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Re: [Pali] The Four Nutriements and manosa~ncetanaa

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  • michael drummond
    Hi Nina, Thank you much for your time in answering my questions. It is very helpful, indeed very much so. Metta, Michael Nina van Gorkom
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 8 11:27 PM
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      Hi Nina,

      Thank you much for your time in answering my questions. It is very helpful, indeed very much so.

      Metta,

      Michael

      Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      Dear Michael,
      welcome here.
      Op 6-sep-2008, om 9:11 heeft msdrummond49 het volgende geschreven:

      > However, I ran across the issue of the 4 Nutriements and am wondering
      > about the factor of manosa~ncetanaa. First, the model of the 4
      > Nutrients is not very often stated in MN or DN: is it moreso
      > examined in the other Nikayas?
      -------
      N: Sammadi.t.thi sutta, MN, no 9. Translated by Ven. Soma and
      Commentary.
      S.N. (II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch VII, the Great Chapter, ?63,
      ChildÂ’s Flesh)
      ------
      >
      > Secondly, it seems that Nyanamoli's/Bodhi's trans
      > of 'manosa~ncetanaa' as mental volition is ok, but knowing what we
      > now know about the ubiquity of emotion, would something like psycho-
      > emotional volition not be more to the point?
      -------
      N: These English terms are so loaded, and different people attach
      different meanings to them. It is to be preferred to use the Pali
      term and find out its meaning in the Tipitaka and Commentaries.
      -------
      >
      > M: Does the prefix 'sa~n' only indicate an intensification of cetanaa,
      > or volition? (ive been looking to find some answers in the PED, but
      > it is tough for me).
      -------
      N: It is sa.m (becomes ~n before c), meaning: with. It is actually
      the cetanaa cetasika (mental factor) accompanying each citta. It is
      mental food, it maintains and supports citta and the other cetasikas.
      When cetanaa is kusala or akusala it can motivate good deeds or evil
      deeds, and it is kamma. Kamma is cetanaa cetasika.
      Cetanaa can also be considered according to the method of the
      Dependent Origination.
      Under this aspect it is cetan?(sa?h?a or kamma-formations) which
      is kusala kamma, akusala kamma or “imperturbable?kamma (?e?a,
      ar??acara kusala kamma), and these kammas produce rebirth. It is
      food for rebirth, it keeps us in the cycle of birth and death.
      -------
      >
      > M: Lastly, would not the term 'manosa~ncetanaa' be rather synonymous
      > with the the 8th and 9th factors of Dep Orig, craving and grasping,
      > as the 8th and 9th factors are obviously the arising of mental
      > volition?
      -------
      N: Tanhaa and upaadana are actually forms of lobha cetasika
      (attachment). No, these are different from cetanaa, kamma-formation,
      but it is said that they are helpers (upakaaraka) of kamma.

      When the links are classified as kamma and vipaaka, a fivefold cause
      is mentioned: ignorance, kamma-formations, craving, clinging and
      volition which is kamma-process becoming. And vipaaka; a fivefold
      fruit: rebirth-linking, which is 'consciousness', descent [into the
      womb], which is 'mentality-materiality', sensitivity, which is 'sense
      base', contact and feeling.).
      (Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 296, 297).
      There are many aspects and many classifications.
      --------

      > M: What of the aggregate sankhara in the 5 Aggs?
      ------
      N: Many meanings of sa"nkhaara, depending on the context. As one of
      the khandhas, it is the khandha of mental factors, cetasikas, except
      feeling, vedanaa, and remembrance, sa~n~naa, which each are a
      separate khandha.
      When speaking of sa"nkhaara dhammas, these include all conditioned
      dhammas, thus, citta, cetasika and ruupa.
      Nina.



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      Michael

      http://www.msdrummond.org


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