                      ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                      you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu".
                      It still looks an awkward wording, of course.

                      Mahinda Palihawadana
                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Dear Piya, Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven: Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the Buddha started
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                        Dear Piya,

                        Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
                        Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
                        Buddha started teaching?

                        The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
                        have
                        evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
                        audience
                        was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
                        --------
                        N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
                        ready. There were so many arahats.
                        As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
                        whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
                        Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
                        It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
                        order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
                        rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
                        such as in our case.
                        ----------

                        P: But I find it hard to imagine that the Dharma appeared in the
                        world as the
                        nine angas as a full set.
                        -------
                        N: But when we read them in certain suttas they were there at that
                        time. Perhaps not the first year of his teaching, but later on, we
                        are not able to know now.
                        -----------

                        P: I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.

                        My point is also that if the Sutta says "Sutta and Geyya" and maybe also
                        "Veyyakara.na", I see no problem in accepting it as it is. There is no
                        reason to read more into it or "standardize" this to the nine angas.

                        This then becomes dogma.
                        ---------
                        N: As to Veyyakara.na, the Atthasaalinii explains: < The entire
                        Abhidhamma-Pi.taka, Suttas without verses and any other words of the
                        Buddha not included in the eight parts should be understood as
                        Veyyaakara.na, or exposition.>
                        He taught Abhidhamma from the beginning but we also know that
                        Saariputta, the General of the Dhamma , systematizised the Abhidhamma.

                        You want to beware of dogma, but there is no danger if we see that
                        the essence of the teachings is not theoretical. Whatever we read, be
                        it a Tipi.ta text or commentary or tiika, we always have to ask
                        ourselves: how can this help me now, in the development of
                        understanding of this very moment? Otherwise all our study would be
                        mogha. Whatever I read or translate, I really try to get the meaning
                        relevant to this moment of my life.
                        I like the following sutta, where all the nine angas are mentioned:

                        Anguttara Nikaaya, Book of the Fours, XIX, 186) �Approach� (Ummagga)

                        On the meaning of �mastery, being well learned and knowing Dhamma by
                        heart:

                        �...�Well, monk, I have taught Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakara.na ,Gaathaa,
                        Udaana, Itivuttaka, Jaataka, Abbhutadhamma and Vedalla .Now if a monk
                        understands the meaning and (text of) dhamma, - even if it be but a
                        stanza
                        of four lines, - and be set on living in accordance with Dhamma, he may
                        well be called �one widely learned, who knows Dhamma by heart.��
                        --------
                        Nina.





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Piya Tan
                        Dear Nina and Pali friends, That s quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point. ... My main question regarding the history (as you put it)
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                          Dear Nina and Pali friends,

                          That's quite a lot of words, but we agree on the essential point.

                          On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                          > Dear Piya,
                          >
                          > Op 3-okt-2008, om 4:00 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:


                          > Does this mean that all the nine angas are already there even when the
                          > Buddha started teaching?
                          >
                          > The Buddha taught for 45 years. Understandably, the nine angas could
                          > have
                          > evolved eventually, perhaps after the first 20 years when the Buddha's
                          > audience
                          > was not so spiritually ready as during the first 20 years.
                          > --------
                          > N: I do not think the audience was less ready, perhaps even more
                          > ready. There were so many arahats.
                          > As to the history, I do not have an answer. I only know that the
                          > whole Tipitaka was rehearsed at the first council. Of each sutta
                          > Anada said: eva.m me sutta.m.
                          > It was not said that the Buddha spoke the suttas in this or that
                          > order, such as the Ones, the Twos, etc. All the arahats that
                          > rehearsed together had a fabulous memory, not darkened by defilements
                          > such as in our case.
                          > ----------


                          My main question regarding the "history" (as you put it) remains. It's
                          obvious
                          from the Vinaya stories and early Suttas that the Buddha gradually
                          introduced
                          the Dharma to the world.

                          Even the First Council did not put together everything. For example, the
                          Kathavatthu which was canonized during Asoka's time.

                          As regards whether the Buddha taught Abhidharma, let leave it at that.
                          However, anyone interested in my research on how Abhidhamma "began"
                          is welcome to read it:

                          http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/01Abhidhammapiya.doc.

                          My point remains: we cannot apply the nine angas as a set to all the Suttas.
                          Maybe to the much later texts. Maybe even not those, but the whole anga
                          system is post-Buddha.

                          Even if we say "the Arhats" put the texts together, we do not know this
                          first-hand. It is still pi.taka,sampadaaya.

                          Anyway I still have no doubt about the Dharma, notwithstanding whether the
                          Angas refer to the whole Canon or not.

                          We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.

                          With metta,

                          Piya Tan




                          The Minding Centre
                          Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                          Singapore 650644
                          Tel: 8211 0879
                          Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                          Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Piya, Thanks for your mail. ... N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                            Dear Piya,
                            Thanks for your mail.
                            Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

                            > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                            -----
                            N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                            Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                            welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                            appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                            In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                            around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                            books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                            Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                            anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                            anyway for writing,
                            Nina.
                            P.S. Your link did not work.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Piya Tan
                            Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends, I m aware attachments won t work here. Here is a link (hope this is OK):
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                              Dear Nina, Yong Peng, & Pali friends,

                              I'm aware attachments won't work here.

                              Here is a link (hope this is OK):

                              http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com/26.1_DhammaAbhidhamma_piya.pdf

                              The previous one was broken, sorry.

                              Any problems, contact me, I will send the file personally.

                              With metta,

                              Piya Tan


                              On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 9:43 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                              > Dear Piya,
                              > Thanks for your mail.
                              > Op 3-okt-2008, om 10:34 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
                              >
                              >
                              > > We are building quite a raft here: let's start using it.
                              > -----
                              > N: I am all for it. I do not believe in long debates about the
                              > Abhidhamma. When I first came to the list you wrote a really lovely
                              > welcome to me, also about Abhidhamma, I will not forget it. Then it
                              > appeared that we had different ideas about it, but this does not matter.
                              > In my answer I tried to convey that the Abhidhamma is in you and all
                              > around you, although you may not know it. We do not have to think of
                              > books. When I read in the sutta that seeing is anatta I see
                              > Abhidhamma in the sutta: paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, are
                              > anatta, not persons and things. But no long debates now. Thank you
                              > anyway for writing,
                              > Nina.
                              > P.S. Your link did not work.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              --
                              The Minding Centre
                              Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                              Singapore 650644
                              Tel: 8211 0879
                              Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.googlepages.com
                              Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • thomaslaw03
                              Dear Mahinda Palihawadana, Thank you very much for giving the commentary s information to support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 3, 2008
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                                Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,

                                Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                                support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                                you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                                refer to?

                                Thank you.

                                Thomas Law


                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "mahipaliha" <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                                > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                                > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                                > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                                > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                                > difference in
                                > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                                > accurate ...
                                >
                                > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                                > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                                (simply)
                                > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                                > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                                > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                                > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                                to
                                > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                                (suta-
                                > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                                > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                                pa.tipadaa),
                                > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                                > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                                > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                                hetu".
                                > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                                >
                                > Mahinda Palihawadana
                                >
                              • Mahinda Palihawadana
                                Dear Thomas Law, I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don t know if you have used the CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                  Dear Thomas Law,

                                  I used the online version of CSCD itself. I don't know if you have used the
                                  CSCD commentaries before. You have to click on A.t.thakathaa and select
                                  Majjhima Nikaya; then select the relevant section, in this case the last
                                  volume, (uparipa.n.naasa). Then you have to select the subsection i.e.
                                  su`n`natavagga Then you have to select the Sutta. The Mahaasu`n`nata Sutta
                                  is the second sutta of this vagga. Once you get there, you have to scroll
                                  down to the relevant paragraph. Good luck.
                                  Mahinda P.

                                  On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                                  > Dear Mahinda Palihawadana,
                                  >
                                  > Thank you very much for giving the commentary's information to
                                  > support the CSCD version and the translation suggested by Jim. Could
                                  > you please tell us the vol. and page number of the commentary you
                                  > refer to?
                                  >
                                  > Thank you.
                                  >
                                  > Thomas Law
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "mahipaliha"
                                  > <mahipal6@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jim Anderson"
                                  > <jimanderson.on@> wrote:
                                  > > > Instead of "veyyakara.nassa hetu", the CSCD version
                                  > > reads "veyyaakara.na.m
                                  > > > tassa hetu". I think the latter is the correct one.
                                  > > > I think the two readings as noted above account for the main
                                  > > difference in
                                  > > > the two translations. I would choose the second one as being more
                                  > > accurate ...
                                  > >
                                  > > The commentary is helpful here. It represents the Buddha as saying
                                  > > that a monk should not run behind the Teacher for the sake of
                                  > (simply)
                                  > > learning his sayings in the form of discourses, verses and
                                  > > expositions. The Comy asks why does the Buddha say this here, when
                                  > > elsewhere (it gives an Anguttara ref.) he has praised learning and
                                  > > compared a person who has learned (the teachings) - a 'bahussuta'-
                                  > to
                                  > > a well-armed warrior. The reason it says is that rote learning
                                  > (suta-
                                  > > pariyatti) is not what the B. recommends, but learning which is
                                  > > accompanied by appropriate "graduated practice" (anuloma
                                  > pa.tipadaa),
                                  > > i.e., the tenfold 'talk' enumerated thereafter in this Sutta, which
                                  > > ten would lead one to wisdom, deliverance etc. The text then is, as
                                  > > you point out, "yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa
                                  > hetu".
                                  > > It still looks an awkward wording, of course.
                                  > >
                                  > > Mahinda Palihawadana
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • thomaslaw03
                                  Dear Pali friends, In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 6, 2008
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                                    Dear Pali friends,

                                    In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                                    list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                                    angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).

                                    Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                    (i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                    abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                                    words of the text?

                                    Thank you.

                                    Thomas Law
                                  • Kumaara Bhikkhu
                                    The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading. I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                                      The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.

                                      I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.

                                      Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?

                                      kb, who decided to drop by again

                                      thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                      >Dear Pali friends,
                                      >
                                      >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it has a
                                      >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma (i.e.
                                      >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                      >
                                      >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                      >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                      >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on the
                                      >words of the text?
                                      >
                                      >Thank you.
                                      >
                                      >Thomas Law
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >------------------------------------
                                      >
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                                      >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
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                                      >
                                      >

                                      peace2u,
                                      kb

                                      New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                                      The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to expire some time next year.
                                    • thomaslaw03
                                      Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends, Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 14, 2008
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                                        Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,

                                        Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                                        only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                        the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                                        in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                                        four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                        entire set of nine?).

                                        Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                        have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                                        geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                                        hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                                        Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?

                                        Thank you.

                                        Regards,

                                        Thomas Law

                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                        >
                                        > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                        set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                                        an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                                        to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                        editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                                        that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                        >
                                        > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                                        says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                                        for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                                        >
                                        > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                        >
                                        > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                        > >Dear Pali friends,
                                        > >
                                        > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                                        has a
                                        > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                                        (i.e.
                                        > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                        > >
                                        > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                        > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                        > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                                        the
                                        > >words of the text?
                                        > >
                                        > >Thank you.
                                        > >
                                        > >Thomas Law
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >------------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                        > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                        > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                        > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                        > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                        > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                        > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                        digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > peace2u,
                                        > kb
                                        >
                                        > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                                        > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                                        expire some time next year.
                                        >
                                      • Mahinda Palihawadana
                                        Dear Thomas Law, In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m . Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 15, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Thomas Law,
                                          In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                                          veyyaakara.na.m".

                                          Mahinda

                                          On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:

                                          > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                                          >
                                          > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that the
                                          > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                          > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas found
                                          > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than the
                                          > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                          > entire set of nine?).
                                          >
                                          > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                          > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m sutta.m
                                          > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "... veyyakara.nassa
                                          > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do the
                                          > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                                          >
                                          > Thank you.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Thomas Law
                                          >
                                          > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara Bhikkhu <yg@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                          > >
                                          > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                          > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went through
                                          > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and even
                                          > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                          > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not say
                                          > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                          > >
                                          > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when Karanapali
                                          > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has gone
                                          > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi). Huh?
                                          > >
                                          > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                          > >
                                          > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                          > > >Dear Pali friends,
                                          > > >
                                          > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194), it
                                          > has a
                                          > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana, abbhutadhamma
                                          > (i.e.
                                          > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                          > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla, (8)
                                          > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment on
                                          > the
                                          > > >words of the text?
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Thank you.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >Thomas Law
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >------------------------------------
                                          > > >
                                          > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                          > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                          > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                          > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                          > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                          > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                          > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > > peace2u,
                                          > > kb
                                          > >
                                          > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@...
                                          > > The old address (venkumara@...) is still valid, but is expected to
                                          > expire some time next year.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • thomaslaw03
                                          Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends, Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala edition. A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Oct 21, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Mahinda, and Pali friends,

                                            Thank you very much, Mahinda, for the information about the Sinhala
                                            edition.

                                            A person emailed me about the Thai edition of the words:

                                            The Syaamara.t.tha edition, vol. 14, p. 241: "na kho aananda arahati
                                            saavako satthaara.m anubandhitu.m yadida.m suttageyyaveyyaakara.nassa
                                            sotu.m, ta.m kissa hetu."

                                            I don't know Thai, so cannot confirm this information. Hopefully
                                            someone here can help to confirm the words.

                                            Can anyone help to translate the above-mentioned Thai Pali sentence?
                                            Are there any big differences from the Sinhala and CSCD versions? Why
                                            the PTS version has different words? (I thought that the PTS follows
                                            closely the Sinhala edition?)

                                            Thank you.

                                            Thomas Law

                                            P.S.:

                                            PTS edition: "na kho, aananda, arahati saavako satthaara.m
                                            anubandhitu.m yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.nassa hetu." (MN
                                            vol. 111, p. 115)

                                            CSCD and Sinhala editions (page unknown), and the commentary
                                            (Papa~ncasuudanii)(page unknown):
                                            "na kho, ... yadida.m sutta.m geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu."

                                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Mahinda Palihawadana" <mahipal6@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear Thomas Law,
                                            > In the Sinhala editions it is, as in CSCD, "sutta.m geyya.m
                                            > veyyaakara.na.m".
                                            >
                                            > Mahinda
                                            >
                                            > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 9:55 AM, thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...>wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Dear Kumaara, and Pali friends,
                                            > >
                                            > > Thank you very much for your reply, Kumaara. If you consider that
                                            the
                                            > > only four angas shown in the AN could be an earlier list (compared
                                            > > the traditional set of nine), then, the only first three angas
                                            found
                                            > > in the MN (and the MA) were likely the earliest or earlier than
                                            the
                                            > > four set in AN (which the four set could be an abbreviation of the
                                            > > entire set of nine?).
                                            > >
                                            > > Suggested by Jim and Mahinda, the CSCD version and the commentary
                                            > > have: " ... veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu" (that is, "yadida.m
                                            sutta.m
                                            > > geyya.m veyyaakara.na.m tassa hetu"), instead of "...
                                            veyyakara.nassa
                                            > > hetu" in the PTS version (MN vol. III, p. 115). I wonder how do
                                            the
                                            > > Thai/Siam and Sinhalese versions record the words of the text?
                                            > >
                                            > > Thank you.
                                            > >
                                            > > Regards,
                                            > >
                                            > > Thomas Law
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Kumaara
                                            Bhikkhu <yg@>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The CSCD has the same and does not indicate any variant reading.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I wonder if this may be an earlier list compared the traditional
                                            > > set of nine. As I understand from scholars, the suttas went
                                            through
                                            > > an evolution, which involved attempts to standardise things and
                                            even
                                            > > to endorse later texts. This may have escaped that. Perhaps the
                                            > > editors did not find it necessary to change this as it does not
                                            say
                                            > > that the Buddha or an ordained disciple of his said it.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Btw, I find this sutta somewhat peculiar at the end when
                                            Karanapali
                                            > > says, "Let Master Pingayani accept me as a lay follower who has
                                            gone
                                            > > for refuge from today until life's end." (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi).
                                            Huh?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > kb, who decided to drop by again
                                            > > >
                                            > > > thomaslaw03 wrote thus at 03:13 PM 06-10-08:
                                            > > > >Dear Pali friends,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >In the PTS version, Anguttara-nikaya III 237.14-19 (AN 5.194),
                                            it
                                            > > has a
                                            > > > >list of just four angas: sutta, geyya, veyyakarana,
                                            abbhutadhamma
                                            > > (i.e.
                                            > > > >angas nos. 1, 2, 3, and 8).
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >Is it possible this list is an abbreviation of the entire set?
                                            > > > >(i.e. '(1) sutta, (2) geyya, (3) veyyakarana, ... (9) Vedalla,
                                            (8)
                                            > > > >abbhuta-dhamma'). How do other Pali versions record or comment
                                            on
                                            > > the
                                            > > > >words of the text?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >Thank you.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >Thomas Law
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >------------------------------------
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                            > > > >Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                                            > > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                            > > > >[Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                                            > > > >[Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                                            > > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            > > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                                            > > digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > peace2u,
                                            > > > kb
                                            > > >
                                            > > > New email address: kumara.bhikkhu@
                                            > > > The old address (venkumara@) is still valid, but is expected to
                                            > > expire some time next year.
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
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