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Re: [Pali] Warder Ch. 5 and 6

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  • Mahinda Palihawadana
    Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim, Natalie asked why not khattiye . Why did she ask this? Probably she thought of the English equivalent: Mahagovinda approached
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 19, 2008
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      Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,

      Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she thought
      of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas." If Pali
      idiom was same as the English, "those Khattiyas" would translate as "te
      khattiye" (accusative). This is not impossible. We could have had
      "mahaagovindo braahma.no te khattiye upasa.mkami." But it is more idiomatic
      in Pali to say it as it is found in the text. Jim was right as far as the
      usage of the instrumental 'yena' (in the sense of the locative 'yattha') was
      concerned. Now what must be added is that the Pali has here a (contracted)
      complex sentence, It is, if the implied word is added, "atha kho
      mahaagovindo braahma.no yena te khattiyaa (aasu.m), ten'upasa.mkami."
      (Mahagovinda approached there where those Khattiyas were).Naturally, the
      subject of the subordinate sentence (khattiyaa aasu.m: Khattiyas were)
      needs 'khattiyaa' in the nominative case. The other sentence is to be
      explained in the same manner. Regards.

      Mahinda

      On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

      > Dear Natalie,
      >
      > I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before. That
      > was late last January from my search of the messages. Buddhaghosa's
      > Vinaya commentary (Sp I 128) on the phrase "yena Bhagavaa
      > tenupasa"nkami" may be of some help. It offers two explanations that
      > can be applied to your sentence as follow:
      >
      > 1) yena and tena are instrumental expressions in the sense of the
      > locative, equivalent to yattha (where) and tattha (there),
      > respectively. Then, where those nobles were, there Mahaagovinda
      > approached.
      >
      > 2) yena and tena are equivalent to yena kaara.nena (for whatever
      > reason) and tena kaara.nena (for that reason), respectively. Then, for
      > whatever reason those nobles (are to be approached), for that reason
      > Mahaagovinda approached.
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Jim
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim Anderson
      Dear Mahinda, Thank-you very much for taking it further. You have a wonderful way of explaining such matters in terms that are easy for Pali students to
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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        Dear Mahinda,

        Thank-you very much for taking it further. You have a wonderful way of
        explaining such matters in terms that are easy for Pali students to
        understand. Now, over the past week I have been going over the
        Dhammapada commentary on verses Dhp 153-4 (the Housebuilder verses)
        and there is one sentence (on Dhp 153d) that I'm having problems
        understanding and was wondering if you could help me with it. I know
        you were involved in the translation of the word-by-word commentary on
        Dhp, so you seem like the right person to ask. I can post the sentence
        in another message and explain what I'm able to make of it so far and
        point out the problems I'm having with it.

        Regards,
        Jim


        > Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,
        >
        > Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she
        thought
        > of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas."
        If Pali
      • natalie_indeed
        Dear Pali list lovely people, ... That was late last January from my search of the messages. I thought I had asked this before but could not find it when I
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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          Dear Pali list lovely people,

          > I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before.
          That was late last January from my search of the messages.

          I thought I had asked this before but could not find it when I
          searched the archived messages! How embarrassing!

          Anyway, your answer helped immensely, particularly the Vinaya
          commentary. Thank you Nina and Jim!

          Hopefully by next January I will be reviewing chapter 30, not chapter
          5 (again). :D

          Metta & mudita,
          Natalie
        • natalie_indeed
          Dear Mahinda, This really clarifies everything--as a contracted sentence with an implied verb, of course it would be in the first case. (Light bulb appears
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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            Dear Mahinda,

            This really clarifies everything--as a "contracted" sentence with an
            implied verb, of course it would be in the first case. (Light bulb
            appears over Natalie's head....)

            Bohoma isthuti,
            Natalie
          • Mahinda Palihawadana
            Dear Jim, I will be glad to try my hand at it once you have posted your message. Regards. Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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              Dear Jim,
              I will be glad to try my hand at it once you have posted your message.
              Regards.
              Mahinda

              On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

              > Dear Mahinda,
              >
              > Now, over the past week I have been going over the
              > Dhammapada commentary on verses Dhp 153-4 (the Housebuilder verses)
              > and there is one sentence (on Dhp 153d) that I'm having problems
              > understanding and was wondering if you could help me with it. I can post
              > the sentence
              > in another message and explain what I'm able to make of it so far and
              > point out the problems I'm having with it.
              >
              >
              >
              > > Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,
              > >
              > > Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she
              > thought
              > > of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas."
              > If Pali
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Mahinda and Jim, I hope Jim s question on the Dhammapada commentary will be here on list, we all can learn. Mahinda, I hope you help more often, I very
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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                Dear Mahinda and Jim,
                I hope Jim's question on the Dhammapada commentary will be here on
                list, we all can learn. Mahinda, I hope you help more often, I very
                much like your clear way of explaining.
                Nina.
                Op 20-sep-2008, om 17:32 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:

                > This really clarifies everything--as a "contracted" sentence with an
                > implied verb, of course it would be in the first case.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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