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The Four Nutriements and manosa~ncetanaa

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  • msdrummond49
    Dear List Members, My name is Michael and in my academic work I am examining the role of the mindful observation of vedana as a means to awakening in the
    Message 1 of 3 , Sep 6, 2008
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      Dear List Members,

      My name is Michael and in my academic work I am examining the role
      of the mindful observation of vedana as a means to awakening in the
      Majjhima Nikaya.

      However, Iran across the issue of the 4 Nutriements and am wondering
      about the factor of manosa~ncetanaa. First, the model of the 4
      Nutrients is not very often stated in MN or DN: is it moreso
      examined in the other Nikayas?

      Secondly, it seems that Nyanamoli's/Bodhi's trans
      of 'manosa~ncetanaa' as mental volition is ok, but knowing what we
      now know about the ubiquity of emotion, would something like psycho-
      emotional volition not be more to the point?

      Does the prefix 'sa~n' only indicate an intensification of cetanaa,
      or volition? (ive been looking to find some answers in the PED, but
      it is tough for me).

      Lastly, would not the term 'manosa~ncetanaa' be rather synonymous
      with the the 8th and 9th factors of Dep Orig, craving and grasping,
      as the 8th and 9th factors are obviously the arising of mental
      volition? What of the aggregate sankhara in the 5 Aggs?

      Any guidance or ideas on these issues would be greatly appreciated!

      Michael
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Michael, welcome here. ... N: Sammadi.t.thi sutta, MN, no 9. Translated by Ven. Soma and Commentary. S.N. (II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch VII, the
      Message 2 of 3 , Sep 7, 2008
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        Dear Michael,
        welcome here.
        Op 6-sep-2008, om 9:11 heeft msdrummond49 het volgende geschreven:

        > However, I ran across the issue of the 4 Nutriements and am wondering
        > about the factor of manosa~ncetanaa. First, the model of the 4
        > Nutrients is not very often stated in MN or DN: is it moreso
        > examined in the other Nikayas?
        -------
        N: Sammadi.t.thi sutta, MN, no 9. Translated by Ven. Soma and
        Commentary.
        S.N. (II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch VII, the Great Chapter, � 63,
        Child�s Flesh)
        ------
        >
        > Secondly, it seems that Nyanamoli's/Bodhi's trans
        > of 'manosa~ncetanaa' as mental volition is ok, but knowing what we
        > now know about the ubiquity of emotion, would something like psycho-
        > emotional volition not be more to the point?
        -------
        N: These English terms are so loaded, and different people attach
        different meanings to them. It is to be preferred to use the Pali
        term and find out its meaning in the Tipitaka and Commentaries.
        -------
        >
        > M: Does the prefix 'sa~n' only indicate an intensification of cetanaa,
        > or volition? (ive been looking to find some answers in the PED, but
        > it is tough for me).
        -------
        N: It is sa.m (becomes ~n before c), meaning: with. It is actually
        the cetanaa cetasika (mental factor) accompanying each citta. It is
        mental food, it maintains and supports citta and the other cetasikas.
        When cetanaa is kusala or akusala it can motivate good deeds or evil
        deeds, and it is kamma. Kamma is cetanaa cetasika.
        Cetanaa can also be considered according to the method of the
        Dependent Origination.
        Under this aspect it is cetan� (sa�kh�ra or kamma-formations) which
        is kusala kamma, akusala kamma or �imperturbable� kamma (�ne�ja,
        ar�p�vacara kusala kamma), and these kammas produce rebirth. It is
        food for rebirth, it keeps us in the cycle of birth and death.
        -------
        >
        > M: Lastly, would not the term 'manosa~ncetanaa' be rather synonymous
        > with the the 8th and 9th factors of Dep Orig, craving and grasping,
        > as the 8th and 9th factors are obviously the arising of mental
        > volition?
        -------
        N: Tanhaa and upaadana are actually forms of lobha cetasika
        (attachment). No, these are different from cetanaa, kamma-formation,
        but it is said that they are helpers (upakaaraka) of kamma.

        When the links are classified as kamma and vipaaka, a fivefold cause
        is mentioned: ignorance, kamma-formations, craving, clinging and
        volition which is kamma-process becoming. And vipaaka; a fivefold
        fruit: rebirth-linking, which is 'consciousness', descent [into the
        womb], which is 'mentality-materiality', sensitivity, which is 'sense
        base', contact and feeling.).
        (Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 296, 297).
        There are many aspects and many classifications.
        --------

        > M: What of the aggregate sankhara in the 5 Aggs?
        ------
        N: Many meanings of sa"nkhaara, depending on the context. As one of
        the khandhas, it is the khandha of mental factors, cetasikas, except
        feeling, vedanaa, and remembrance, sa~n~naa, which each are a
        separate khandha.
        When speaking of sa"nkhaara dhammas, these include all conditioned
        dhammas, thus, citta, cetasika and ruupa.
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • michael drummond
        Hi Nina, Thank you much for your time in answering my questions. It is very helpful, indeed very much so. Metta, Michael Nina van Gorkom
        Message 3 of 3 , Sep 8, 2008
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          Hi Nina,

          Thank you much for your time in answering my questions. It is very helpful, indeed very much so.

          Metta,

          Michael

          Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          Dear Michael,
          welcome here.
          Op 6-sep-2008, om 9:11 heeft msdrummond49 het volgende geschreven:

          > However, I ran across the issue of the 4 Nutriements and am wondering
          > about the factor of manosa~ncetanaa. First, the model of the 4
          > Nutrients is not very often stated in MN or DN: is it moreso
          > examined in the other Nikayas?
          -------
          N: Sammadi.t.thi sutta, MN, no 9. Translated by Ven. Soma and
          Commentary.
          S.N. (II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch VII, the Great Chapter, ?63,
          Child’s Flesh)
          ------
          >
          > Secondly, it seems that Nyanamoli's/Bodhi's trans
          > of 'manosa~ncetanaa' as mental volition is ok, but knowing what we
          > now know about the ubiquity of emotion, would something like psycho-
          > emotional volition not be more to the point?
          -------
          N: These English terms are so loaded, and different people attach
          different meanings to them. It is to be preferred to use the Pali
          term and find out its meaning in the Tipitaka and Commentaries.
          -------
          >
          > M: Does the prefix 'sa~n' only indicate an intensification of cetanaa,
          > or volition? (ive been looking to find some answers in the PED, but
          > it is tough for me).
          -------
          N: It is sa.m (becomes ~n before c), meaning: with. It is actually
          the cetanaa cetasika (mental factor) accompanying each citta. It is
          mental food, it maintains and supports citta and the other cetasikas.
          When cetanaa is kusala or akusala it can motivate good deeds or evil
          deeds, and it is kamma. Kamma is cetanaa cetasika.
          Cetanaa can also be considered according to the method of the
          Dependent Origination.
          Under this aspect it is cetan?(sa?h?a or kamma-formations) which
          is kusala kamma, akusala kamma or “imperturbable?kamma (?e?a,
          ar??acara kusala kamma), and these kammas produce rebirth. It is
          food for rebirth, it keeps us in the cycle of birth and death.
          -------
          >
          > M: Lastly, would not the term 'manosa~ncetanaa' be rather synonymous
          > with the the 8th and 9th factors of Dep Orig, craving and grasping,
          > as the 8th and 9th factors are obviously the arising of mental
          > volition?
          -------
          N: Tanhaa and upaadana are actually forms of lobha cetasika
          (attachment). No, these are different from cetanaa, kamma-formation,
          but it is said that they are helpers (upakaaraka) of kamma.

          When the links are classified as kamma and vipaaka, a fivefold cause
          is mentioned: ignorance, kamma-formations, craving, clinging and
          volition which is kamma-process becoming. And vipaaka; a fivefold
          fruit: rebirth-linking, which is 'consciousness', descent [into the
          womb], which is 'mentality-materiality', sensitivity, which is 'sense
          base', contact and feeling.).
          (Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 296, 297).
          There are many aspects and many classifications.
          --------

          > M: What of the aggregate sankhara in the 5 Aggs?
          ------
          N: Many meanings of sa"nkhaara, depending on the context. As one of
          the khandhas, it is the khandha of mental factors, cetasikas, except
          feeling, vedanaa, and remembrance, sa~n~naa, which each are a
          separate khandha.
          When speaking of sa"nkhaara dhammas, these include all conditioned
          dhammas, thus, citta, cetasika and ruupa.
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          Michael

          http://www.msdrummond.org


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