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Warder Ch. 5 and 6

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  • natalie_indeed
    Dear Pali friends, I am trying to figure out the yena/tena construction in Ch.5 and 6 of Warder as it is used with the nominative case. In both of the
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 18, 2008
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      Dear Pali friends,

      I am trying to figure out the yena/tena construction in Ch.5 and 6 of
      Warder as it is used with the nominative case. In both of the
      examples, what I would expect to be in accusative (the object) is in
      the nominative.

      Ex 1, p. 34
      Then Mahaagovinda the priest toward those nobles approached that way
      (atha kho Mahaagovindo braahma.no yena te khattiyaa tena upasa.mkami).
      Why not "te khattiye" since "those nobles" are the recipients of
      Mahaagovinda's approach?

      Ex. 2, p. 38
      yena Jotipaalo maa.navo ten' upasa.mkama (Towards the young brahmin
      Jotipaala approach that way).
      Why not "Jotipaala.m maa.nava.m" since Jotipaala is the recipient of
      action?

      Thank you for any help.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Natalie, ... N: We have to think of a relative sentence with the nominative: Then, by which way those nobles were, by that way went Mahaagovinda the
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 19, 2008
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        Dear Natalie,

        Op 19-sep-2008, om 6:06 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:

        > Ex 1, p. 34
        > Then Mahaagovinda the priest toward those nobles approached that way
        > (atha kho Mahaagovindo braahma.no yena te khattiyaa tena upasa.mkami).
        > Why not "te khattiye" since "those nobles" are the recipients of
        > Mahaagovinda's approach?
        -------
        N: We have to think of a relative sentence with the nominative: Then,
        by which way those nobles were, by that way went Mahaagovinda the
        priest.
        Nina.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Natalie, I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before. That was late last January from my search of the messages. Buddhaghosa s Vinaya
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 19, 2008
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          Dear Natalie,

          I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before. That
          was late last January from my search of the messages. Buddhaghosa's
          Vinaya commentary (Sp I 128) on the phrase "yena Bhagavaa
          tenupasa"nkami" may be of some help. It offers two explanations that
          can be applied to your sentence as follow:

          1) yena and tena are instrumental expressions in the sense of the
          locative, equivalent to yattha (where) and tattha (there),
          respectively. Then, where those nobles were, there Mahaagovinda
          approached.

          2) yena and tena are equivalent to yena kaara.nena (for whatever
          reason) and tena kaara.nena (for that reason), respectively. Then, for
          whatever reason those nobles (are to be approached), for that reason
          Mahaagovinda approached.

          Best wishes,
          Jim
        • Mahinda Palihawadana
          Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim, Natalie asked why not khattiye . Why did she ask this? Probably she thought of the English equivalent: Mahagovinda approached
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 19, 2008
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            Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,

            Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she thought
            of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas." If Pali
            idiom was same as the English, "those Khattiyas" would translate as "te
            khattiye" (accusative). This is not impossible. We could have had
            "mahaagovindo braahma.no te khattiye upasa.mkami." But it is more idiomatic
            in Pali to say it as it is found in the text. Jim was right as far as the
            usage of the instrumental 'yena' (in the sense of the locative 'yattha') was
            concerned. Now what must be added is that the Pali has here a (contracted)
            complex sentence, It is, if the implied word is added, "atha kho
            mahaagovindo braahma.no yena te khattiyaa (aasu.m), ten'upasa.mkami."
            (Mahagovinda approached there where those Khattiyas were).Naturally, the
            subject of the subordinate sentence (khattiyaa aasu.m: Khattiyas were)
            needs 'khattiyaa' in the nominative case. The other sentence is to be
            explained in the same manner. Regards.

            Mahinda

            On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

            > Dear Natalie,
            >
            > I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before. That
            > was late last January from my search of the messages. Buddhaghosa's
            > Vinaya commentary (Sp I 128) on the phrase "yena Bhagavaa
            > tenupasa"nkami" may be of some help. It offers two explanations that
            > can be applied to your sentence as follow:
            >
            > 1) yena and tena are instrumental expressions in the sense of the
            > locative, equivalent to yattha (where) and tattha (there),
            > respectively. Then, where those nobles were, there Mahaagovinda
            > approached.
            >
            > 2) yena and tena are equivalent to yena kaara.nena (for whatever
            > reason) and tena kaara.nena (for that reason), respectively. Then, for
            > whatever reason those nobles (are to be approached), for that reason
            > Mahaagovinda approached.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            > Jim
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim Anderson
            Dear Mahinda, Thank-you very much for taking it further. You have a wonderful way of explaining such matters in terms that are easy for Pali students to
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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              Dear Mahinda,

              Thank-you very much for taking it further. You have a wonderful way of
              explaining such matters in terms that are easy for Pali students to
              understand. Now, over the past week I have been going over the
              Dhammapada commentary on verses Dhp 153-4 (the Housebuilder verses)
              and there is one sentence (on Dhp 153d) that I'm having problems
              understanding and was wondering if you could help me with it. I know
              you were involved in the translation of the word-by-word commentary on
              Dhp, so you seem like the right person to ask. I can post the sentence
              in another message and explain what I'm able to make of it so far and
              point out the problems I'm having with it.

              Regards,
              Jim


              > Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,
              >
              > Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she
              thought
              > of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas."
              If Pali
            • natalie_indeed
              Dear Pali list lovely people, ... That was late last January from my search of the messages. I thought I had asked this before but could not find it when I
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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                Dear Pali list lovely people,

                > I remembered that you had raised a similar question here before.
                That was late last January from my search of the messages.

                I thought I had asked this before but could not find it when I
                searched the archived messages! How embarrassing!

                Anyway, your answer helped immensely, particularly the Vinaya
                commentary. Thank you Nina and Jim!

                Hopefully by next January I will be reviewing chapter 30, not chapter
                5 (again). :D

                Metta & mudita,
                Natalie
              • natalie_indeed
                Dear Mahinda, This really clarifies everything--as a contracted sentence with an implied verb, of course it would be in the first case. (Light bulb appears
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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                  Dear Mahinda,

                  This really clarifies everything--as a "contracted" sentence with an
                  implied verb, of course it would be in the first case. (Light bulb
                  appears over Natalie's head....)

                  Bohoma isthuti,
                  Natalie
                • Mahinda Palihawadana
                  Dear Jim, I will be glad to try my hand at it once you have posted your message. Regards. Mahinda ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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                    Dear Jim,
                    I will be glad to try my hand at it once you have posted your message.
                    Regards.
                    Mahinda

                    On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson.on@...>wrote:

                    > Dear Mahinda,
                    >
                    > Now, over the past week I have been going over the
                    > Dhammapada commentary on verses Dhp 153-4 (the Housebuilder verses)
                    > and there is one sentence (on Dhp 153d) that I'm having problems
                    > understanding and was wondering if you could help me with it. I can post
                    > the sentence
                    > in another message and explain what I'm able to make of it so far and
                    > point out the problems I'm having with it.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Dear Natalie, Nina and Jim,
                    > >
                    > > Natalie asked why not 'khattiye'. Why did she ask this? Probably she
                    > thought
                    > > of the English equivalent: "Mahagovinda approached those Khattiyas."
                    > If Pali
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Mahinda and Jim, I hope Jim s question on the Dhammapada commentary will be here on list, we all can learn. Mahinda, I hope you help more often, I very
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 20, 2008
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                      Dear Mahinda and Jim,
                      I hope Jim's question on the Dhammapada commentary will be here on
                      list, we all can learn. Mahinda, I hope you help more often, I very
                      much like your clear way of explaining.
                      Nina.
                      Op 20-sep-2008, om 17:32 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:

                      > This really clarifies everything--as a "contracted" sentence with an
                      > implied verb, of course it would be in the first case.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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