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Re: [Pali] Warder Ch. 5 and 6

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Natalie, I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before. That was late last January from my search of the messages. Buddhaghosa s Vinaya
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 19, 2008
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      Dear Natalie,

      I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before. That
      was late last January from my search of the messages. Buddhaghosa's
      Vinaya commentary (Sp I 128) on the phrase "yena Bhagavaa
      tenupasa"nkami" may be of some help. It offers two explanations that
      can be applied to your sentence as follow:

      1) yena and tena are instrumental expressions in the sense of the
      locative, equivalent to yattha (where) and tattha (there),
      respectively. Then, where those nobles were, there Mahaagovinda
      approached.

      2) yena and tena are equivalent to yena kaara.nena (for whatever
      reason) and tena kaara.nena (for that reason), respectively. Then, for
      whatever reason those nobles (are to be approached), for that reason
      Mahaagovinda approached.

      Best wishes,
      Jim
    • Mahinda Palihawadana
      Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim, Natalie asked why not khattiye . Why did she ask this? Probably she thought of the English equivalent: Mahagovinda approached
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 19, 2008
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        Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,

        Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she thought
        of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas." If Pali
        idiom was same as the English, "those Khattiyas" would translate as "te
        khattiye" (accusative). This is not impossible. We could have had
        "mahaagovindo braahma.no te khattiye upasa.mkami." But it is more idiomatic
        in Pali to say it as it is found in the text. Jim was right as far as the
        usage of the instrumental 'yena' (in the sense of the locative 'yattha') was
        concerned. Now what must be added is that the Pali has here a (contracted)
        complex sentence, It is, if the implied word is added, "atha kho
        mahaagovindo braahma.no yena te khattiyaa (aasu.m), ten'upasa.mkami."
        (Mahagovinda approached there where those Khattiyas were).Naturally, the
        subject of the subordinate sentence (khattiyaa aasu.m: Khattiyas were)
        needs 'khattiyaa' in the nominative case. The other sentence is to be
        explained in the same manner. Regards.

        Mahinda

        On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

        > Dear Natalie,
        >
        > I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before. That
        > was late last January from my search of the messages. Buddhaghosa's
        > Vinaya commentary (Sp I 128) on the phrase "yena Bhagavaa
        > tenupasa"nkami" may be of some help. It offers two explanations that
        > can be applied to your sentence as follow:
        >
        > 1) yena and tena are instrumental expressions in the sense of the
        > locative, equivalent to yattha (where) and tattha (there),
        > respectively. Then, where those nobles were, there Mahaagovinda
        > approached.
        >
        > 2) yena and tena are equivalent to yena kaara.nena (for whatever
        > reason) and tena kaara.nena (for that reason), respectively. Then, for
        > whatever reason those nobles (are to be approached), for that reason
        > Mahaagovinda approached.
        >
        > Best wishes,
        > Jim
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Mahinda, Thank-you very much for taking it further. You have a wonderful way of explaining such matters in terms that are easy for Pali students to
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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          Dear Mahinda,

          Thank-you very much for taking it further. You have a wonderful way of
          explaining such matters in terms that are easy for Pali students to
          understand. Now, over the past week I have been going over the
          Dhammapada commentary on verses Dhp 153-4 (the Housebuilder verses)
          and there is one sentence (on Dhp 153d) that I'm having problems
          understanding and was wondering if you could help me with it. I know
          you were involved in the translation of the word-by-word commentary on
          Dhp, so you seem like the right person to ask. I can post the sentence
          in another message and explain what I'm able to make of it so far and
          point out the problems I'm having with it.

          Regards,
          Jim


          > Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,
          >
          > Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she
          thought
          > of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas."
          If Pali
        • natalie_indeed
          Dear Pali list lovely people, ... That was late last January from my search of the messages. I thought I had asked this before but could not find it when I
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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            Dear Pali list lovely people,

            > I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before.
            That was late last January from my search of the messages.

            I thought I had asked this before but could not find it when I
            searched the archived messages! How embarrassing!

            Anyway, your answer helped immensely, particularly the Vinaya
            commentary. Thank you Nina and Jim!

            Hopefully by next January I will be reviewing chapter 30, not chapter
            5 (again). :D

            Metta & mudita,
            Natalie
          • natalie_indeed
            Dear Mahinda, This really clarifies everything--as a contracted sentence with an implied verb, of course it would be in the first case. (Light bulb appears
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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              Dear Mahinda,

              This really clarifies everything--as a "contracted" sentence with an
              implied verb, of course it would be in the first case. (Light bulb
              appears over Natalie's head....)

              Bohoma isthuti,
              Natalie
            • Mahinda Palihawadana
              Dear Jim, I will be glad to try my hand at it once you have posted your message. Regards. Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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                Dear Jim,
                I will be glad to try my hand at it once you have posted your message.
                Regards.
                Mahinda

                On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                > Dear Mahinda,
                >
                > Now, over the past week I have been going over the
                > Dhammapada commentary on verses Dhp 153-4 (the Housebuilder verses)
                > and there is one sentence (on Dhp 153d) that I'm having problems
                > understanding and was wondering if you could help me with it. I can post
                > the sentence
                > in another message and explain what I'm able to make of it so far and
                > point out the problems I'm having with it.
                >
                >
                >
                > > Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,
                > >
                > > Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she
                > thought
                > > of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas."
                > If Pali
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Mahinda and Jim, I hope Jim s question on the Dhammapada commentary will be here on list, we all can learn. Mahinda, I hope you help more often, I very
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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                  Dear Mahinda and Jim,
                  I hope Jim's question on the Dhammapada commentary will be here on
                  list, we all can learn. Mahinda, I hope you help more often, I very
                  much like your clear way of explaining.
                  Nina.
                  Op 20-sep-2008, om 17:32 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:

                  > This really clarifies everything--as a "contracted" sentence with an
                  > implied verb, of course it would be in the first case.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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