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Sakka's lifespan

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  • johan wijaya
    Dear all, Could anyone kindly let me know about whether or not the translation of PTS for the lifespan of Sakka is correct. In CSCD, Jat. II [310] it s written
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 28, 2008
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      Dear all,

      Could anyone kindly let me know about whether or not the translation of PTS for the lifespan of Sakka is correct.

      In CSCD, Jat. II [310] it's written as follows:
      sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati.
      By PTS, it's translated:
      Sakka had lived for sixty times an hundred thousand years and thirty millions of years, then was born on earth again.

      sixty times an hundred thousand years = 6.000.000 years?
      thirty millions of years = 30.000.000 years?
      so overall, 6.000.000+30.000.000 = 36.000.000 years, am i right?

      while in Dictionary of Pali Proper Name (DPPN), under the explanation of Mandhaataa, it's mentioned as "thirty-six million years and sixty times one hundred thousand", so it makes 36.000.000+6.000.000 = 42.000.000 years.

      While in Pali-English dictionary, the word ko.ti is defined as up to a hundred thousand (in number), so if we refer back to the PTS translation, it should be 6.000.000 + 3.000.000 (not 30.000.000) = 9.000.000 years, am i right?


      We need this information as we are doing the translation, so please, please, please, anyone who wants to give any comment or knows any accurate information related to this, please share it with me, will you?

      Thanks in advance.




      With Metta,
      Jo.


      ---------------------------------

      Real people. Real questions. Real answers. Share what you know.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jon Fernquest
      ...the lifespan of Sakka... Regarding Sakka see the book Early Buddhist Mythology by J.R. Haldar, Manohar, 1977. Pages 82 to 95 will tell you just about
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 29, 2008
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        "...the lifespan of Sakka..."

        Regarding Sakka see the book "Early Buddhist Mythology" by J.R.
        Haldar, Manohar, 1977.

        Pages 82 to 95 will tell you just about everything you could possibly
        nned know about Sakka citing many Jataka and the Tipitaka. Here is the
        beginning:

        "In Pali literature, the word 'Sakka' is used as a rank or position of
        the king of the Tavatimsa gods and not as a personal name. He who
        comes in the Tavatimsa to rule over it will be called Sakka. As the
        universe consists of many cakkavalas and there is a Tavatimsa-devaloka
        in each cakkavala and each Tavatimsa is ruled by a Sakka, the number
        of Sakkas (i.e. kings of the Tavatimsa devalokas) is many Besides, in
        each cakkavala, we come in contact with many Sakkas within a world
        cycle within a world cycle (i.e. the life..."

        Also see Buddhist Cosmology in Steven Collins, Nirvana and other
        Buddhist Felicities, 1998, pages 297-304.

        With metta,
        Jon Fernquest




        > Dear all,
        >
        > Could anyone kindly let me know about whether or not the translation
        of PTS for the lifespan of Sakka is correct.
        >
        > In CSCD, Jat. II [310] it's written as follows:
        > sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m
        khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati.
        > By PTS, it's translated:
        > Sakka had lived for sixty times an hundred thousand years and thirty
        millions of years, then was born on earth again.
        >
        > sixty times an hundred thousand years = 6.000.000 years?
        > thirty millions of years = 30.000.000 years?
        > so overall, 6.000.000+30.000.000 = 36.000.000 years, am i right?
        >
        > while in Dictionary of Pali Proper Name (DPPN), under the
        explanation of Mandhaataa, it's mentioned as "thirty-six million years
        and sixty times one hundred thousand", so it makes
        36.000.000+6.000.000 = 42.000.000 years.
        >
        > While in Pali-English dictionary, the word ko.ti is defined as up to
        a hundred thousand (in number), so if we refer back to the PTS
        translation, it should be 6.000.000 + 3.000.000 (not 30.000.000) =
        9.000.000 years, am i right?
        >
        >
        > We need this information as we are doing the translation, so please,
        please, please, anyone who wants to give any comment or knows any
        accurate information related to this, please share it with me, will you?
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > With Metta,
        > Jo.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        >
        > Real people. Real questions. Real answers. Share what you know.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • dhamma_joti
        Thanks for the book reference, Jon. I google-searched both reference and could only read one of them via the google book librabry (Nirvana and Other Buddhist
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 1, 2008
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          Thanks for the book reference, Jon.

          I google-searched both reference and could only read one of them via
          the google book librabry (Nirvana and Other Buddhist Felicities). I
          found there that the life in Tavatimsa realms lasts for 36.000.000
          human years...which also indicates that the lifespan of Sakka is
          36.000.000 human years.
          This reference is in English. What I actually want to confirm by
          posting a thread in this Pali yahoogroups is the relevance between the
          English translation and the Pali language. So if there is anyone from
          this group who would be willing to have a look at the Pali
          words/sentences and verify whether or not the English translation
          about Sakka's lifespan(36.000.000 years) is correct, and if possible
          with explanation on the Pali--how it can be 36.000.000 years--.
          Thank you.


          With Metta,
          Jo.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Fernquest" <bayinnaung@...> wrote:
          >
          > "...the lifespan of Sakka..."
          >
          > Regarding Sakka see the book "Early Buddhist Mythology" by J.R.
          > Haldar, Manohar, 1977.
          >
          > Pages 82 to 95 will tell you just about everything you could possibly
          > nned know about Sakka citing many Jataka and the Tipitaka. Here is the
          > beginning:
          >
          > "In Pali literature, the word 'Sakka' is used as a rank or position of
          > the king of the Tavatimsa gods and not as a personal name. He who
          > comes in the Tavatimsa to rule over it will be called Sakka. As the
          > universe consists of many cakkavalas and there is a Tavatimsa-devaloka
          > in each cakkavala and each Tavatimsa is ruled by a Sakka, the number
          > of Sakkas (i.e. kings of the Tavatimsa devalokas) is many Besides, in
          > each cakkavala, we come in contact with many Sakkas within a world
          > cycle within a world cycle (i.e. the life..."
          >
          > Also see Buddhist Cosmology in Steven Collins, Nirvana and other
          > Buddhist Felicities, 1998, pages 297-304.
          >
          > With metta,
          > Jon Fernquest
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > Dear all,
          > >
          > > Could anyone kindly let me know about whether or not the translation
          > of PTS for the lifespan of Sakka is correct.
          > >
          > > In CSCD, Jat. II [310] it's written as follows:
          > > sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m
          > khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati.
          > > By PTS, it's translated:
          > > Sakka had lived for sixty times an hundred thousand years and thirty
          > millions of years, then was born on earth again.
          > >
          > > sixty times an hundred thousand years = 6.000.000 years?
          > > thirty millions of years = 30.000.000 years?
          > > so overall, 6.000.000+30.000.000 = 36.000.000 years, am i right?
          > >
          > > while in Dictionary of Pali Proper Name (DPPN), under the
          > explanation of Mandhaataa, it's mentioned as "thirty-six million years
          > and sixty times one hundred thousand", so it makes
          > 36.000.000+6.000.000 = 42.000.000 years.
          > >
          > > While in Pali-English dictionary, the word ko.ti is defined as up to
          > a hundred thousand (in number), so if we refer back to the PTS
          > translation, it should be 6.000.000 + 3.000.000 (not 30.000.000) =
          > 9.000.000 years, am i right?
          > >
          > >
          > > We need this information as we are doing the translation, so please,
          > please, please, anyone who wants to give any comment or knows any
          > accurate information related to this, please share it with me, will you?
          > >
          > > Thanks in advance.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > With Metta,
          > > Jo.
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------
          > >
          > > Real people. Real questions. Real answers. Share what you know.
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Jo and Jon, Jo: ko.ti (or crore): In India, a crore equals 10 million in English see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crore sa.t.thi ca vassa-sata-sahassaani
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 1, 2008
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            Dear Jo and Jon,

            Jo:

            ko.ti (or crore): In India, a crore equals 10 million in English
            see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crore

            sa.t.thi ca vassa-sata-sahassaani tisso ca vassa-ko.tiyo
            sixty / and / year-hundred-thousands / three / and / year-crores

            [1]
            sa.t.thi vassa-sata-sahassaani = sixty hundred thousands of vassa
            i.e. 6,000,000 (6M) years

            [2]
            tisso vassa-ko.tiyo = three crores of vassa
            i.e. 30,000,000 (30M) years

            [1+2]
            6M + 30M = 36M
            Hence, 36 million years.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dhamma_joti wrote:

            So if there is anyone from this group who would be willing to have a
            look at the Pali words/sentences and verify whether or not the English
            translation about Sakka's lifespan(36.000.000 years) is correct, and
            if possible with explanation on the Pali--how it can be 36.000.000
            years--.

            > > sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m
            > > khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati.
          • mahipaliha
            ... khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati. ... thirty millions of years, then was born on earth again. This is correct.(1) sa.t.thi =60, sata-sahassa = 100
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 1, 2008
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              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@...> wrote:
              >
              > In CSCD, Jat. II [310] it's written:
              > sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m
              khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati.
              > By PTS, it's translated:
              > Sakka had lived for sixty times an hundred thousand years and
              thirty millions of years, then was born on earth again.

              This is correct.(1) sa.t.thi =60, sata-sahassa = 100 thousand (2)
              tisso =3, ko.ti= 10 million.(Even today they use the word 'crore'
              for 10 m. In modern Sinhala too ko.ti means 10 m.)

              > so overall, 6.000.000+30.000.000 = 36.000.000 years., am i right?

              Yes.

              > while in Dictionary of Pali Proper Name (DPPN), it's mentioned
              as "thirty-six million years and sixty times one hundred thousand".

              Obviously DPPN has erred in saying thirty six million. It should
              have been thirty m.

              > While in Pali-English dictionary, the word ko.ti is defined as up
              to a hundred thousand (in number).

              But, later in the same entry, kahaapa.na koti is rendered as 10 m.
              kahaapa.nas, which is correct. That ko.ti also may mean an
              unspecified large number is however acceptable.

              Mahipaliha
            • Jon Fernquest
              Dear Yong Peng; Thanks for the explanation. The expression of the number in the Pali did seem rather confusing. But you show us that it just follows the
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 1, 2008
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                Dear Yong Peng;

                Thanks for the explanation.
                The expression of the number in the Pali
                did seem rather confusing.

                But you show us that it just follows the standard in Pali
                for verbalizing and writing out numbers like people
                do on checks at the bank.

                36,000,000 human years also matches the
                lifespan for devas in the Taavati.msa heaven
                according to Steven Collins table of
                Buddhist Cosmology (Nirvana and
                other Buddhist Felicities, page 298).

                Although the table says "maximum length of life" at the
                top which raises the question of whether Sakka's lifespan as
                well as that of the other devas is always fixed?

                Also there is more than one cosmological text in
                Theravadan Buddhist cosmology. I wonder if this hierarchy
                with its lifespans is universal across all cosmologies?

                [Note: In old Burmese texts too, numbers are verbalized, not written
                with digits. People still use lakh for large amounts in Burma
                like the value of houses. Perhaps "koti" also (koti = kuti in Burmese).]

                With metta,
                Jon Fernquest



                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Jo and Jon,
                >
                > Jo:
                >
                > ko.ti (or crore): In India, a crore equals 10 million in English
                > see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crore
                >
                > sa.t.thi ca vassa-sata-sahassaani tisso ca vassa-ko.tiyo
                > sixty / and / year-hundred-thousands / three / and / year-crores
                >
                > [1]
                > sa.t.thi vassa-sata-sahassaani = sixty hundred thousands of vassa
                > i.e. 6,000,000 (6M) years
                >
                > [2]
                > tisso vassa-ko.tiyo = three crores of vassa
                > i.e. 30,000,000 (30M) years
                >
                > [1+2]
                > 6M + 30M = 36M
                > Hence, 36 million years.
                >
                > metta,
                > Yong Peng.
                >
                >
                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dhamma_joti wrote:
                >
                > So if there is anyone from this group who would be willing to have a
                > look at the Pali words/sentences and verify whether or not the English
                > translation about Sakka's lifespan(36.000.000 years) is correct, and
                > if possible with explanation on the Pali--how it can be 36.000.000
                > years--.
                >
                > > > sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m
                > > > khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati.
                >
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Jon, I am not so much into Buddhist cosmology. But, I offer a thought for you to ponder. The elaborated discussion of lifespan of devas in Buddhist
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 1, 2008
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                  Dear Jon,

                  I am not so much into Buddhist cosmology. But, I offer a thought for
                  you to ponder. The elaborated discussion of lifespan of devas in
                  Buddhist discourses is to highlight that the heavens are not eternal,
                  as otherwise preached by all other religions. If we go back to the
                  sentence Jo posted:

                  sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m
                  khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati

                  Sakka spent the life of 36 millions and passed away, another Sakka was
                  born.

                  To me, this sentence signifies the impermanence, not lifespan, of
                  Sakka. Having thought that, I have already lost half the appetite for
                  cosmology. ;-) I am just joking, I am in fact very keen in physical
                  (scientific) cosmology, but not so much in religious cosmology,
                  although I do read them occasionally.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

                  there is more than one cosmological text in Theravadan Buddhist
                  cosmology. I wonder if this hierarchy with its lifespans is universal
                  across all cosmologies?
                • Jon Fernquest
                  Yong Peng wrote: I am in fact very keen in physical (scientific) cosmology, but not so much in religious cosmology, I am not so much into Buddhist cosmology.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 2, 2008
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                    Yong Peng wrote: "I am in fact very keen in physical (scientific)
                    cosmology, but not so much in religious cosmology, I am not so much into
                    Buddhist cosmology."

                    Same with me from a personal standpoint, but to understand Burmese
                    historical writings I need to understand Buddhist cosmology (and maybe
                    even my neighbors since they have photos of monks that fly on their
                    altars, haven't really asked them about this much though)

                    U Kala's Mahayazawingyi historical chronicle written in early 1700s
                    starts off with cosmology and has frequent cosmological references like
                    the following that I was translating just before I checked my email:

                    "Queen Bwa Saw addressed the king trying to comfort him, "O great king
                    who is an embryo Buddha (a-laung min-gyi) all the suffering creatures
                    who wander in the three worlds will not be freed from the eight Dan Taya
                    (eight predicaments), even the Sa-kya-wa-dei (universal monarch) Mandat
                    (Mandhata) king who governs over the four great islands surrounded by
                    2000 smaller islands, as well as the two-tiered country of the Nats, is
                    not free from the law of Na Na bawa (ghosts and evil spirits) and Wi Na
                    bawa (separation after death), when from the preaching of the law (of
                    the Buddha), you realize this through wisdom (binnya-daw-hpyin
                    hsin-chin-daw-mu-thi), your heart will be free from hindrance (a-naut
                    a-shet). "

                    Pe Maung Tin and Luce, Glass Palace Chronicle, 1923:
                    'O king Alaung, all suffering creatures who wander in the three worlds
                    must need endure the eight world-predicaments. Thine heart will not be
                    comforted until thou weighest these words of the Law : "Not ever the
                    universal monarch, king Mandhata, sovereign ruler of the four great
                    Islands and two thousand lesser isles surrounding them, and of the two
                    limboes of the world of spirits, is free from rise and fall separations,
                    and the breach of death" '

                    This comforting from his queen takes place just after the Chinese (Yuan
                    dynasty) have invaded his kingdom around 1285, though it may be largely
                    literary embellishment.

                    Maybe Buddhist Cosmology is being used here to convince the king that
                    even though he is a king and therefore very important in his kingdom, in
                    the grand scheme of things he is very small, similar to the message of
                    Mahasudassana Jataka (No. 95) maybe.

                    The chronicle also has nissaya Burmese with Pali for some of the early
                    more cosmological sections.

                    [Note: Some details of cosmology even seem to detract from religious
                    practice. Like the detail that Steven Collins gives about deva realms
                    that can experience sexual pleasure. I found this a little distracting.]

                    With metta,

                    Jon Fernquest
                  • johan wijaya
                    Dear Yong Peng, Jon, and Mahipaliha, Thank you very much for verifying that the translation of PTS is actually correct about the lifespan of Sakka (36.000.000
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 6, 2008
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                      Dear Yong Peng, Jon, and Mahipaliha,

                      Thank you very much for verifying that the translation of PTS is actually correct about the lifespan of Sakka (36.000.000 years).

                      Regarding to what Mahipaliha said that DPPN might have erred in writing "thirty six million years and sixty times one hundred thousand", I also think the same (after knowing the explanation from Yong Peng's clear description on the amount of years)....and it seems like nobody wants to comment on this, whether or not DPPN might have erred in doing so, I would have to take it as a 'yes' then.

                      Yong Peng and Jon,
                      Sorry, i don't join your talk about cosmology as I myself have a very limited knowledge about such thing.


                      Once again, thank you very much to all who have been willing to respond to this subject/topic message. Hopefully, you all would always do the same thing--keep responding to any subject that you know the answer--
                      I am really lucky to have found and been the member of this Paligroups, eventhough I am not active in answering/commenting any message. Hope, nobody minds....


                      With Metta,
                      Jo.

                      Jon Fernquest <bayinnaung@...> wrote: Dear Yong Peng;

                      Thanks for the explanation.
                      The expression of the number in the Pali
                      did seem rather confusing.

                      But you show us that it just follows the standard in Pali
                      for verbalizing and writing out numbers like people
                      do on checks at the bank.

                      36,000,000 human years also matches the
                      lifespan for devas in the Taavati.msa heaven
                      according to Steven Collins table of
                      Buddhist Cosmology (Nirvana and
                      other Buddhist Felicities, page 298).

                      Although the table says "maximum length of life" at the
                      top which raises the question of whether Sakka's lifespan as
                      well as that of the other devas is always fixed?

                      Also there is more than one cosmological text in
                      Theravadan Buddhist cosmology. I wonder if this hierarchy
                      with its lifespans is universal across all cosmologies?

                      [Note: In old Burmese texts too, numbers are verbalized, not written
                      with digits. People still use lakh for large amounts in Burma
                      like the value of houses. Perhaps "koti" also (koti = kuti in Burmese).]

                      With metta,
                      Jon Fernquest

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Jo and Jon,
                      >
                      > Jo:
                      >
                      > ko.ti (or crore): In India, a crore equals 10 million in English
                      > see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crore
                      >
                      > sa.t.thi ca vassa-sata-sahassaani tisso ca vassa-ko.tiyo
                      > sixty / and / year-hundred-thousands / three / and / year-crores
                      >
                      > [1]
                      > sa.t.thi vassa-sata-sahassaani = sixty hundred thousands of vassa
                      > i.e. 6,000,000 (6M) years
                      >
                      > [2]
                      > tisso vassa-ko.tiyo = three crores of vassa
                      > i.e. 30,000,000 (30M) years
                      >
                      > [1+2]
                      > 6M + 30M = 36M
                      > Hence, 36 million years.
                      >
                      > metta,
                      > Yong Peng.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dhamma_joti wrote:
                      >
                      > So if there is anyone from this group who would be willing to have a
                      > look at the Pali words/sentences and verify whether or not the English
                      > translation about Sakka's lifespan(36.000.000 years) is correct, and
                      > if possible with explanation on the Pali--how it can be 36.000.000
                      > years--.
                      >
                      > > > sakko sa.t.thi ca vassasatasahassaani tisso ca vassako.tiyo aayu.m
                      > > > khepetvaa cavi, a~n~no sakko nibbati.
                      >






                      ---------------------------------

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