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Re: noble truth

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  • joseph
    Dear friends While I agree with the general idea, The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the hindrance to the achievment of liberation.
    Message 1 of 27 , May 3, 2008
      Dear friends
      While I agree with the general idea,
      The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the
      hindrance to the achievment of liberation.

      Nibbana is actually not equanimity, and it is nothing less of
      Nibbana that should be aspired for.
      it is the release of any desire, even that to abandon suffering.
      Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
      brain space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words
      in the most conventional way.
      so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if you look at the
      definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not pessimistic or
      nihilistic, the understanding is such.
      the presence of wisdom is the reason, the support, the truth of
      Nibbana, and by that, any of these adverbs is rendered inadaquate.

      if it does not seem to make sense, remember that it is anna:
      of a different wisdom, a different kind of consciousness.

      Metta
      Jothiko




      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Leo,
      >
      > No, quite definitely the first noble truth cannot be interpreted
      > simply as "life has suffering". This would clearly be just a
      > watering-down of what the Buddha is actually saying.
      >
      > From the Buddha's first discourse (Dhammacakkhappavattana Sutta)
      we have:
      > "Ida.m kho pana bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m: Jaati’pi
      dukkhaa,
      > jaraa’pi dukkhaa, vyaadhi’pi dukkho, mara.nampi dukkha.m.
      Appiyehi
      > sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho. Yampiccha.m na labhati
      > tampi dukkha.m. Sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa."
      > "Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
      > suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is
      > suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation
      > from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is
      > suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are
      > suffering."
      >
      > The Buddha is not at all denying that there is happiness in life -
      > there is plenty - but it is essentially the fact that we cling to
      > whatever is pleasant that brings us suffering, because all is
      > impermanent. The Buddha exhorts us to develop equanimity with
      whatever
      > is pleasant or unpleasant. Then a byproduct is that our
      happinesses
      > will be greater, since we will just be in the present with them,
      and
      > not consciously or subconsciously creating suffering for ourselves
      by
      > clinging to that happiness and wanting it to last. Similarly our
      > pains in life will be lessened, because with equanimity again we
      > simply stay in the present with them and we eliminate all the
      mental
      > proliferation of thinking about our pain that intensifies our
      > suffering. Of course, this is all much easier said than done -
      because
      > of the roots of greed, aversion, and delusion that are within us.
      But
      > that's what the Buddhist practice is all about.
      >
      > I hope this is a little helpful.
      >
      > With metta,
      > John
      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leoaive@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi
      > >
      > > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth.
      > > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is
      suffereing.
      > > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different
      happiness
      > > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble
      Truth
      > > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all
      suffering)
      > > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be
      translated
      > > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language.
      > >
      > > With Metta
      > >
      > > Leo
      > >
      >
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Bhante, your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar analysis to
      Message 2 of 27 , May 6, 2008
        Bhante,

        your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
        word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
        analysis to sukha? Thanks.


        metta,
        Yong Peng.

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:

        Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual brain
        space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
        most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if
        you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
        pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
      • Gunnar Gällmo
        Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the Suttanipata? I used to find it at
        Message 3 of 27 , May 6, 2008
          Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version
          of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the
          Suttanipata? I used to find it at
          http://www.palikanon.com/khuddaka/sn , but now I get a
          message that "Looks like the page you're looking for
          was moved or never existed". It did exist, so where
          has it moved?

          Gunnar


          http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto


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        • joseph
          Dear Friends Specifically Kha is related to `one s environment (probably K.R.Norman),One s space . Maybe even relates to `Aura .the physical energy that
          Message 4 of 27 , May 7, 2008
            Dear Friends
            Specifically Kha is related to `one's environment'(probably
            K.R.Norman),One's space'. Maybe even relates to `Aura'.the physical
            energy that surrounds the body.
            While, funny enough. This is a reference to the mind, the may we
            say, `non Physical brain'
            Mana' the ignorant man constant thinking is by Comparing
            himself with others, asmi mana is conceit and maana is measuring.
            Du Manasa relates specifically to depression, which is only one facet
            of Dhuka.

            probably even NamaRupa may relate to the reality that is experienced
            as Mind and Brain, since the body, and Physical reality, is truly the
            experience related to the Physical brain, only by extention, we
            think, or there is in this conditioned view of the body.
            This is per se, when the Buddha says `There is a body' Atthi Kayo.
            We are faced with a reality, undeniable experience.
            So this is again an example of the Indian mind set. And the vital
            necessity to see the
            Circumstances of the lessons, much in the way a Sutta lesson, should
            be seen at it's context, the wider, and the specific one.

            any way I like to think about the logical way this highly idiomatic
            language forms.
            Based on simple, logical conventions of speech and common
            understanding,
            Often the Pali translation is difficult not only in grammatical
            terms but possibly in deeper rooted convictions, maybe it boils down
            too, eventually to our view of a `self',

            It's a little beside the point, and may look pretentious and high,
            but there this example Of the quantum mechanics Theory
            Quantum mechanics taught us that there is no objective point of view,
            no observer that is outside the system, it is, I think, easy to see
            the Buddhist relevance of it, as the
            `not self' characteristic of existence. Anatta.

            Consciousness is a biological necessity and responds accordingly,
            with the necessary self deceit and profit seeking.
            No truth but seeing this very process.

            The meaning of Nibbana is just this `stopping of the game', resting
            from the universal laws of desire, hatred and delusion which push us
            to participate in the formation of further actions, preparations and
            intentions Sankhara.
            This process-game' is based on our ignorance to the fact that there
            is no entity, point of view, absolute reality which is `Me'

            Our binding action starts by desire, longing, which, because of
            ignorance make us believe in the possibility of real satisfaction,
            real realization in this world or beyond it, as religious
            gratification.

            Now this is a dangerous point and must it be understood that there is
            no place for nihilism, destructive psychological tendencies and so
            on, it is simply often beyond our capacity to face the void, the
            emotional emptiness which is the basic nature of reality, existence,
            the world.
            so we often run, with the encouragement of an ego mental protection,
            in to illusion, a religion , taking side on order to belong..

            materialism too is making for a philosophy, a belief, even the
            Atheist.
            attachment to logic, a view of a future hope of success.
            science, though taking the quantum opportuinity per se, is not
            manifesting a belief in the passive freedom that is opened up, it
            cannot function that way, it remains the tool of progress and greed.

            This is not bad; it's actually a social reality.
            But truth can be experienced and realized, it may need training, as
            it rises only at the space that is created by inner quietude,
            serenity, peacefulness.
            I think the use of the word `space' is most satisfactory.

            Su Kha is happiness, mental exhilaration that contains physical or
            mental feeling.
            Both can be experienced as a bodily experience.
            But the duality su/du
            may also relate to `the bad path' the un wholesome way which stands
            in relation to the Eight fold path (see M.N. 117).
            While here the idea of Samma is crucial.

            Nibbana, by reality and definition, is `the cessation of the causes
            of the bad' The simple denial of the cause, not `happy or `sad'.

            It relates to a mind attitude, feeling, reality circumstances and
            above all, to rebirth, re enactment of existence in illusion, life.

            Equanimity is quite close, but it lacks the Quantum! leap of the
            light which has a quality of Metta, the active avoidance of
            attachment, which , in relation to a 'self' is 'other' Anna.

            `Since Nibbana exists, the way to develop it is the only wisdom'.
            Hence Buddhism,
            but simply, understanding this Can be, must be, implemented as part
            of any world view,
            it's easy to see the case above as relating to one worldly way, but
            religion, even in a
            clearer fashion should be a base for the Dhamma.
            the Buddha himself has accepted the old Indian gods.
            the Tibetans , too, has Idam, a personal god, a protector of the
            search for the Dhamma.
            .Sri lankan have gods to refer to when trouble (the chief one is
            Kataragama, the residence, the name of the town here)
            The Jewish Shekhina' is similar, I think it is presence', or the
            Indian concept of Shakti, the power, presence, manifestation, female
            side of the various gods.
            This is advanced theology, too much actually.
            It may be any chosen god of belief, why not?

            But a belief that negates the quantum is a wrong view which lead to
            suffering…
            No god is this eternal point, the causeless cause, whatever the
            religious imaginations like to make of their traditional, past based
            yearnings.

            Now there is the presence of the path, that means the right way.
            The preliminary thought may be connected to belief, faith, which is a
            good place to start, but not necessarily, not, as we show, as a
            matter of taking sides, but a personal,
            Lonely often, experience of the consequences of truth,

            Sorry, I was writing a sermon when I saw the letter, so it all came
            out like that..
            I meant to elaborate more about the linguistic aspect, as you see,
            amateurism may sometimes be an advantage.

            I also find, in order to fully engulf some unnecessary conventions,
            it may be helpful to
            See some ideas of later Buddhist schools, and even of the Indian
            sphere.

            Metta
            Jothiko


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bhante,
            >
            > your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
            > word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
            > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
            >
            >
            > metta,
            > Yong Peng.
            >
            > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:
            >
            > Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
            brain
            > space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
            > most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble,
            if
            > you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
            > pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
            >
          • joseph
            ... can we apply similar ... Dear friends Su = good, positive Kha = space, presence. the idiom of positive space can be seen as three fold: amisa sukha -
            Message 5 of 27 , May 9, 2008
              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
              >
              can we apply similar
              > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
              >
              Dear friends
              Su = good, positive
              Kha = space, presence.
              the idiom of 'positive space' can be seen as three fold:

              amisa sukha - physical-emotional bliss, an ingredient of the first
              jhana, where body and bliss are, like a sponge 'fully saturated with
              water'.

              niramisa sukha - mental emotional happiness, of the third jhana,
              where equanimity which is 'inspection from a high point', gives the
              image of lotus flowers of various colors, fully immersed in water.

              sukha = satisfaction, finding fulfilment.
              hence 'kama sukalika' = satisfaction with the sphere of the senses.
              'sukha vipasana' = satisfaction with the thoughtful inquiry.
              (the dry aspect is also in relation to the duality, the mnaturity of
              the wood that can be burned
              'nibbana paramam sukham = cessation is the satisfaction of
              (attaining)the beyond'.

              The MahaArahat Venerable Sariputta explains that Nibbana is happiness
              exactly because it is devoid of feelings.

              Metta
              Jothiko
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