Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

AN I.333

Expand Messages
  • John Kelly
    Dear Branko, I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence: Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Branko,

      I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
      Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
      karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
      evameva.n = so too
      kho = indeed
      bhikkhave = bhikkhus
      appakaa = few
      te = those
      sattaa beings
      ye = which
      vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
      vavassagga = relinquishment
      aramma.na.m = support, basis
      karitvaa = having made/done
      labhanti = they gain
      samadhi.m =concentration

      "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
      taken relinquishment as its support ..."

      With metta,
      John
      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear Yong Peng,
      >
      > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
      extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
      passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
      wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
      >
      > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
      vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
      figure out:
      >
      > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
      vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
      > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
      annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
      >
      > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
      >
      > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
      For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
      > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
      > liberation from the cycle."
      > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
      these expressions.
      >
      > Many thanks,
      > Branko
      >
    • Branislav Kovacevic
      Dear John, many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage. Let it bring you much happiness. Metta, Branko John Kelly wrote:
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear John,

        many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
        Let it bring you much happiness.

        Metta,
        Branko



        John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Branko,

        I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
        Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
        karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
        evameva.n = so too
        kho = indeed
        bhikkhave = bhikkhus
        appakaa = few
        te = those
        sattaa beings
        ye = which
        vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
        vavassagga = relinquishment
        aramma.na.m = support, basis
        karitvaa = having made/done
        labhanti = they gain
        samadhi.m =concentration

        "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
        taken relinquishment as its support ..."

        With metta,
        John
        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Yong Peng,
        >
        > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
        extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
        passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
        wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
        >
        > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
        vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
        figure out:
        >
        > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
        vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
        > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
        annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
        >
        > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
        >
        > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
        For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
        > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
        > liberation from the cycle."
        > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
        these expressions.
        >
        > Many thanks,
        > Branko
        >






        ---------------------------------
        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • johnny pruitt
        Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu
          It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.

          Johnny

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

          Dear Yong Peng,

          of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.

          In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:

          333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
          334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m laabhino...

          aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?

          I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
          "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
          liberation from the cycle."
          but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these expressions.

          Many thanks,
          Branko

          Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,

          Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
          me, since a reference was made about my postings.

          The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
          would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
          recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.

          ------------ --------- --------- ---
          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          <!--

          #ygrp-mkp{
          border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}
          #ygrp-mkp hr{
          border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
          #ygrp-mkp #hd{
          color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
          #ygrp-mkp #ads{
          margin-bottom:10px;}
          #ygrp-mkp .ad{
          padding:0 0;}
          #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
          color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
          -->

          <!--

          #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
          font-family:Arial;}
          #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
          margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
          #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
          margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
          -->

          <!--

          #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
          #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
          #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
          #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
          #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
          #ygrp-text{
          font-family:Georgia;
          }
          #ygrp-text p{
          margin:0 0 1em 0;}
          #ygrp-tpmsgs{
          font-family:Arial;
          clear:both;}
          #ygrp-vitnav{
          padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
          #ygrp-vitnav a{
          padding:0 1px;}
          #ygrp-actbar{
          clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
          #ygrp-actbar .left{
          float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
          .bld{font-weight:bold;}
          #ygrp-grft{
          font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
          #ygrp-ft{
          font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
          padding:5px 0;
          }
          #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
          padding-bottom:10px;}

          #ygrp-vital{
          background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
          #ygrp-vital #vithd{
          font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
          #ygrp-vital ul{
          padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
          #ygrp-vital ul li{
          list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
          }
          #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
          font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
          #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
          font-weight:bold;}
          #ygrp-vital a{
          text-decoration:none;}

          #ygrp-vital a:hover{
          text-decoration:underline;}

          #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
          color:#999;font-size:77%;}
          #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
          padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
          #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
          padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
          #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
          list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
          #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
          text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
          #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
          background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
          #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
          padding:8px 0;}
          #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
          font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
          #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
          text-decoration:none;}
          #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
          text-decoration:underline;}
          #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
          margin:0;}
          o{font-size:0;}
          .MsoNormal{
          margin:0 0 0 0;}
          #ygrp-text tt{
          font-size:120%;}
          blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
          .replbq{margin:4;}
          -->






          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mahinda Palihawadana
          Dear Johnny, This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement. How would it read, if you translate it back into English? Mahipaliha ...
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 7, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Johnny,

            This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
            How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

            Mahipaliha


            On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@...> wrote:
            >
            > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga.no/> bhava.m attu
            > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
            > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
            > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
            > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
            > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
            >
            > Johnny
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...<ja_sam_branko%40yahoo.com>
            > >
            > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
            >
            > Dear Yong Peng,
            >
            > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
            > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
            > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
            > I've added a footnote for the reader.
            >
            > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
            > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
            >
            > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
            > samadhi.m...
            > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
            > laabhino...
            >
            > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
            >
            > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
            > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
            > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
            > liberation from the cycle."
            > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
            > expressions.
            >
            > Many thanks,
            > Branko
            >
            > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
            >
            > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
            > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
            >
            > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
            > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
            > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ---
            > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > <!--
            >
            > #ygrp-mkp{
            > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px
            > 14px;}
            > #ygrp-mkp hr{
            > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
            > #ygrp-mkp #hd{
            > color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px
            > 0px;}
            > #ygrp-mkp #ads{
            > margin-bottom:10px;}
            > #ygrp-mkp .ad{
            > padding:0 0;}
            > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
            > color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
            > -->
            >
            > <!--
            >
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
            > font-family:Arial;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
            > margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
            > margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
            > -->
            >
            > <!--
            >
            > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean,
            > sans-serif;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean,
            > sans-serif;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
            > #ygrp-text{
            > font-family:Georgia;
            > }
            > #ygrp-text p{
            > margin:0 0 1em 0;}
            > #ygrp-tpmsgs{
            > font-family:Arial;
            > clear:both;}
            > #ygrp-vitnav{
            > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
            > #ygrp-vitnav a{
            > padding:0 1px;}
            > #ygrp-actbar{
            > clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
            > #ygrp-actbar .left{
            > float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
            > .bld{font-weight:bold;}
            > #ygrp-grft{
            > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
            > #ygrp-ft{
            > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
            > padding:5px 0;
            > }
            > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
            > padding-bottom:10px;}
            >
            > #ygrp-vital{
            > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
            > #ygrp-vital #vithd{
            >
            > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
            > #ygrp-vital ul{
            > padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
            > #ygrp-vital ul li{
            > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
            > }
            > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
            >
            > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
            > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
            > font-weight:bold;}
            > #ygrp-vital a{
            > text-decoration:none;}
            >
            > #ygrp-vital a:hover{
            > text-decoration:underline;}
            >
            > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
            > color:#999;font-size:77%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
            > padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
            > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
            > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
            > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
            > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
            > padding:8px 0;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
            >
            > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
            > text-decoration:none;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
            > text-decoration:underline;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
            > margin:0;}
            > o{font-size:0;}
            > .MsoNormal{
            > margin:0 0 0 0;}
            > #ygrp-text tt{
            > font-size:120%;}
            > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
            > .replbq{margin:4;}
            > -->
            >
            > __________________________________________________________
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
            > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mahipaliha
            Dear friends, I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed. i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only today that I
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 10, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear friends,
              I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed.
              i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only
              today that I got a copy from a friend. This is what it says: In a
              well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
              the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
              They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
              much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
              donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
              given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
              go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
              physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
              also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
              good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
              religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
              measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
              Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).

              I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
              time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
              organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
              that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
              don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.

              Mahipaliha

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
              wrote:

              > Dear John,
              >
              > many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
              > Let it bring you much happiness.
              >
              > Metta,
              > Branko
              >
              >
              >
              > John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
              Dear Branko,
              >
              > I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the
              sentence:
              > Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
              vavassaggaaramma.na.m
              > karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
              > evameva.n = so too
              > kho = indeed
              > bhikkhave = bhikkhus
              > appakaa = few
              > te = those
              > sattaa beings
              > ye = which
              > vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa
              compound)
              > vavassagga = relinquishment
              > aramma.na.m = support, basis
              > karitvaa = having made/done
              > labhanti = they gain
              > samadhi.m =concentration
              >
              > "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration
              having
              > taken relinquishment as its support ..."
              >
              > With metta,
              > John
              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Yong Peng,
              > >
              > > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
              > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of
              that
              > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
              > wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
              > >
              > > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the
              fourth
              > vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I
              can't
              > figure out:
              > >
              > > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
              > vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
              > > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
              > annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
              > >
              > > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
              > >
              > > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a
              problem.
              > For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
              > > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to
              attain
              > > liberation from the cycle."
              > > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
              > these expressions.
              > >
              > > Many thanks,
              > > Branko
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
              Yahoo! Search.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Mahipaliha, ... N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem, of
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 11, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Mahipaliha,

                Op 11-mrt-2008, om 0:57 heeft mahipaliha het volgende geschreven:

                > In a
                > well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
                > the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
                > They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
                > much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
                > donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
                > given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
                > go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
                > physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
                > also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
                > good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
                > religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
                > measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
                > Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).
                >
                > I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
                > time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
                > organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
                > that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
                > don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.
                -------
                N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being
                contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem,
                of having to think of what is not original.
                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • johnny pruitt
                well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct. ...
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 14, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct.

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, March 7, 2008 5:39:54 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

                  Dear Johnny,

                  This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
                  How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

                  Mahipaliha

                  On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  >
                  > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga. no/> bhava.m attu
                  > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
                  > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
                  > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
                  > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
                  > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
                  >
                  > Johnny
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@ yahoo.com<ja_sam_branko% 40yahoo.com>
                  > >
                  > To: Pali@yahoogroups. com <Pali%40yahoogroups .com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
                  >
                  > Dear Yong Peng,
                  >
                  > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                  > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                  > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
                  > I've added a footnote for the reader.
                  >
                  > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
                  > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
                  >
                  > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
                  > samadhi.m...
                  > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
                  > laabhino...
                  >
                  > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                  >
                  > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
                  > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                  > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                  > liberation from the cycle."
                  > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
                  > expressions.
                  >
                  > Many thanks,
                  > Branko
                  >
                  > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@ gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
                  >
                  > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                  > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
                  >
                  > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                  > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                  > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                  > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > <!--
                  >
                  > #ygrp-mkp{
                  > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font- family:Arial; margin:14px 0px;padding: 0px
                  > 14px;}
                  > #ygrp-mkp hr{
                  > border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                  > #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                  > color:#628c2a; font-size: 85%;font- weight:bold; line-height: 122%;margin: 10px
                  > 0px;}
                  > #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                  > margin-bottom: 10px;}
                  > #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                  > padding:0 0;}
                  > #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                  > color:#0000ff; text-decoration: none;}
                  > -->
                  >
                  > <!--
                  >
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                  > font-family: Arial;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                  > margin:10px 0px;font-weight: bold;font- size:78%; line-height: 122%;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                  > margin-bottom: 10px;padding: 0 0;}
                  > -->
                  >
                  > <!--
                  >
                  > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial, helvetica, clean,
                  > sans-serif;}
                  > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit; font:100% ;}
                  > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean,
                  > sans-serif;}
                  > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                  > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height: 1.22em;}
                  > #ygrp-text{
                  > font-family: Georgia;
                  > }
                  > #ygrp-text p{
                  > margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                  > #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                  > font-family: Arial;
                  > clear:both;}
                  > #ygrp-vitnav{
                  > padding-top: 10px;font- family:Verdana; font-size: 77%;margin: 0;}
                  > #ygrp-vitnav a{
                  > padding:0 1px;}
                  > #ygrp-actbar{
                  > clear:both;margin: 25px 0;white-space: nowrap;color: #666;text- align:right; }
                  > #ygrp-actbar .left{
                  > float:left;white- space:nowrap; }
                  > .bld{font-weight: bold;}
                  > #ygrp-grft{
                  > font-family: Verdana;font- size:77%; padding:15px 0;}
                  > #ygrp-ft{
                  > font-family: verdana;font- size:77%; border-top: 1px solid #666;
                  > padding:5px 0;
                  > }
                  > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                  > padding-bottom: 10px;}
                  >
                  > #ygrp-vital{
                  > background-color: #e0ecee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                  > #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                  >
                  > font-size:77% ;font-family: Verdana;font- weight:bold; color:#333; text-transform: uppercase; }
                  > #ygrp-vital ul{
                  > padding:0;margin: 2px 0;}
                  > #ygrp-vital ul li{
                  > list-style-type: none;clear: both;border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
                  > }
                  > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                  >
                  > font-weight: bold;color: #ff7900;float: right;width: 2em;text- align:right; padding-right: .5em;}
                  > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                  > font-weight: bold;}
                  > #ygrp-vital a{
                  > text-decoration: none;}
                  >
                  > #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                  > text-decoration: underline; }
                  >
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                  > color:#999;font- size:77%; }
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                  > padding:6px 13px;background- color:#e0ecee; margin-bottom: 20px;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                  > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0; }
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                  > list-style-type: square;padding: 6px 0;font-size: 77%;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                  > text-decoration: none;font- size:130% ;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                  > background-color: #eee;margin- bottom:20px; padding:0 8px;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                  > padding:8px 0;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                  >
                  > font-family: Arial;font- weight:bold; color:#628c2a; font-size: 100%;line- height:122% ;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                  > text-decoration: none;}
                  > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                  > text-decoration: underline; }
                  > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                  > margin:0;}
                  > o{font-size: 0;}
                  > .MsoNormal{
                  > margin:0 0 0 0;}
                  > #ygrp-text tt{
                  > font-size:120% ;}
                  > blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
                  > .replbq{margin: 4;}
                  > -->
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                  > http://tools. search.yahoo. com/newsearch/ category. php?category= shopping
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  <!--

                  #ygrp-mkp{
                  border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:14px 0px;padding:0px 14px;}
                  #ygrp-mkp hr{
                  border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}
                  #ygrp-mkp #hd{
                  color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:bold;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0px;}
                  #ygrp-mkp #ads{
                  margin-bottom:10px;}
                  #ygrp-mkp .ad{
                  padding:0 0;}
                  #ygrp-mkp .ad a{
                  color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
                  -->

                  <!--

                  #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
                  font-family:Arial;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
                  margin:10px 0px;font-weight:bold;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
                  margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}
                  -->

                  <!--

                  #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                  #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
                  #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}
                  #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
                  #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
                  #ygrp-text{
                  font-family:Georgia;
                  }
                  #ygrp-text p{
                  margin:0 0 1em 0;}
                  #ygrp-tpmsgs{
                  font-family:Arial;
                  clear:both;}
                  #ygrp-vitnav{
                  padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
                  #ygrp-vitnav a{
                  padding:0 1px;}
                  #ygrp-actbar{
                  clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-align:right;}
                  #ygrp-actbar .left{
                  float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
                  .bld{font-weight:bold;}
                  #ygrp-grft{
                  font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
                  #ygrp-ft{
                  font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
                  padding:5px 0;
                  }
                  #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
                  padding-bottom:10px;}

                  #ygrp-vital{
                  background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
                  #ygrp-vital #vithd{
                  font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-transform:uppercase;}
                  #ygrp-vital ul{
                  padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
                  #ygrp-vital ul li{
                  list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
                  }
                  #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
                  font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
                  #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
                  font-weight:bold;}
                  #ygrp-vital a{
                  text-decoration:none;}

                  #ygrp-vital a:hover{
                  text-decoration:underline;}

                  #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
                  color:#999;font-size:77%;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
                  padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
                  padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
                  list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
                  text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor #nc{
                  background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
                  padding:8px 0;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
                  font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-size:100%;line-height:122%;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
                  text-decoration:none;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
                  text-decoration:underline;}
                  #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
                  margin:0;}
                  o{font-size:0;}
                  .MsoNormal{
                  margin:0 0 0 0;}
                  #ygrp-text tt{
                  font-size:120%;}
                  blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
                  .replbq{margin:4;}
                  -->






                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • joseph
                  Dear friends it s funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha. when insight
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 3 8:44 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear friends
                    it's funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not
                    only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha.
                    when insight arises there would still be no better way of
                    explanation to be found than it is in the words of the Blessed one.
                    and only on enlightenment, really, do the meaning of words shine
                    forth as perfect and clear.
                    their meaning is simple, but reality is complex, the Dhamma is
                    wonderous indeed.
                    in this case, though, I do not mean to boast, these are simply
                    familiar life situations:

                    the story, here too, is quite simple.
                    in a situation where the Dhamma had been badly expounded by a monk,
                    the listener lay supporter, will have, though his willingness to
                    support the monk, a better insight to what should be the limited
                    extent this monk should be treated.
                    while in the case of a monk who can truly see into the teachings,
                    he will himself be able to comprehend the situation, the value of
                    the Dhamma and the opportunity giving may allow for the listener,
                    who is, as most often is the case, of a lesser insight.

                    Metta
                    Jothiko







                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Nina,
                    > Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't
                    seem to
                    > fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
                    > interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                    > have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                    > according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about
                    the
                    > measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                    > doing so.
                    > What do you think?
                    > With metta,
                    > John
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Branislav and John,
                    > > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
                    > > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he
                    has
                    > > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented
                    if he
                    > > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
                    > > necessary.>
                    > > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving.
                    Someone
                    > > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others
                    to
                    > > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is
                    worthy
                    > > is contented, also when they give not.
                    > > Nina.
                    > >
                    > > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
                    > > geschreven:
                    > >
                    > > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline,
                    the
                    > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
                    recipient.
                    > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
                    Dhamma.
                    > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                    > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
                    giver.
                    > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
                    Dhamma.
                    > > >
                    > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                    > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                    > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu?
                    Durakkhaatattaa,
                    > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                    > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena
                    mattaa
                    > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                    > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                  • joseph
                    Dear friends While I agree with the general idea, The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the hindrance to the achievment of liberation.
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 3 9:02 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear friends
                      While I agree with the general idea,
                      The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the
                      hindrance to the achievment of liberation.

                      Nibbana is actually not equanimity, and it is nothing less of
                      Nibbana that should be aspired for.
                      it is the release of any desire, even that to abandon suffering.
                      Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                      brain space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words
                      in the most conventional way.
                      so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if you look at the
                      definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not pessimistic or
                      nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                      the presence of wisdom is the reason, the support, the truth of
                      Nibbana, and by that, any of these adverbs is rendered inadaquate.

                      if it does not seem to make sense, remember that it is anna:
                      of a different wisdom, a different kind of consciousness.

                      Metta
                      Jothiko




                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Leo,
                      >
                      > No, quite definitely the first noble truth cannot be interpreted
                      > simply as "life has suffering". This would clearly be just a
                      > watering-down of what the Buddha is actually saying.
                      >
                      > From the Buddha's first discourse (Dhammacakkhappavattana Sutta)
                      we have:
                      > "Ida.m kho pana bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m: Jaati’pi
                      dukkhaa,
                      > jaraa’pi dukkhaa, vyaadhi’pi dukkho, mara.nampi dukkha.m.
                      Appiyehi
                      > sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho. Yampiccha.m na labhati
                      > tampi dukkha.m. Sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa."
                      > "Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
                      > suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is
                      > suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation
                      > from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is
                      > suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are
                      > suffering."
                      >
                      > The Buddha is not at all denying that there is happiness in life -
                      > there is plenty - but it is essentially the fact that we cling to
                      > whatever is pleasant that brings us suffering, because all is
                      > impermanent. The Buddha exhorts us to develop equanimity with
                      whatever
                      > is pleasant or unpleasant. Then a byproduct is that our
                      happinesses
                      > will be greater, since we will just be in the present with them,
                      and
                      > not consciously or subconsciously creating suffering for ourselves
                      by
                      > clinging to that happiness and wanting it to last. Similarly our
                      > pains in life will be lessened, because with equanimity again we
                      > simply stay in the present with them and we eliminate all the
                      mental
                      > proliferation of thinking about our pain that intensifies our
                      > suffering. Of course, this is all much easier said than done -
                      because
                      > of the roots of greed, aversion, and delusion that are within us.
                      But
                      > that's what the Buddhist practice is all about.
                      >
                      > I hope this is a little helpful.
                      >
                      > With metta,
                      > John
                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leoaive@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi
                      > >
                      > > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth.
                      > > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is
                      suffereing.
                      > > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different
                      happiness
                      > > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble
                      Truth
                      > > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all
                      suffering)
                      > > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be
                      translated
                      > > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language.
                      > >
                      > > With Metta
                      > >
                      > > Leo
                      > >
                      >
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Bhante, your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar analysis to
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 6 7:49 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Bhante,

                        your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                        word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                        analysis to sukha? Thanks.


                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.

                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:

                        Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual brain
                        space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                        most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if
                        you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                        pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                      • Gunnar Gällmo
                        Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 6 10:45 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version
                          of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the
                          Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                          http://www.palikanon.com/khuddaka/sn , but now I get a
                          message that "Looks like the page you're looking for
                          was moved or never existed". It did exist, so where
                          has it moved?

                          Gunnar


                          http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto


                          __________________________________________________________
                          Låna pengar utan säkerhet. Jämför vilkor online hos Yahoo!
                          http://shopping.yahoo.se/c-100390123-lan-utan-sakerhet.html?partnerId=96915014
                        • joseph
                          Dear Friends Specifically Kha is related to `one s environment (probably K.R.Norman),One s space . Maybe even relates to `Aura .the physical energy that
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 7 8:12 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Friends
                            Specifically Kha is related to `one's environment'(probably
                            K.R.Norman),One's space'. Maybe even relates to `Aura'.the physical
                            energy that surrounds the body.
                            While, funny enough. This is a reference to the mind, the may we
                            say, `non Physical brain'
                            Mana' the ignorant man constant thinking is by Comparing
                            himself with others, asmi mana is conceit and maana is measuring.
                            Du Manasa relates specifically to depression, which is only one facet
                            of Dhuka.

                            probably even NamaRupa may relate to the reality that is experienced
                            as Mind and Brain, since the body, and Physical reality, is truly the
                            experience related to the Physical brain, only by extention, we
                            think, or there is in this conditioned view of the body.
                            This is per se, when the Buddha says `There is a body' Atthi Kayo.
                            We are faced with a reality, undeniable experience.
                            So this is again an example of the Indian mind set. And the vital
                            necessity to see the
                            Circumstances of the lessons, much in the way a Sutta lesson, should
                            be seen at it's context, the wider, and the specific one.

                            any way I like to think about the logical way this highly idiomatic
                            language forms.
                            Based on simple, logical conventions of speech and common
                            understanding,
                            Often the Pali translation is difficult not only in grammatical
                            terms but possibly in deeper rooted convictions, maybe it boils down
                            too, eventually to our view of a `self',

                            It's a little beside the point, and may look pretentious and high,
                            but there this example Of the quantum mechanics Theory
                            Quantum mechanics taught us that there is no objective point of view,
                            no observer that is outside the system, it is, I think, easy to see
                            the Buddhist relevance of it, as the
                            `not self' characteristic of existence. Anatta.

                            Consciousness is a biological necessity and responds accordingly,
                            with the necessary self deceit and profit seeking.
                            No truth but seeing this very process.

                            The meaning of Nibbana is just this `stopping of the game', resting
                            from the universal laws of desire, hatred and delusion which push us
                            to participate in the formation of further actions, preparations and
                            intentions Sankhara.
                            This process-game' is based on our ignorance to the fact that there
                            is no entity, point of view, absolute reality which is `Me'

                            Our binding action starts by desire, longing, which, because of
                            ignorance make us believe in the possibility of real satisfaction,
                            real realization in this world or beyond it, as religious
                            gratification.

                            Now this is a dangerous point and must it be understood that there is
                            no place for nihilism, destructive psychological tendencies and so
                            on, it is simply often beyond our capacity to face the void, the
                            emotional emptiness which is the basic nature of reality, existence,
                            the world.
                            so we often run, with the encouragement of an ego mental protection,
                            in to illusion, a religion , taking side on order to belong..

                            materialism too is making for a philosophy, a belief, even the
                            Atheist.
                            attachment to logic, a view of a future hope of success.
                            science, though taking the quantum opportuinity per se, is not
                            manifesting a belief in the passive freedom that is opened up, it
                            cannot function that way, it remains the tool of progress and greed.

                            This is not bad; it's actually a social reality.
                            But truth can be experienced and realized, it may need training, as
                            it rises only at the space that is created by inner quietude,
                            serenity, peacefulness.
                            I think the use of the word `space' is most satisfactory.

                            Su Kha is happiness, mental exhilaration that contains physical or
                            mental feeling.
                            Both can be experienced as a bodily experience.
                            But the duality su/du
                            may also relate to `the bad path' the un wholesome way which stands
                            in relation to the Eight fold path (see M.N. 117).
                            While here the idea of Samma is crucial.

                            Nibbana, by reality and definition, is `the cessation of the causes
                            of the bad' The simple denial of the cause, not `happy or `sad'.

                            It relates to a mind attitude, feeling, reality circumstances and
                            above all, to rebirth, re enactment of existence in illusion, life.

                            Equanimity is quite close, but it lacks the Quantum! leap of the
                            light which has a quality of Metta, the active avoidance of
                            attachment, which , in relation to a 'self' is 'other' Anna.

                            `Since Nibbana exists, the way to develop it is the only wisdom'.
                            Hence Buddhism,
                            but simply, understanding this Can be, must be, implemented as part
                            of any world view,
                            it's easy to see the case above as relating to one worldly way, but
                            religion, even in a
                            clearer fashion should be a base for the Dhamma.
                            the Buddha himself has accepted the old Indian gods.
                            the Tibetans , too, has Idam, a personal god, a protector of the
                            search for the Dhamma.
                            .Sri lankan have gods to refer to when trouble (the chief one is
                            Kataragama, the residence, the name of the town here)
                            The Jewish Shekhina' is similar, I think it is presence', or the
                            Indian concept of Shakti, the power, presence, manifestation, female
                            side of the various gods.
                            This is advanced theology, too much actually.
                            It may be any chosen god of belief, why not?

                            But a belief that negates the quantum is a wrong view which lead to
                            suffering…
                            No god is this eternal point, the causeless cause, whatever the
                            religious imaginations like to make of their traditional, past based
                            yearnings.

                            Now there is the presence of the path, that means the right way.
                            The preliminary thought may be connected to belief, faith, which is a
                            good place to start, but not necessarily, not, as we show, as a
                            matter of taking sides, but a personal,
                            Lonely often, experience of the consequences of truth,

                            Sorry, I was writing a sermon when I saw the letter, so it all came
                            out like that..
                            I meant to elaborate more about the linguistic aspect, as you see,
                            amateurism may sometimes be an advantage.

                            I also find, in order to fully engulf some unnecessary conventions,
                            it may be helpful to
                            See some ideas of later Buddhist schools, and even of the Indian
                            sphere.

                            Metta
                            Jothiko


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Bhante,
                            >
                            > your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                            > word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                            > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                            >
                            >
                            > metta,
                            > Yong Peng.
                            >
                            > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:
                            >
                            > Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                            brain
                            > space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                            > most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble,
                            if
                            > you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                            > pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                            >
                          • joseph
                            ... can we apply similar ... Dear friends Su = good, positive Kha = space, presence. the idiom of positive space can be seen as three fold: amisa sukha -
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 9 6:22 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                              >
                              can we apply similar
                              > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                              >
                              Dear friends
                              Su = good, positive
                              Kha = space, presence.
                              the idiom of 'positive space' can be seen as three fold:

                              amisa sukha - physical-emotional bliss, an ingredient of the first
                              jhana, where body and bliss are, like a sponge 'fully saturated with
                              water'.

                              niramisa sukha - mental emotional happiness, of the third jhana,
                              where equanimity which is 'inspection from a high point', gives the
                              image of lotus flowers of various colors, fully immersed in water.

                              sukha = satisfaction, finding fulfilment.
                              hence 'kama sukalika' = satisfaction with the sphere of the senses.
                              'sukha vipasana' = satisfaction with the thoughtful inquiry.
                              (the dry aspect is also in relation to the duality, the mnaturity of
                              the wood that can be burned
                              'nibbana paramam sukham = cessation is the satisfaction of
                              (attaining)the beyond'.

                              The MahaArahat Venerable Sariputta explains that Nibbana is happiness
                              exactly because it is devoid of feelings.

                              Metta
                              Jothiko
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.