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Re: AN I.314-315

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear Branko and friends, while we are on this topic of locative absolutes, I like to raise that in Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 1, 2008
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      Dear Branko and friends,

      while we are on this topic of locative absolutes, I like to raise that
      in "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa jaanitabbaa,
      no pa.tiggaahakena.", "durakkhaate dhammavinaye" is a locative
      absolute clause.

      In the classroom, the student typically would translate the clause as
      "when the dhammavinaya is poorly preached", in order to demonstrate
      his mastery of the grammar.

      I hope this clarifies any doubt on locative absolutes.

      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

      With the dhammavinaya poorly preached, (it is taught) the "measure of
      gift" should be known by the giver, not the recipient.

      > 7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
      jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena.
      > badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
      moderation / should be known / not / recipient
      > "(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
      giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.
    • Branislav Kovacevic
      Dear Yong Peng, of course it s not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I m pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage.
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
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        Dear Yong Peng,

        of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.

        In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:

        333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
        334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...

        aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?

        I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
        "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
        liberation from the cycle."
        but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these expressions.

        Many thanks,
        Branko


        Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,

        Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
        me, since a reference was made about my postings.

        The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
        would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
        recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.






        ---------------------------------
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      • John Kelly
        Dear Branko, I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence: Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
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          Dear Branko,

          I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
          Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
          karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
          evameva.n = so too
          kho = indeed
          bhikkhave = bhikkhus
          appakaa = few
          te = those
          sattaa beings
          ye = which
          vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
          vavassagga = relinquishment
          aramma.na.m = support, basis
          karitvaa = having made/done
          labhanti = they gain
          samadhi.m =concentration

          "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
          taken relinquishment as its support ..."

          With metta,
          John
          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Yong Peng,
          >
          > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
          extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
          passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
          wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
          >
          > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
          vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
          figure out:
          >
          > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
          vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
          > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
          annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
          >
          > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
          >
          > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
          For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
          > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
          > liberation from the cycle."
          > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
          these expressions.
          >
          > Many thanks,
          > Branko
          >
        • Branislav Kovacevic
          Dear John, many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage. Let it bring you much happiness. Metta, Branko John Kelly wrote:
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
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            Dear John,

            many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
            Let it bring you much happiness.

            Metta,
            Branko



            John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Branko,

            I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
            Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
            karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
            evameva.n = so too
            kho = indeed
            bhikkhave = bhikkhus
            appakaa = few
            te = those
            sattaa beings
            ye = which
            vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
            vavassagga = relinquishment
            aramma.na.m = support, basis
            karitvaa = having made/done
            labhanti = they gain
            samadhi.m =concentration

            "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
            taken relinquishment as its support ..."

            With metta,
            John
            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Yong Peng,
            >
            > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
            extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
            passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
            wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
            >
            > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
            vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
            figure out:
            >
            > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
            vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
            > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
            annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
            >
            > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
            >
            > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
            For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
            > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
            > liberation from the cycle."
            > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
            these expressions.
            >
            > Many thanks,
            > Branko
            >






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          • johnny pruitt
            Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
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              Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu
              It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.

              Johnny

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

              Dear Yong Peng,

              of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.

              In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:

              333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
              334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m laabhino...

              aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?

              I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
              "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
              liberation from the cycle."
              but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these expressions.

              Many thanks,
              Branko

              Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,

              Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
              me, since a reference was made about my postings.

              The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
              would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
              recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.

              ------------ --------- --------- ---
              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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            • Mahinda Palihawadana
              Dear Johnny, This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement. How would it read, if you translate it back into English? Mahipaliha ...
              Message 6 of 27 , Mar 7, 2008
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                Dear Johnny,

                This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
                How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

                Mahipaliha


                On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@...> wrote:
                >
                > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga.no/> bhava.m attu
                > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
                > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
                > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
                > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
                > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
                >
                > Johnny
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...<ja_sam_branko%40yahoo.com>
                > >
                > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
                >
                > Dear Yong Peng,
                >
                > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
                > I've added a footnote for the reader.
                >
                > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
                > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
                >
                > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
                > samadhi.m...
                > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
                > laabhino...
                >
                > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                >
                > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
                > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                > liberation from the cycle."
                > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
                > expressions.
                >
                > Many thanks,
                > Branko
                >
                > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
                >
                > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
                >
                > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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              • mahipaliha
                Dear friends, I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed. i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only today that I
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 10, 2008
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                  Dear friends,
                  I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed.
                  i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only
                  today that I got a copy from a friend. This is what it says: In a
                  well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
                  the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
                  They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
                  much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
                  donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
                  given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
                  go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
                  physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
                  also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
                  good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
                  religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
                  measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
                  Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).

                  I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
                  time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
                  organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
                  that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
                  don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.

                  Mahipaliha

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Dear John,
                  >
                  > many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
                  > Let it bring you much happiness.
                  >
                  > Metta,
                  > Branko
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
                  Dear Branko,
                  >
                  > I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the
                  sentence:
                  > Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                  vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                  > karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                  > evameva.n = so too
                  > kho = indeed
                  > bhikkhave = bhikkhus
                  > appakaa = few
                  > te = those
                  > sattaa beings
                  > ye = which
                  > vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa
                  compound)
                  > vavassagga = relinquishment
                  > aramma.na.m = support, basis
                  > karitvaa = having made/done
                  > labhanti = they gain
                  > samadhi.m =concentration
                  >
                  > "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration
                  having
                  > taken relinquishment as its support ..."
                  >
                  > With metta,
                  > John
                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear Yong Peng,
                  > >
                  > > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                  > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of
                  that
                  > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
                  > wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
                  > >
                  > > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the
                  fourth
                  > vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I
                  can't
                  > figure out:
                  > >
                  > > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                  > vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                  > > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                  > annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
                  > >
                  > > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                  > >
                  > > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a
                  problem.
                  > For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                  > > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to
                  attain
                  > > liberation from the cycle."
                  > > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
                  > these expressions.
                  > >
                  > > Many thanks,
                  > > Branko
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Mahipaliha, ... N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem, of
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 11, 2008
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                    Dear Mahipaliha,

                    Op 11-mrt-2008, om 0:57 heeft mahipaliha het volgende geschreven:

                    > In a
                    > well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
                    > the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
                    > They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
                    > much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
                    > donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
                    > given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
                    > go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
                    > physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
                    > also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
                    > good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
                    > religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
                    > measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
                    > Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).
                    >
                    > I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
                    > time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
                    > organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
                    > that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
                    > don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.
                    -------
                    N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being
                    contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem,
                    of having to think of what is not original.
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • johnny pruitt
                    well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct. ...
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 14, 2008
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                      well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct.

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, March 7, 2008 5:39:54 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

                      Dear Johnny,

                      This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
                      How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

                      Mahipaliha

                      On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      >
                      > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga. no/> bhava.m attu
                      > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
                      > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
                      > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
                      > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
                      > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
                      >
                      > Johnny
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@ yahoo.com<ja_sam_branko% 40yahoo.com>
                      > >
                      > To: Pali@yahoogroups. com <Pali%40yahoogroups .com>
                      > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
                      >
                      > Dear Yong Peng,
                      >
                      > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                      > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                      > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
                      > I've added a footnote for the reader.
                      >
                      > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
                      > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
                      >
                      > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
                      > samadhi.m...
                      > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
                      > laabhino...
                      >
                      > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                      >
                      > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
                      > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                      > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                      > liberation from the cycle."
                      > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
                      > expressions.
                      >
                      > Many thanks,
                      > Branko
                      >
                      > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@ gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
                      >
                      > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                      > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
                      >
                      > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                      > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                      > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
                      >
                      > ------------ --------- --------- ---
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                    • joseph
                      Dear friends it s funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha. when insight
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 3, 2008
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                        Dear friends
                        it's funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not
                        only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha.
                        when insight arises there would still be no better way of
                        explanation to be found than it is in the words of the Blessed one.
                        and only on enlightenment, really, do the meaning of words shine
                        forth as perfect and clear.
                        their meaning is simple, but reality is complex, the Dhamma is
                        wonderous indeed.
                        in this case, though, I do not mean to boast, these are simply
                        familiar life situations:

                        the story, here too, is quite simple.
                        in a situation where the Dhamma had been badly expounded by a monk,
                        the listener lay supporter, will have, though his willingness to
                        support the monk, a better insight to what should be the limited
                        extent this monk should be treated.
                        while in the case of a monk who can truly see into the teachings,
                        he will himself be able to comprehend the situation, the value of
                        the Dhamma and the opportunity giving may allow for the listener,
                        who is, as most often is the case, of a lesser insight.

                        Metta
                        Jothiko







                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Nina,
                        > Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't
                        seem to
                        > fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
                        > interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                        > have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                        > according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about
                        the
                        > measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                        > doing so.
                        > What do you think?
                        > With metta,
                        > John
                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear Branislav and John,
                        > > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
                        > > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he
                        has
                        > > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented
                        if he
                        > > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
                        > > necessary.>
                        > > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving.
                        Someone
                        > > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others
                        to
                        > > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is
                        worthy
                        > > is contented, also when they give not.
                        > > Nina.
                        > >
                        > > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
                        > > geschreven:
                        > >
                        > > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline,
                        the
                        > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
                        recipient.
                        > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
                        Dhamma.
                        > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                        > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
                        giver.
                        > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
                        Dhamma.
                        > > >
                        > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                        > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                        > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu?
                        Durakkhaatattaa,
                        > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                        > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena
                        mattaa
                        > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                        > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                      • joseph
                        Dear friends While I agree with the general idea, The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the hindrance to the achievment of liberation.
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 3, 2008
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                          Dear friends
                          While I agree with the general idea,
                          The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the
                          hindrance to the achievment of liberation.

                          Nibbana is actually not equanimity, and it is nothing less of
                          Nibbana that should be aspired for.
                          it is the release of any desire, even that to abandon suffering.
                          Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                          brain space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words
                          in the most conventional way.
                          so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if you look at the
                          definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not pessimistic or
                          nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                          the presence of wisdom is the reason, the support, the truth of
                          Nibbana, and by that, any of these adverbs is rendered inadaquate.

                          if it does not seem to make sense, remember that it is anna:
                          of a different wisdom, a different kind of consciousness.

                          Metta
                          Jothiko




                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Leo,
                          >
                          > No, quite definitely the first noble truth cannot be interpreted
                          > simply as "life has suffering". This would clearly be just a
                          > watering-down of what the Buddha is actually saying.
                          >
                          > From the Buddha's first discourse (Dhammacakkhappavattana Sutta)
                          we have:
                          > "Ida.m kho pana bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m: Jaati’pi
                          dukkhaa,
                          > jaraa’pi dukkhaa, vyaadhi’pi dukkho, mara.nampi dukkha.m.
                          Appiyehi
                          > sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho. Yampiccha.m na labhati
                          > tampi dukkha.m. Sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa."
                          > "Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
                          > suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is
                          > suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation
                          > from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is
                          > suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are
                          > suffering."
                          >
                          > The Buddha is not at all denying that there is happiness in life -
                          > there is plenty - but it is essentially the fact that we cling to
                          > whatever is pleasant that brings us suffering, because all is
                          > impermanent. The Buddha exhorts us to develop equanimity with
                          whatever
                          > is pleasant or unpleasant. Then a byproduct is that our
                          happinesses
                          > will be greater, since we will just be in the present with them,
                          and
                          > not consciously or subconsciously creating suffering for ourselves
                          by
                          > clinging to that happiness and wanting it to last. Similarly our
                          > pains in life will be lessened, because with equanimity again we
                          > simply stay in the present with them and we eliminate all the
                          mental
                          > proliferation of thinking about our pain that intensifies our
                          > suffering. Of course, this is all much easier said than done -
                          because
                          > of the roots of greed, aversion, and delusion that are within us.
                          But
                          > that's what the Buddhist practice is all about.
                          >
                          > I hope this is a little helpful.
                          >
                          > With metta,
                          > John
                          > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leoaive@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi
                          > >
                          > > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth.
                          > > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is
                          suffereing.
                          > > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different
                          happiness
                          > > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble
                          Truth
                          > > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all
                          suffering)
                          > > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be
                          translated
                          > > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language.
                          > >
                          > > With Metta
                          > >
                          > > Leo
                          > >
                          >
                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Bhante, your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar analysis to
                          Message 12 of 27 , May 6, 2008
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                            Bhante,

                            your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                            word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                            analysis to sukha? Thanks.


                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.

                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:

                            Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual brain
                            space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                            most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if
                            you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                            pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                          • Gunnar Gällmo
                            Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                            Message 13 of 27 , May 6, 2008
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                              Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version
                              of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the
                              Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                              http://www.palikanon.com/khuddaka/sn , but now I get a
                              message that "Looks like the page you're looking for
                              was moved or never existed". It did exist, so where
                              has it moved?

                              Gunnar


                              http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto


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                            • joseph
                              Dear Friends Specifically Kha is related to `one s environment (probably K.R.Norman),One s space . Maybe even relates to `Aura .the physical energy that
                              Message 14 of 27 , May 7, 2008
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                                Dear Friends
                                Specifically Kha is related to `one's environment'(probably
                                K.R.Norman),One's space'. Maybe even relates to `Aura'.the physical
                                energy that surrounds the body.
                                While, funny enough. This is a reference to the mind, the may we
                                say, `non Physical brain'
                                Mana' the ignorant man constant thinking is by Comparing
                                himself with others, asmi mana is conceit and maana is measuring.
                                Du Manasa relates specifically to depression, which is only one facet
                                of Dhuka.

                                probably even NamaRupa may relate to the reality that is experienced
                                as Mind and Brain, since the body, and Physical reality, is truly the
                                experience related to the Physical brain, only by extention, we
                                think, or there is in this conditioned view of the body.
                                This is per se, when the Buddha says `There is a body' Atthi Kayo.
                                We are faced with a reality, undeniable experience.
                                So this is again an example of the Indian mind set. And the vital
                                necessity to see the
                                Circumstances of the lessons, much in the way a Sutta lesson, should
                                be seen at it's context, the wider, and the specific one.

                                any way I like to think about the logical way this highly idiomatic
                                language forms.
                                Based on simple, logical conventions of speech and common
                                understanding,
                                Often the Pali translation is difficult not only in grammatical
                                terms but possibly in deeper rooted convictions, maybe it boils down
                                too, eventually to our view of a `self',

                                It's a little beside the point, and may look pretentious and high,
                                but there this example Of the quantum mechanics Theory
                                Quantum mechanics taught us that there is no objective point of view,
                                no observer that is outside the system, it is, I think, easy to see
                                the Buddhist relevance of it, as the
                                `not self' characteristic of existence. Anatta.

                                Consciousness is a biological necessity and responds accordingly,
                                with the necessary self deceit and profit seeking.
                                No truth but seeing this very process.

                                The meaning of Nibbana is just this `stopping of the game', resting
                                from the universal laws of desire, hatred and delusion which push us
                                to participate in the formation of further actions, preparations and
                                intentions Sankhara.
                                This process-game' is based on our ignorance to the fact that there
                                is no entity, point of view, absolute reality which is `Me'

                                Our binding action starts by desire, longing, which, because of
                                ignorance make us believe in the possibility of real satisfaction,
                                real realization in this world or beyond it, as religious
                                gratification.

                                Now this is a dangerous point and must it be understood that there is
                                no place for nihilism, destructive psychological tendencies and so
                                on, it is simply often beyond our capacity to face the void, the
                                emotional emptiness which is the basic nature of reality, existence,
                                the world.
                                so we often run, with the encouragement of an ego mental protection,
                                in to illusion, a religion , taking side on order to belong..

                                materialism too is making for a philosophy, a belief, even the
                                Atheist.
                                attachment to logic, a view of a future hope of success.
                                science, though taking the quantum opportuinity per se, is not
                                manifesting a belief in the passive freedom that is opened up, it
                                cannot function that way, it remains the tool of progress and greed.

                                This is not bad; it's actually a social reality.
                                But truth can be experienced and realized, it may need training, as
                                it rises only at the space that is created by inner quietude,
                                serenity, peacefulness.
                                I think the use of the word `space' is most satisfactory.

                                Su Kha is happiness, mental exhilaration that contains physical or
                                mental feeling.
                                Both can be experienced as a bodily experience.
                                But the duality su/du
                                may also relate to `the bad path' the un wholesome way which stands
                                in relation to the Eight fold path (see M.N. 117).
                                While here the idea of Samma is crucial.

                                Nibbana, by reality and definition, is `the cessation of the causes
                                of the bad' The simple denial of the cause, not `happy or `sad'.

                                It relates to a mind attitude, feeling, reality circumstances and
                                above all, to rebirth, re enactment of existence in illusion, life.

                                Equanimity is quite close, but it lacks the Quantum! leap of the
                                light which has a quality of Metta, the active avoidance of
                                attachment, which , in relation to a 'self' is 'other' Anna.

                                `Since Nibbana exists, the way to develop it is the only wisdom'.
                                Hence Buddhism,
                                but simply, understanding this Can be, must be, implemented as part
                                of any world view,
                                it's easy to see the case above as relating to one worldly way, but
                                religion, even in a
                                clearer fashion should be a base for the Dhamma.
                                the Buddha himself has accepted the old Indian gods.
                                the Tibetans , too, has Idam, a personal god, a protector of the
                                search for the Dhamma.
                                .Sri lankan have gods to refer to when trouble (the chief one is
                                Kataragama, the residence, the name of the town here)
                                The Jewish Shekhina' is similar, I think it is presence', or the
                                Indian concept of Shakti, the power, presence, manifestation, female
                                side of the various gods.
                                This is advanced theology, too much actually.
                                It may be any chosen god of belief, why not?

                                But a belief that negates the quantum is a wrong view which lead to
                                suffering…
                                No god is this eternal point, the causeless cause, whatever the
                                religious imaginations like to make of their traditional, past based
                                yearnings.

                                Now there is the presence of the path, that means the right way.
                                The preliminary thought may be connected to belief, faith, which is a
                                good place to start, but not necessarily, not, as we show, as a
                                matter of taking sides, but a personal,
                                Lonely often, experience of the consequences of truth,

                                Sorry, I was writing a sermon when I saw the letter, so it all came
                                out like that..
                                I meant to elaborate more about the linguistic aspect, as you see,
                                amateurism may sometimes be an advantage.

                                I also find, in order to fully engulf some unnecessary conventions,
                                it may be helpful to
                                See some ideas of later Buddhist schools, and even of the Indian
                                sphere.

                                Metta
                                Jothiko


                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Bhante,
                                >
                                > your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                                > word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                                > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                                >
                                >
                                > metta,
                                > Yong Peng.
                                >
                                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:
                                >
                                > Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                                brain
                                > space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                                > most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble,
                                if
                                > you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                                > pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                                >
                              • joseph
                                ... can we apply similar ... Dear friends Su = good, positive Kha = space, presence. the idiom of positive space can be seen as three fold: amisa sukha -
                                Message 15 of 27 , May 9, 2008
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                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  can we apply similar
                                  > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                                  >
                                  Dear friends
                                  Su = good, positive
                                  Kha = space, presence.
                                  the idiom of 'positive space' can be seen as three fold:

                                  amisa sukha - physical-emotional bliss, an ingredient of the first
                                  jhana, where body and bliss are, like a sponge 'fully saturated with
                                  water'.

                                  niramisa sukha - mental emotional happiness, of the third jhana,
                                  where equanimity which is 'inspection from a high point', gives the
                                  image of lotus flowers of various colors, fully immersed in water.

                                  sukha = satisfaction, finding fulfilment.
                                  hence 'kama sukalika' = satisfaction with the sphere of the senses.
                                  'sukha vipasana' = satisfaction with the thoughtful inquiry.
                                  (the dry aspect is also in relation to the duality, the mnaturity of
                                  the wood that can be burned
                                  'nibbana paramam sukham = cessation is the satisfaction of
                                  (attaining)the beyond'.

                                  The MahaArahat Venerable Sariputta explains that Nibbana is happiness
                                  exactly because it is devoid of feelings.

                                  Metta
                                  Jothiko
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