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Re: Tipitaka Citations

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  • ong.yongpeng
    Dear Piya and friends, ;-) Piya, I am not sure if you have only addressed half of the issues. However, allow me to clarify for myself. 1. On plagiarism. All
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 28, 2008
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      Dear Piya and friends,

      ;-)

      Piya, I am not sure if you have only addressed half of the issues.
      However, allow me to clarify for myself.

      1. On plagiarism. All solutions (grammar exercises and sutta
      translations) I posted to the group were my personal work, which I am
      happy and delighted to share with the world. Anyone can obtain the
      messages from the group's archive anytime, anywhere, any computer. I
      have never posted solutions on others' behalf, or posted solutions
      worked by others. In fact, that's why I posted them, so that some kind
      souls in the group can check and correct any mistakes I made.

      2. On copyright of materials. The materials I posted to the group are
      always credited. These materials are usually available for "free
      distribution", a term unfamiliar to many people, especially
      non-Buddhists. I do not wish to drag on with this as we understand
      well that the Buddhadhamma is the best gift of all. The materials I
      provide are those adequate for group study and _freely available_ in
      the real world and/or the virtual world.

      I certainly discourage plagiarism and unauthorised copying of
      materials. If anyone notice that due credits have not been given to
      any piece of work, please inform the group. In addition, Yahoo! has a
      http://info.yahoo.com/copyright/details.html page for reporting
      copyright infringements.

      I have previously noted that I am currently working on the Pali
      Document Format (PDF), which will keep me busy for a while.

      However, I reckon it's also time to update the Welcome Message we send
      to new members. Nina helped me with the previous update quite a while
      back. This time, we will also worked on the message footer. It
      currently already includes a link to PDF (which deals with different
      issues). It can also includes a nice little note similar to H-Net, if
      only Piya or anyone likes to contribute to it.


      metta,
      Yong Peng.



      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:

      "Copyright (c) 2005 by H-Net, all rights reserved. H-Net permits the
      redistribution and reprinting of this work for nonprofit, educational
      purposes, *with full and accurate attribution to the author, web
      location, date of publication, originating list*, and H-Net:
      Humanities & Social Sciences Online. For other uses contact the
      Reviews editorial staff: hbooks@..."
    • Jon Fernquest
      Yong Peng: Jon, you mentioned a parallel Pali-English Tipitaka, not the first time. To me, it isn t just a nice thing to have, but an essential tool to be
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 29, 2008
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        Yong Peng: "Jon, you mentioned a parallel Pali-English Tipitaka, not the first
        time. To me, it isn't just a nice thing to have, but an essential tool
        to be acquired. It, however, will be a very involved task and require
        a great deal of effort. The tipitaka.net website can provide the
        platform for it if there is enough interest to start with."

        I think it definitely doable, of course, some sort of open content license for
        editions of Buddhist texts and their translations alogn with proper citation.

        In the end most translations are collaborative efforts because successive
        translators learn from the mistakes of their predecessors. Rhys Davids,
        made mistakes that were corrected by subsequent translators.


        Yong Peng: "Even though I am not a professional and still very new to it,
        parallelcomparative studies of early Buddhist texts is of great interest to
        me. The digital age and the new media it delivers would greatly
        enhance the exchange of knowledge and expertise across the world.
        Please do keep us posted on trends and events in this area."

        Buddhism in Medieval Sri Lanka by H.B.M. Ilangasinha (based on a SOAS
        PhD dissertation) which I am reading now, gives the reader a good idea of
        the richness and complexity surrounding Buddhist traditions. Many of which
        were transmitted to Burma.

        I have one paper in the works on the Burmese king Bayinnaung (1550-
        1581), relics, and relations with Sri Lanka. There's definitely a mystery in
        this case, as the Burmese chronicle claims he received the relics from
        Dhammapala, two times circa 1554 and circa 1576, but Dhammapala was
        converted to Catholicism in 1557. Bayinnaung enshrined these relics as far
        away as the Tai statelet of Mong Mit on the border with Yunnan (a famous
        source of precious stones during the Ming dynasty). The descriptions of
        these enshrinements are rich in detail and were definitely an important part
        of the conversion of the Tai groups to Buddhism. Relics were also
        enshrined at places of victory in battle and the tusk of Bayinnaung's war
        elephant that broke offin battle was also enshrined. Some people from a
        contemporary perspective want to draw lines around what they consider
        Buddhism and not Buddhism (enshrining the tooth of a war elephant is
        definitely pushing it), but I believe Buddhism has always existed as a unique
        hybrid in every culture that has adopted it, the western socially conscious
        Buddhism also being one example. Anyway, my goal is just to objectively
        document history as recorded, not make normative arguments.
      • ong.yongpeng
        Dear Jon, thanks for sharing the story. Can I say this Dhammapala isn t one of three well-known ones, as you may read on Wikipedia?
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 30, 2008
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          Dear Jon,

          thanks for sharing the story. Can I say this Dhammapala isn't one of
          three well-known ones, as you may read on Wikipedia?

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapala

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

          I have one paper in the works on the Burmese king Bayinnaung
          (1550-1581), relics, and relations with Sri Lanka. There's definitely
          a mystery in this case, as the Burmese chronicle claims he received
          the relics from Dhammapala, two times circa 1554 and circa 1576, but
          Dhammapala was converted to Catholicism in 1557. Bayinnaung enshrined
          these relics as far away as the Tai statelet of Mong Mit on the border
          with Yunnan (a famous source of precious stones during the Ming
          dynasty). The descriptions of these enshrinements are rich in detail
          and were definitely an important part of the conversion of the Tai
          groups to Buddhism. Relics were also enshrined at places of victory in
          battle and the tusk of Bayinnaung's war elephant that broke offin
          battle was also enshrined. Some people from a contemporary perspective
          want to draw lines around what they consider Buddhism and not Buddhism
          (enshrining the tooth of a war elephant is definitely pushing it), but
          I believe Buddhism has always existed as a unique hybrid in every
          culture that has adopted it, the western socially conscious Buddhism
          also being one example. Anyway, my goal is just to objectively
          document history as recorded, not make normative arguments.
        • ong.yongpeng
          Dear Jon, yes, it is huge collaboration, but nonetheless manageable. Translation efforts itself will involve various skill sets. In addition, it will also
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 30, 2008
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            Dear Jon,

            yes, it is huge collaboration, but nonetheless manageable. Translation
            efforts itself will involve various skill sets. In addition, it will
            also involve editorial, administrative and technical support efforts.

            To start with, do you have any particular Tipitaka edition in mind?
            This is not a trick question, but it can get tricky (read sensitive).

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

            Yong Peng: "Jon, you mentioned a parallel Pali-English Tipitaka, not
            the first time. To me, it isn't just a nice thing to have, but an
            essential tool to be acquired. It, however, will be a very involved
            task and require a great deal of effort. The tipitaka.net website can
            provide the platform for it if there is enough interest to start with."

            I think it definitely doable, of course, some sort of open content
            license for editions of Buddhist texts and their translations alogn
            with proper citation.

            In the end most translations are collaborative efforts because
            successive translators learn from the mistakes of their predecessors.
            Rhys Davids, made mistakes that were corrected by subsequent translators.
          • Jon Fernquest
            Dear Yong Peng; ... This king was more notorious than famous, notorious for handing over everything that belonged to the sangha to the Portuguese and the
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 30, 2008
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              Dear Yong Peng;

              > thanks for sharing the story. Can I say this Dhammapala isn't one of
              > three well-known ones, as you may read on Wikipedia?
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapala

              This king was more notorious than famous, notorious for handing over
              everything that belonged to the sangha to the Portuguese and the
              Catholic church (the Sangha itself must have fled, will have to look for
              details here):

              Dom Joaõ Dharmapala 1551-1597, grandson and heir of Bhuvanekabãhu
              VII, submitted to baptism as a Christian in late 1556, ceded his kingdom
              and all rights and claims, including to 'subordinate kingdoms' of
              Sitawake & Kandy, etc. to the King of Portugal on his death.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Sri_Lanka#Kingdom_of_Ko
              tte_.281412.E2.80.931597.29

              http://lakdiva.org/codrington/chap06.html

              Dr. Alan Strathern of Cambridge specialises in this turbulent era of Sri
              Lanka's history:
              http://www.s-asian.cam.ac.uk/strathern.html

              Sincerely,
              Jon
            • Jon Fernquest
              Dear Yong Peng; ... The only online Pali versions that I ve ever used are the CSCD versions. As for the English translations, the copyright on the Rhys Davids
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 30, 2008
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                Dear Yong Peng;

                > To start with, do you have any particular Tipitaka edition in mind?
                > This is not a trick question, but it can get tricky (read sensitive).

                The only online Pali versions that I've ever used are the CSCD versions.

                As for the English translations, the copyright on the Rhys Davids
                translations must have run out already. Wonder why it hasn't been
                scanned and put online?

                Sacred texts of Buddhism would seem to be a prime candidate for open
                source content licenses (creative commons licenses) which really seem
                to be in the spirit of dana or sharing.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_content
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses

                I have to admit though that I know absolutely about the ins and outs of
                the politics in Buddhist religious hierarchies that must be involved in
                getting official permission to use texts. Off course, as has been
                mentioned. some organisations simply feel free to use sacred texts
                without concern about having permission, which actually doesn't bother
                me, but is not something I would personally do.

                Sincerely,
                Jon

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "ong.yongpeng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Jon,
                >
                > yes, it is huge collaboration, but nonetheless manageable. Translation
                > efforts itself will involve various skill sets. In addition, it will
                > also involve editorial, administrative and technical support efforts.
                >
                > To start with, do you have any particular Tipitaka edition in mind?
                > This is not a trick question, but it can get tricky (read sensitive).
                >
                > metta,
                > Yong Peng.
                >
                >
                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:
                >
                > Yong Peng: "Jon, you mentioned a parallel Pali-English Tipitaka, not
                > the first time. To me, it isn't just a nice thing to have, but an
                > essential tool to be acquired. It, however, will be a very involved
                > task and require a great deal of effort. The tipitaka.net website can
                > provide the platform for it if there is enough interest to start with."
                >
                > I think it definitely doable, of course, some sort of open content
                > license for editions of Buddhist texts and their translations alogn
                > with proper citation.
                >
                > In the end most translations are collaborative efforts because
                > successive translators learn from the mistakes of their predecessors.
                > Rhys Davids, made mistakes that were corrected by subsequent
                translators.
                >
              • ong.yongpeng
                Dear Jon, thank you. I now see that you are referring to a king Dhammapala (of Sri Lanka), who gave away his kingdom. metta, Yong Peng. ... This king was more
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 1, 2008
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                  Dear Jon,

                  thank you. I now see that you are referring to a king Dhammapala (of
                  Sri Lanka), who gave away his kingdom.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

                  This king was more notorious than famous, notorious for handing over
                  everything that belonged to the sangha to the Portuguese and the
                  Catholic church (the Sangha itself must have fled, will have to look
                  for details here)
                • ong.yongpeng
                  Dear Jon, I have been mainly using CSCD edition of the Tipitaka for our sutta translation exercises. (CST4, which is currently under development, will
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 1, 2008
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                    Dear Jon,

                    I have been mainly using CSCD edition of the Tipitaka for our sutta
                    translation exercises. (CST4, which is currently under development,
                    will eventually succeed CSCD.) In addition, there are other editions
                    freely available online. We also have a wiki which aims to make
                    browsing SLTP (from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics site) easier.

                    Our future sutta translation exercises will continue using CSCD (and
                    CST4), I may also use SLTP and other public domain and open content
                    versions, to encourage and support good works in Dhamma publications.
                    I mainly use CSCD because I can browse the CD-ROM contents offline.

                    If you search for Rhys Davids on Google, you may find several of his
                    works already available online. By using a dual screen, with multiple
                    windows open and displaying Pali in one and English (or other
                    languages) in the other(s), you can easily set up a simple parallel
                    Tipitaka.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

                    The only online Pali versions that I've ever used are the CSCD versions.

                    As for the English translations, the copyright on the Rhys Davids
                    translations must have run out already. Wonder why it hasn't been
                    scanned and put online?
                  • Jon Fernquest
                    Dear Yong Peng; I have been mainly using CSCD edition of the Tipitaka for our sutta translation exercises. (CST4, which is currently under development, will
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 10, 2008
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                      Dear Yong Peng;

                      "I have been mainly using CSCD edition of the Tipitaka for our sutta

                      translation exercises. (CST4, which is currently under development,

                      will eventually succeed CSCD.) In addition, there are other editions

                      freely available online. We also have a wiki which aims to make

                      browsing SLTP (from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics site) easier."


                      Thank you for the information about CST4 and SLTP.
                      I wasn't aware of their existence.
                      Where is the Wiki?


                      "If you search for Rhys Davids on Google, you may find several of his

                      works already available online. By using a dual screen, with multiple

                      windows open and displaying Pali in one and English (or other

                      languages) in the other(s), you can easily set up a simple parallel

                      Tipitaka."

                      I do something like this sometimes but it takes a long time,
                      slowed down finding the matching text between the Pali and English.

                      One of these days I'm going to try my hand with statistical based alignment of the Pali Jatakas. with their English translation. I have all the necessary texts on my hard drive now.
                      It requires some creative programming but there  are papers  detailing the techniques.

                      First, you'd need to lematise the words, eliminate inflection and conjugation, map the nouns to third person singular and verbs to their stem (or something like that). Then the search engine searches on these lematised words.
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmatisation

                      The result of a query would be Pali sentences and their English translation. I use two corpuses everyday to create phrases to practice reading a word. Ideally I would include the Thai translation but I only use a single language corpus:
                      http://www.americancorpus.org/
                      http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/
                      http://www.readbangkokpost.com/businesswords/

                      Such a search engine for Pali sentences aligned with their translation could be used as the basis of induction driven language learning. Buddhadata-like sentences are great because they simplify the grammar but real life sentences are a lot tougher as I.B. Horner's little parallel Pali-English Jataka reader makes clear.

                      With metta,
                      Jon Fernquest

                       

                      --- On Fri, 8/1/08, ong.yongpeng <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                      From: ong.yongpeng <pali.smith@...>
                      Subject: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka Citations
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 8:42 PM











                      Dear Jon,



                      I have been mainly using CSCD edition of the Tipitaka for our sutta

                      translation exercises. (CST4, which is currently under development,

                      will eventually succeed CSCD.) In addition, there are other editions

                      freely available online. We also have a wiki which aims to make

                      browsing SLTP (from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics site) easier.



                      Our future sutta translation exercises will continue using CSCD (and

                      CST4), I may also use SLTP and other public domain and open content

                      versions, to encourage and support good works in Dhamma publications.

                      I mainly use CSCD because I can browse the CD-ROM contents offline.



                      If you search for Rhys Davids on Google, you may find several of his

                      works already available online. By using a dual screen, with multiple

                      windows open and displaying Pali in one and English (or other

                      languages) in the other(s), you can easily set up a simple parallel

                      Tipitaka.



                      metta,

                      Yong Peng.



                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, Jon Fernquest wrote:



                      The only online Pali versions that I've ever used are the CSCD versions.



                      As for the English translations, the copyright on the Rhys Davids

                      translations must have run out already. Wonder why it hasn't been

                      scanned and put online?





























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ong.yongpeng
                      Dear Jon and friends, the wiki is here: http://tipitaka.pbwiki.com/ Again, anyone keen in helping to complete the entire tipitaka, please let me know. Jon, as
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 11, 2008
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                        Dear Jon and friends,

                        the wiki is here: http://tipitaka.pbwiki.com/

                        Again, anyone keen in helping to complete the entire tipitaka, please
                        let me know.

                        Jon, as for your proposed work, statistics is an area which I like.
                        ;-) The group has completed the whole of AN1 in trilinear format,
                        which you may find helpful. I have also done some foundation works on
                        Pali Scope, http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/scope/. You are welcome to
                        use the data as required. If you are interested, you are also welcome
                        to provide assistance to the project (Pali Scope). The project is very
                        extensive, the first phase is to build up a substantial repository of
                        Pali words directly from the Tipitaka (probably only AN of Sutta
                        Pitaka). As a lexicordance, it will eventually have a lexicon and a
                        concordance built to utilise the database. A parallel translator can
                        also be incorporated, if you like to provide the technical
                        functionalities.

                        Unlike the wikis, Pali Scope is not open for free editing, but any
                        information on Pali Scope is free for use.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

                        Where is the Wiki?

                        One of these days I'm going to try my hand with statistical based
                        alignment of the Pali Jatakas. with their English translation. I have
                        all the necessary texts on my hard drive now.
                        It requires some creative programming but there� are papers� detailing
                        the techniques.

                        First, you'd need to lematise the words, eliminate inflection and
                        conjugation, map the nouns to third person singular and verbs to their
                        stem (or something like that). Then the search engine searches on
                        these lematised words.
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmatisation
                      • Jon Fernquest
                        Dear Yong Peng; ... Yes, I would very much like to help out. But it will have to be slowly because working at the online part of a newspaper I publish 65
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 12, 2008
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                          Dear Yong Peng;

                          > Again, anyone keen in helping to complete the entire tipitaka, please
                          > let me know.

                          Yes, I would very much like to help out.
                          But it will have to be slowly because working
                          at the online part of a newspaper I publish 65 articles
                          a month on economics and business in Thailand so
                          my brain is usually resembles scrambled eggs.

                          For an interesting example of lemmatization, check out volume I
                          (nouns.pdf) on the following site at INRIA:

                          http://sanskrit.inria.fr/

                          Every entry is a little information preserving map between
                          the inflected Sanskrit form and the uninflected form with
                          the grammatical information that specifies the inflection.
                          Unfortunately, this doesn't exist for Pali yet.

                          Have you seen the following sites?

                          http://sanskrit.inria.fr/
                          http://ralyx.inria.fr/2007/Raweb/signes/uid43.html
                          http://ralyx.inria.fr/2007/Raweb/signes/uid39.html

                          Author of tools:
                          http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/

                          Sanskrit has all the necessary tools written already,
                          albeit in CAML, a functional language.
                          including a declension engine that adds grammatical inflections
                          and a lemmatiser that maps them to their basic (stem) form.
                          They don't appear to be open source.

                          Institut national de recherche en informatique et en automatique (INRIA)
                          (English: National Institute for Research in Computer Science and
                          Control) is a French national research institution focusing on computer
                          science, control theory and applied mathematics.
                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INRIA

                          For looking up Pali words a full dictionary
                          with fully inflected forms similar to this one
                          would be highly useful. Right now there is just
                          too many missing entries:

                          http://www.dicts.info/dictionary.php?k1=1&k2=442

                          With metta,
                          Jon Fernquest
                        • ong.yongpeng
                          Dear Jon, thanks for the reference sites. The one quoted below is real interesting. I do foresee the lexicon section of PaliScope to provide full paradigms of
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 12, 2008
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                            Dear Jon,

                            thanks for the reference sites. The one quoted below is real
                            interesting. I do foresee the lexicon section of PaliScope to provide
                            full paradigms of nouns and verbs as you mentioned.

                            In addition to what is discussed so far, we would also need advice and
                            assistance in two major areas. First, linguistic experts to advise on
                            stuff like lemmatization, and so on. Second, Pali readers who can
                            provide cross-referencing over several editions of the Tipitaka.

                            Hence, I believe the project will be a progressive one, where data and
                            functionality are added over time. Please let me know when you are
                            ready to start.

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

                            Yes, I would very much like to help out. But it will have to be slowly
                            because working at the online part of a newspaper I publish 65
                            articles a month on economics and business in Thailand so my brain is
                            usually resembles scrambled eggs.

                            For looking up Pali words a full dictionary with fully inflected forms
                            similar to this one would be highly useful. Right now there is just
                            too many missing entries:

                            http://www.dicts.info/dictionary.php?k1=1&k2=442
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