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Re: [Pali] Problems translating a sentence from the Jaataka

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  • Mahinda Palihawadana
    ... To translate in this manner, we have to understand that vandite is an incomplete locative absolute standing for bhagavati vandite: when the Bl. One was
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 26, 2008
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      On 2/26/08, flrobert2000 <flrobert2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear all,
      >
      > I have problems translating the following sentence (from
      > Khuddakanikaaye, Jaataka-a.t.thakathaa, Nidaanakathaa, 3.
      > Santikenidaanakathaa):
      >
      > Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho naama
      > ekasaakiyopi naahosi.
      > This can be translated as follows: When (the Blessed One) was worshipped
      > by the king, there wasn't a single Sakiyan who was able to stay without
      > worshipping (avanditvaa) the Blessed One (bhagavanta.m).
      >

      To translate in this manner, we have to 'understand' that vandite is an
      incomplete locative absolute standing for bhagavati vandite: when the Bl.
      One was worshipped. The word bhagavant.m (acc. singular) should be taken
      with avanditvaa .thaatu.m: to stay without worshipping.

      The word vandite is a Passive Past Participle, locative singular. The
      implied subject of the clause would naturally be also a locative singular
      (bhagavati).

      Also, we will have some difficulty if we translate avanditvaa literally as
      "not having worshipped"; so we should slightly change it to "without
      worshipping".

      Hope this makes it cleaar.

      Mahipaliha




      .
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear venerable Mahinda, this is just one sentence but we all can learn from the way you explained it so clearly. I stared at it and thought: loc. vandite must
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 27, 2008
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        Dear venerable Mahinda,
        this is just one sentence but we all can learn from the way you
        explained it so clearly.
        I stared at it and thought: loc. vandite must be an absolute but
        could not find the subject. But I have seen before that sometimes
        these are omitted.
        Marvellous, thank you.
        Nina.
        Op 27-feb-2008, om 1:33 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
        geschreven:

        > Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho naama
        > > ekasaakiyopi naahosi.
        > > This can be translated as follows: When (the Blessed One) was
        > worshipped
        > > by the king, there wasn't a single Sakiyan who was able to stay
        > without
        > > worshipping (avanditvaa) the Blessed One (bhagavanta.m).
        > >
        >
        > To translate in this manner, we have to 'understand' that vandite
        > is an
        > incomplete locative absolute standing for bhagavati vandite: when
        > the Bl.
        > One was worshipped. The word bhagavant.m (acc. singular) should be
        > taken
        > with avanditvaa .thaatu.m: to stay without worshipping.
        >
        > The word vandite is a Passive Past Participle, locative singular. The
        > implied subject of the clause would naturally be also a locative
        > singular
        > (bhagavati).



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Anderson
        Dear Nina and Mahipaliha, I think ra~n~naa should be ra~n~ne --- the missing subject of vandite . This is the reading given in the online Thai Budsir
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 27, 2008
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          Dear Nina and Mahipaliha,

          I think "ra~n~naa" should be "ra~n~ne" --- the missing subject
          of "vandite". This is the reading given in the online Thai Budsir
          edition on page 139.

          Best wishes,
          Jim

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear venerable Mahinda,
          > this is just one sentence but we all can learn from the way you
          > explained it so clearly.
          > I stared at it and thought: loc. vandite must be an absolute but
          > could not find the subject. But I have seen before that sometimes
          > these are omitted.
          > Marvellous, thank you.
          > Nina.
          > Op 27-feb-2008, om 1:33 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
          > geschreven:
          >
          > > Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho
          > > naama ekasaakiyopi naahosi.
        • flrobert2000
          Dear Venerable, Thank you very much for your clear explanations. I spent so much time thinking about the syntax of this sentence and now it all makes sense.
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 27, 2008
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            Dear Venerable,

            Thank you very much for your clear explanations. I spent so much time
            thinking about the syntax of this sentence and now it all makes sense.

            Kind regards,

            Florent Robert

            > > This can be translated as follows: When (the Blessed One) was
            worshipped
            > > by the king, there wasn't a single Sakiyan who was able to stay
            without
            > > worshipping (avanditvaa) the Blessed One (bhagavanta.m).
            > >
            >
            > To translate in this manner, we have to 'understand' that vandite is an
            > incomplete locative absolute standing for bhagavati vandite: when
            the Bl.
            > One was worshipped. The word bhagavant.m (acc. singular) should be
            taken
            > with avanditvaa .thaatu.m: to stay without worshipping.
            >
            > The word vandite is a Passive Past Participle, locative singular. The
            > implied subject of the clause would naturally be also a locative
            singular
            > (bhagavati).
            >
            > Also, we will have some difficulty if we translate avanditvaa
            literally as
            > "not having worshipped"; so we should slightly change it to "without
            > worshipping".
            >
            > Hope this makes it cleaar.
            >
            > Mahipaliha
            >
            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • flrobert2000
            Dear Jim, In this case would the translation be: When the king worshipped (the Blessed One), there wasn t a single Sakiyan who was able to stay without
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 27, 2008
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              Dear Jim,

              In this case would the translation be:

              "When the king worshipped (the Blessed One), there wasn't a single
              Sakiyan who was able to stay without worshipping the Blessed One."?

              Would it mean then that a second "Bhagavanta.m" is understood here or
              can Bhagavanta.m be the object of both "Ra~n~ne vandite" and
              "bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m"?

              Kind regards,

              Florent

              > Dear Nina and Mahipaliha,
              >
              > I think "ra~n~naa" should be "ra~n~ne" --- the missing subject
              > of "vandite". This is the reading given in the online Thai Budsir
              > edition on page 139.
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Jim
              >
              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear venerable Mahinda,
              > > this is just one sentence but we all can learn from the way you
              > > explained it so clearly.
              > > I stared at it and thought: loc. vandite must be an absolute but
              > > could not find the subject. But I have seen before that sometimes
              > > these are omitted.
              > > Marvellous, thank you.
              > > Nina.
              > > Op 27-feb-2008, om 1:33 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
              > > geschreven:
              > >
              > > > Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho
              > > > naama ekasaakiyopi naahosi.
              >
            • Jim Anderson
              ... Dear Florent, You re getting close to my reading of the sentence. I m interpreting .thaatu.m in the sense of to stand (lit.)i.e. they couldn t get up
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 27, 2008
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                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "flrobert2000" <flrobert2000@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Jim,
                >
                > In this case would the translation be:
                >
                > "When the king worshipped (the Blessed One), there wasn't a single
                > Sakiyan who was able to stay without worshipping the Blessed One."?

                Dear Florent,

                You're getting close to my reading of the sentence. I'm
                interpreting ".thaatu.m" in the sense of "to stand" (lit.)i.e. they
                couldn't get up because of the Buddha's power. I would place "without
                worshipping..." in an earlier position.

                "...there wasn't a single Sakiyan who was, without worshipping
                the Blessed One, able to stand (up)."?

                > Would it mean then that a second "Bhagavanta.m" is understood here
                > or can Bhagavanta.m be the object of both "Ra~n~ne vandite" and
                > "bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m"?

                It may be possible that "bhagavanta.m" is the object of
                both "vandite" and "avanditvaa" but I'm not sure whether or not this
                is permissible in Pali grammar. It's a bit of a problem. If two are
                required then we could assume ellipsis for one of them. Another
                problem to think about is the timing. Were they unable to stand while
                the king was worshipping the Buddha or was it just after he
                worshipped the Buddha? Sometimes a past participle can have a present
                tense meaning but I think this would depend on which verb is used.

                Best wishes,
                Jim
              • mahipaliha
                ... Dear Nina, With the wording as given, I think my explanation is correct, yes. However, I am not a venerable . Thanks. Mahipaliha
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 27, 2008
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                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear venerable Mahinda,etc.

                  Dear Nina,
                  With the wording as given, I think my explanation is correct, yes.
                  However, I am not a 'venerable'. Thanks.

                  Mahipaliha
                • Mahinda Palihawadana
                  ... I presume you understand that this ra~n~ne forms a loc. absol. with vandite? The trouble then is it would mean when the king was worshipped . We cannot
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 27, 2008
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                    On 2/27/08, Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Nina and Mahipaliha,
                    >
                    > I think "ra~n~naa" should be "ra~n~ne" --- the missing subject
                    > of "vandite". This is the reading given in the online Thai Budsir
                    > edition on page 139.
                    >

                    I presume you understand that this ra~n~ne forms a loc. absol. with vandite?
                    The trouble then is it would mean "when the king was worshipped ". We cannot
                    forget that vand- is a transitive verb and vandite is the *passive* past
                    participle. It's like *chinne rukkhe: when the tree was cut down*. I can't
                    see how it can mean "when the king worshipped", which I believe is the sense
                    required by the context. (I do not have the resources right now to check
                    this up.) We must also ask, why have the other editions opted for ra~n~naa
                    in preference to ra~n~ne. Perhaps someone can look up the story and say what
                    is the sense natural to the context.
                    Mahipaliha



                    Best wishes,
                    > Jim
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, Nina van Gorkom
                    > <vangorko@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear venerable Mahinda,
                    > > this is just one sentence but we all can learn from the way you
                    > > explained it so clearly.
                    > > I stared at it and thought: loc. vandite must be an absolute but
                    > > could not find the subject. But I have seen before that sometimes
                    > > these are omitted.
                    > > Marvellous, thank you.
                    > > Nina.
                    > > Op 27-feb-2008, om 1:33 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
                    > > geschreven:
                    > >
                    > > > Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho
                    > > > naama ekasaakiyopi naahosi.
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jim Anderson
                    Dear Mahipaliha, ... Yes, that was what I was thinking. Now I m not so sure. ... You may be right. Unfortunately, I m in a similar situation of being away from
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 28, 2008
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                      Dear Mahipaliha,

                      > > I think "ra~n~naa" should be "ra~n~ne" --- the missing subject
                      > > of "vandite". This is the reading given in the online Thai Budsir
                      > > edition on page 139.
                      > >
                      >
                      > I presume you understand that this ra~n~ne forms a loc. absol. with
                      > vandite?

                      Yes, that was what I was thinking. Now I'm not so sure.

                      > The trouble then is it would mean "when the king was
                      > worshipped ". We cannot forget that vand- is a transitive verb and
                      > vandite is the *passive* past participle. It's like *chinne rukkhe:
                      > when the tree was cut down*. I can't see how it can mean "when the
                      > king worshipped", which I believe is the sense required by the
                      > context. (I do not have the resources right now to check this up.)
                      > We must also ask, why have the other editions opted for ra~n~naa
                      > in preference to ra~n~ne. Perhaps someone can look up the story and
                      > say what is the sense natural to the context.
                      > Mahipaliha

                      You may be right. Unfortunately, I'm in a similar situation of being
                      away from most of my Pali resources which would allow me to check the
                      PTS reading and a translation of the Jatakas. It would also be a good
                      idea to check with Warder on the uses of the locative abosolute. The
                      examples I'm seeing in the classical grammars are with present
                      participles. I'll keep on the lookout for examples with the past
                      participle.

                      Best wishes,
                      Jim
                    • Jim Anderson
                      Dear Florent, There is a sentence in the Mahaaparinibbaansutta that has a vandite in combination with an instrumental like the one you cited from Ja I 87:
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 29, 2008
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                        Dear Florent,

                        There is a sentence in the Mahaaparinibbaansutta that has a "vandite"
                        in combination with an instrumental like the one you cited from Ja I
                        87:

                        Vandite ca panaayasmataa mahaakassapena tehi ca pa~ncahi
                        bhikkhusatehi sayameva bhagavato citako pajjali. --- D II 164

                        And on account of what was venerated by the Venerable Mahaa Kassapa
                        and the five hundred bhikkhus, the funeral pile of the Blessed One,
                        just by itself, burst into flames. (my translation).

                        "vandite" in the locative singular might be from the neuter
                        noun "vandita.m" like "bhaasita.m" in "tena bhaasita.m" --- what was
                        spoken by him (see Kacc-v 556).

                        The locative sense might be as "cause" (on account of) like
                        in "ku~njaro dantesu ha~n~nate" --- the elephant was killed on
                        account of its tusks (see Kacc-v 310)

                        So, based on the above, "ra~n~naa pana vandite . . ." --- could be
                        translated as "And on account of what was venerated by the king . . ."

                        I also thought of "veneration" (action noun) instead of "what was
                        venerated" (object noun) but ruled it out because it seems that we
                        would need a genitive "ra~n~no" to go with "vandite" according to the
                        examples given at Kacc-v 556, e.g., tassa hasita.m --- his laughter.

                        Best wishes,
                        Jim
                      • Piya Tan
                        Dear Jim, Do you have a digital copy of Kaccayaana-V and Moggallaa.na-V? (Besides the CSCD, that is; preferably an edited one.) Thanks & metta, Piya Tan On
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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                          Dear Jim,

                          Do you have a digital copy of Kaccayaana-V and Moggallaa.na-V?
                          (Besides the CSCD, that is; preferably an edited one.)

                          Thanks & metta,

                          Piya Tan


                          On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 2:52 AM, Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...>
                          wrote:

                          > Dear Florent,
                          >
                          > There is a sentence in the Mahaaparinibbaansutta that has a "vandite"
                          > in combination with an instrumental like the one you cited from Ja I
                          > 87:
                          >
                          > Vandite ca panaayasmataa mahaakassapena tehi ca pa~ncahi
                          > bhikkhusatehi sayameva bhagavato citako pajjali. --- D II 164
                          >
                          > And on account of what was venerated by the Venerable Mahaa Kassapa
                          > and the five hundred bhikkhus, the funeral pile of the Blessed One,
                          > just by itself, burst into flames. (my translation).
                          >
                          > "vandite" in the locative singular might be from the neuter
                          > noun "vandita.m" like "bhaasita.m" in "tena bhaasita.m" --- what was
                          > spoken by him (see Kacc-v 556).
                          >
                          > The locative sense might be as "cause" (on account of) like
                          > in "ku~njaro dantesu ha~n~nate" --- the elephant was killed on
                          > account of its tusks (see Kacc-v 310)
                          >
                          > So, based on the above, "ra~n~naa pana vandite . . ." --- could be
                          > translated as "And on account of what was venerated by the king . . ."
                          >
                          > I also thought of "veneration" (action noun) instead of "what was
                          > venerated" (object noun) but ruled it out because it seems that we
                          > would need a genitive "ra~n~no" to go with "vandite" according to the
                          > examples given at Kacc-v 556, e.g., tassa hasita.m --- his laughter.
                          >
                          > Best wishes,
                          > Jim
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          The Minding Centre
                          Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                          Singapore 650644
                          Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jim Anderson
                          ... Dear Piya, Sorry, my digital copies come from CSCD and SlTP which are unedited. It s best to get the hard copies. I was able to order and receive the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Jim,
                            >
                            > Do you have a digital copy of Kaccayaana-V and Moggallaa.na-V?
                            > (Besides the CSCD, that is; preferably an edited one.)
                            >
                            > Thanks & metta,
                            >
                            > Piya Tan

                            Dear Piya,

                            Sorry, my digital copies come from CSCD and SlTP which are unedited.
                            It's best to get the hard copies. I was able to order and receive the
                            Kaccaayana-byaakara.na and Moggallaana-byaakara.na from
                            myanmarbook.com based in Yangon ($10 usd per book). They are in
                            Burmese script and include the vutti or commentary on the grammatical
                            suttas. I'm working on producing an edited digital version but it
                            will be years before I'm finished. I recently read that the
                            Moggallaana system is modelled after Candragomin's Ssnskrit grammar.
                            I would like to say that the interpretation of "ra~n~naa pana
                            vandite" I gave in my previous message has some mistakes and is
                            really at the stage of trial and error. I made a mistake
                            with "ha~n~nate". It should be translated as "is killed" not "was
                            killed". Also, "vandite" still remains problematic for me. I don't
                            know Kacc-v all that well --- there is so much more to learn.

                            Best wishes,
                            Jim
                          • flrobert2000
                            Dear Jim, Thanks for your attempts to explains this use of vandite. I will ask my Pali teachers in Yangon as soon as I get back there and will let you know
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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                              Dear Jim,

                              Thanks for your attempts to explains this use of vandite. I will ask
                              my Pali teachers in Yangon as soon as I get back there and will let
                              you know what they think. I will also try to find out how it has been
                              translated in Burmese.
                              With metta,

                              Florent

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Dear Jim,
                              > >
                              > > Do you have a digital copy of Kaccayaana-V and Moggallaa.na-V?
                              > > (Besides the CSCD, that is; preferably an edited one.)
                              > >
                              > > Thanks & metta,
                              > >
                              > > Piya Tan
                              >
                              > Dear Piya,
                              >
                              > Sorry, my digital copies come from CSCD and SlTP which are unedited.
                              > It's best to get the hard copies. I was able to order and receive the
                              > Kaccaayana-byaakara.na and Moggallaana-byaakara.na from
                              > myanmarbook.com based in Yangon ($10 usd per book). They are in
                              > Burmese script and include the vutti or commentary on the grammatical
                              > suttas. I'm working on producing an edited digital version but it
                              > will be years before I'm finished. I recently read that the
                              > Moggallaana system is modelled after Candragomin's Ssnskrit grammar.
                              > I would like to say that the interpretation of "ra~n~naa pana
                              > vandite" I gave in my previous message has some mistakes and is
                              > really at the stage of trial and error. I made a mistake
                              > with "ha~n~nate". It should be translated as "is killed" not "was
                              > killed". Also, "vandite" still remains problematic for me. I don't
                              > know Kacc-v all that well --- there is so much more to learn.
                              >
                              > Best wishes,
                              > Jim
                              >
                            • Jim Anderson
                              ... Thanks, Florent, I look forward to hearing what you can find out in Yangon. It s good that you have a Pali teacher to help you. About a month ago, I met
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "flrobert2000" <flrobert2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Jim,
                                >
                                > Thanks for your attempts to explains this use of vandite. I will ask
                                > my Pali teachers in Yangon as soon as I get back there and will let
                                > you know what they think. I will also try to find out how it has
                                > been translated in Burmese.
                                > With metta,
                                >
                                > Florent

                                Thanks, Florent, I look forward to hearing what you can find out in
                                Yangon. It's good that you have a Pali teacher to help you. About a
                                month ago, I met and spoke with a senior Burmese bhikkhu, also a Pali
                                teacher, who was visiting a meditation centre just outside of
                                Montreal and he tells me that one can learn Pali much more quickly
                                with a good teacher. It takes about two years to teach a student the
                                Kaccaayanabyaakara.na or one year for a bright student.
                                Unfortunately, Pali teachers are few and far between outside of South
                                Asia.

                                Best wishes,
                                Jim
                              • Jon Fernquest
                                Florent wrote: I will also try to find out how it has been translated in Burmese. The nissaya genre of Burmese literature (also genre of Mon, Yuan/Chiang
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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                                  Florent wrote: "I will also try to find out how it has been translated
                                  in Burmese."

                                  The "nissaya" genre of Burmese literature
                                  (also genre of Mon, Yuan/Chiang Mai literature),
                                  essentially a phrase by phrase interleaved translation
                                  of Pali into Burmese, addresses this exact issue.

                                  Some of these works exist in published book form
                                  (listed in front of Stewart's Burmese dictionary)
                                  but most I suspect are only in palm leaf.
                                  Something to check for in Peter Skilling's
                                  palm leaf text library in Nonthaburi.

                                  The following book in French supposedly
                                  describes the genre in detail.
                                  Has anyone had a chance to read it?

                                  Pruitt, William
                                  Etude linguistique de nissaya birmans:
                                  traduction commentee de textes bouddhiques
                                  Paris :
                                  Presses de l'Ecole francaise d'Extreme-Orient,
                                  1994
                                  Monographies ; no. 174
                                  Tipitaka. Vinayapitaka. Suttavibhanga.
                                  Patimokkha. Bhikkhupatimokkha. Burmese
                                  Buddhist literature, Burmese --
                                  Translations from Pali
                                  ISBN 2 85 539 774 X
                                  http://lib.sac.or.th/search/

                                  I believe that Justin McDaniels is coming out with a book this year
                                  that addresses nissaya for Yuan/Chiang Mai language.

                                  Anyway what I am reading from these discussions is a parallel
                                  Pali-English corpus is needed:
                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_text
                                  I'm doing a parallel alignment/translation of my favorite Jataka,
                                  the Mahasuddasana Jataka, no 95.

                                  [Also an extensive and complete master syllabus for Pali that has all
                                  grammar points systematically arranged, perhaps in flow chart form,
                                  for example, the locative case ending on a word may indicate a
                                  locative absolute phrase which requires a noun object, no object?,
                                  then possible ellipsis, must substitute object, find object, which
                                  object is most reasonable choice?....BTW the quickest way to come up
                                  to speed on locative absolute phrases seems to be Yong Peng's answers
                                  to exercises chapter 16, Warder, what I will be quizzing myself with
                                  while walking to work this week, thanks Yong Peng!]

                                  [Also Thanks for the references to those grammars]

                                  With metta
                                  Jon Fernquest
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear Jon, the answers which you referred to was contributed by John (Kelly). And, so, thanks John! http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/pali.php?palidd=c16 metta, Yong
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 1, 2008
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                                    Dear Jon,

                                    the answers which you referred to was contributed by John (Kelly).
                                    And, so, thanks John!

                                    http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/pali.php?palidd=c16

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng.


                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jon Fernquest wrote:

                                    the quickest way to come up to speed on locative absolute phrases
                                    seems to be Yong Peng's answers to exercises chapter 16, Warder, what
                                    I will be quizzing myself with while walking to work this week, thanks
                                    Yong Peng!
                                  • flrobert2000
                                    Dear Mahapaliha and Jim, I asked my teacher about the use of vandite in the sentence: Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho naama
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 16, 2008
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                                      Dear Mahapaliha and Jim,

                                      I asked my teacher about the use of vandite in the sentence:

                                      "Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho
                                      naama ekasaakiyopi naahosi."

                                      According to him, vandite stands instead of vandito (vandite vandito
                                      hutvaa he told me), and Bhagavaa in the nominative singular is
                                      understood. He said that here the passive form implied by Ra~n~naa
                                      competes with the locative absolute. This happens sometimes,
                                      especially in the commentarial litterature and in this case the
                                      passive form is stronger.

                                      However after researching a bit I also found this sentence in the texts

                                      "Suddhodanamahaaraajena pana vandite bhagavati avanditvaa .thito
                                      naama ekasaakiyopi naahosi"

                                      which further confuses me! I haven't talked about it with my teacher
                                      yet but I will do so as soon as I meet him.

                                      Regards,

                                      Florent
                                    • Mahinda Palihawadana
                                      Dear friend, No problem here, really. The new sentence you have quoted is a recast of the earlier one. It means When the Blessed One was worshipped by king
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 16, 2008
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                                        Dear friend,
                                        No problem here, really. The new sentence you have quoted is a recast of the
                                        earlier one. It means" When the Blessed One was worshipped by king
                                        Suddhodana, there was not even a single Sakiyan (who was) able to stay
                                        without worshipping him". Note the locative absolute "mhaaraajena
                                        bhagavati vandite". It confirms our guess that bhagavati was understood in
                                        the earlier sentence too.

                                        Mahinda


                                        On 3/16/08, flrobert2000 <flrobert2000@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Mahapaliha and Jim,
                                        >
                                        > I asked my teacher about the use of vandite in the sentence:
                                        >
                                        > "Ra~n~naa pana vandite bhagavanta.m avanditvaa .thaatu.m samattho
                                        > naama ekasaakiyopi naahosi."
                                        >
                                        > According to him, vandite stands instead of vandito (vandite vandito
                                        > hutvaa he told me), and Bhagavaa in the nominative singular is
                                        > understood. He said that here the passive form implied by Ra~n~naa
                                        > competes with the locative absolute. This happens sometimes,
                                        > especially in the commentarial litterature and in this case the
                                        > passive form is stronger.
                                        >
                                        > However after researching a bit I also found this sentence in the texts
                                        >
                                        > "Suddhodanamahaaraajena pana vandite bhagavati avanditvaa .thito
                                        > naama ekasaakiyopi naahosi"
                                        >
                                        > which further confuses me! I haven't talked about it with my teacher
                                        > yet but I will do so as soon as I meet him.
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        >
                                        > Florent
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Jim Anderson
                                        Dear Florent (and Mahinda), Thank-you for sharing your teacher s explanation of this puzzling matter and for the Suddhodana quote from Sp V 1006 which I wasn t
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 17, 2008
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                                          Dear Florent (and Mahinda),

                                          Thank-you for sharing your teacher's explanation of this puzzling
                                          matter and for the Suddhodana quote from Sp V 1006 which I wasn't aware
                                          of. I would like to pass on another possible solution, offered by Ole
                                          Pind on my own list and supported by Lance Cousins, which is to
                                          take "vandite" as an accusative plural in association with "paade" of
                                          the previous sentence. "...tumhaaka.m paade vandaami, aya.m me vandanaa
                                          ti. ra~n~naa pana vandite. . ." --- " . . . I honour your feet, 'this
                                          is my third salutation'. And (his feet) being honoured by the
                                          king, . . ." The same usage of 'vandite' with 'paade' also occurs at D
                                          II 164. I hadn't considered this possibility before but it sounds
                                          plausible to me.

                                          Best wishes,
                                          Jim
                                        • mahipaliha
                                          ... aware ... Ole ... of ... vandanaa ... feet, this ... Dear Jim, I do not wish to split hairs, but this is perplexing. Even in terms of this
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 20, 2008
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                                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear Florent (and Mahinda),
                                            >
                                            > Thank-you for sharing your teacher's explanation of this puzzling
                                            > matter and for the Suddhodana quote from Sp V 1006 which I wasn't
                                            aware
                                            > of. I would like to pass on another possible solution, offered by
                                            Ole
                                            > Pind on my own list and supported by Lance Cousins, which is to
                                            > take "vandite" as an accusative plural in association with "paade"
                                            of
                                            > the previous sentence. "...tumhaaka.m paade vandaami, aya.m me
                                            vandanaa
                                            > ti. ra~n~naa pana vandite. . ." --- " . . . I honour your
                                            feet, 'this
                                            > is my third salutation'. And (his feet) being honoured by the
                                            > king, . . ."

                                            Dear Jim,
                                            I do not wish to split hairs, but this is perplexing. Even in terms
                                            of this interpretation,it seems to me that we
                                            cannot take paade ( the paade which you have put within
                                            parenthesis) as an acc, pl. To get the sense "feet being honoured by
                                            the king", we must assume that paade is in a locative absolute
                                            construction, isn't it? But in that case, it should be "padesu
                                            vanditesu", because otherwise it would mean that the king worshipped
                                            only one foot. Are you thinking of an accusative absolute?

                                            >The same usage of 'vandite' with 'paade' also occurs at D
                                            > II 164.

                                            What we have at D. ii 164 is "vandite ca pana aayasmataa mahaa-
                                            kassapena ...sayam eva bhagavato citako pajjali" wich is similar
                                            to "vandite pana ra~n~naa" in our passage. It means "when worshipped
                                            by the venerable Mahaakassapa the Blessed One's pyre lighted of its
                                            own accord. Here we have the locative absolute "vandite .. citake"
                                            the latter word being again "understood". There is no 'paade' here.

                                            Best wishes.
                                            Mahinda
                                          • Jim Anderson
                                            Dear Mahinda,
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Mar 20, 2008
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                                              Dear Mahinda,

                                              << Dear Jim,
                                              I do not wish to split hairs, but this is perplexing. Even in terms
                                              of this interpretation,it seems to me that we
                                              cannot take paade ( the paade which you have put within
                                              parenthesis) as an acc, pl. To get the sense "feet being honoured by
                                              the king", we must assume that paade is in a locative absolute
                                              construction, isn't it? But in that case, it should be "padesu
                                              vanditesu", because otherwise it would mean that the king worshipped
                                              only one foot. Are you thinking of an accusative absolute? >>

                                              Jim:
                                              Yes, but only after Lance Cousins said " I would call that construction
                                              'accusative absolute'. " (his words). Now I have never seen the accusative
                                              absolute being described in any of the Pali grammars I'm aware of --- just
                                              locative and genitive absolutes --- so it's rather new to me.

                                              >The same usage of 'vandite' with 'paade' also occurs at D
                                              > II 164.

                                              Mahinda:
                                              << What we have at D. ii 164 is "vandite ca pana aayasmataa mahaa-
                                              kassapena ...sayam eva bhagavato citako pajjali" wich is similar
                                              to "vandite pana ra~n~naa" in our passage. It means "when worshipped
                                              by the venerable Mahaakassapa the Blessed One's pyre lighted of its
                                              own accord. Here we have the locative absolute "vandite .. citake"
                                              the latter word being again "understood". There is no 'paade' here. >>

                                              Jim:
                                              The relevant D II 164 passage is: ". . .bhagavato paade sirasaa vandi.msu.
                                              vandite ca pana aayasmataa. . ." Ole Pind says there shouldn't be a period
                                              after 'vandi.msu". Hence, ". . .they honoured the feet of the Bhagavant with
                                              the head and, furthermore, while (the feet) were being honoured by the
                                              Venerable. . ." or " . . .when (the feet were) worshipped by. . ." The
                                              problem with an understood "citake" in a locative absolute construction is
                                              that the object of honouring has shifted from the feet to the pyre. The
                                              "paade" (acc. pl.) also occurs earlier in our Ja I 88 passage but its
                                              connection to "vandite" would be more convincing if we had "vandite
                                              ca pana ra~n~naa" instead of "ra~n~naa pana vandite". I cannot decide for
                                              sure which of the two interpretations (yours or Ole's) is correct if only
                                              one of them can be correct and, if so, for what reason. I simply do not know
                                              enough Pali grammar to decide.

                                              I have also been thinking about the "snehaanvayamiv osadhaa" passage which I
                                              find even harder to interpret.

                                              Best wishes,
                                              Jim
                                            • mahipaliha
                                              ... construction ... I have much respect for Lance Cousins, but would not hesitate to form my own judgement on an issue. While working on the Dhammapada and
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Mar 20, 2008
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                                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >Mahinda : Are you thinking of an accusative absolute? >>
                                                >
                                                > Jim:
                                                > Yes, but only after Lance Cousins said " I would call that
                                                construction
                                                > 'accusative absolute'. " (his words).

                                                I have much respect for Lance Cousins, but would not hesitate to
                                                form my own judgement on an issue. While working on the Dhammapada
                                                and its commentary (since published by OUP/USA), I realized how even
                                                the brightest Pali scholars have on occaion tripped. So I won't be
                                                overawed, nor would I reject a scholar's opinion out of hand. The
                                                possibilty of this being an acc. abs. is admitted.

                                                > Now I have never seen the accusative
                                                > absolute being described in any of the Pali grammars I'm aware of -

                                                The late O.H. de A. Wijesekaera,Sri Lankan scholar (incidentally my
                                                Skt teacher) describes it in his Syntax of the Cases in the Pali
                                                Nikayas, (Post Graduate Inst. of Pali & Buddh. Studies, Colombo
                                                1993) p. 70 f. Just this morning I found that he alludes to this
                                                very passage on p.240. He translates, "When worshipped by the Ven.
                                                MK .. the funeral pyre of Bl One blazed forth by itself" and adds,"
                                                (here) .. the loc. vandite canot be strictly regarded as as
                                                absolute, for the construction can stand even if it were the nom
                                                vandito."

                                                > The relevant D II 164 passage is: ". . .bhagavato paade sirasaa
                                                vandi.msu.
                                                > vandite ca pana aayasmataa. . ." Ole Pind says there shouldn't be
                                                a period
                                                > after 'vandi.msu". Hence, ". . .they honoured the feet of the
                                                Bhagavant with
                                                > the head and, furthermore, while (the feet) were being honoured by
                                                the
                                                > Venerable. . ." or " . . .when (the feet were) worshipped by. . ."
                                                The
                                                > problem with an understood "citake" in a locative absolute
                                                construction is
                                                > that the object of honouring has shifted from the feet to the
                                                pyre.

                                                The pyre with the body of the Buddha inside. Not much of a shift.

                                                The pnctuation question is difficult to resolve because MSS were
                                                notoriously inattentive to punctuation.

                                                I would, for now, assume that
                                                (1)the loc. abs. or a simple locative of time (vandite: after the
                                                act of worship) explains the Mahaprinibbana Sutta passage. But the
                                                acc. abs. construction cannot be ruled out.

                                                (2) In the JA psg, the elliptical loc. abs. vandite (bhagavati)is
                                                more likely, because (a) there is another similar text where the
                                                assumed bhagavati is explicitly present and (b) it suits the context
                                                well. Context being the situation where some relatives of the Buddha
                                                were reluctant to pay homage to their younger relation, but had to
                                                do so when King Suddhodana himself paid homage.

                                                Dear Jim, many thanks for the trouble you took to forward the
                                                exchange of messages in your grammar group and for inviting me to be
                                                a member. But I find that responding to messaages in this group
                                                already consuming too much of my time, which I would gladly spend on
                                                some other activities I am presently engaged in ( where
                                                incidentally, grammar is such a nuisnace to a writer in modern
                                                Sinhalese).
                                                Best wishes.
                                                Mahinda
                                              • Jim Anderson
                                                Dear Mahinda, You wrote:
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Mar 21, 2008
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                                                  Dear Mahinda,

                                                  You wrote:
                                                  << The late O.H. de A. Wijesekaera,Sri Lankan scholar (incidentally my
                                                  Skt teacher) describes it in his Syntax of the Cases in the Pali
                                                  Nikayas, (Post Graduate Inst. of Pali & Buddh. Studies, Colombo
                                                  1993) p. 70 f. Just this morning I found that he alludes to this
                                                  very passage on p.240. He translates, "When worshipped by the Ven.
                                                  MK .. the funeral pyre of Bl One blazed forth by itself" and adds,"
                                                  (here) .. the loc. vandite canot be strictly regarded as as
                                                  absolute, for the construction can stand even if it were the nom
                                                  vandito." >>

                                                  I have not seen Wijesekaera's book but have been hearing about it on my list
                                                  over the past few years. I will see if I can get a copy. Thank-you for all
                                                  the points you've made about "vandite". I'm not ruling out the possibility
                                                  of a locative absolute construction especially in view of the Suddhodana
                                                  passage at Sp V 1006 with "bhagavati" I can also see the merits of
                                                  taking "vandite".as an accusative plural in agreement with "paade"
                                                  especially in the passage at D II 164. Either way, I don't think it makes
                                                  much of a difference in a translation. It's mostly a matter of concern to
                                                  grammarians.

                                                  Best wishes,
                                                  Jim
                                                • flrobert2000
                                                  Dear Mahinda and Jim, Thank you very much for the very interesting discussions that followed my question about this sentence from the Jaataka. I do agree in
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Mar 24, 2008
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                                                    Dear Mahinda and Jim,

                                                    Thank you very much for the very interesting discussions that
                                                    followed my question about this sentence from the Jaataka.

                                                    I do agree in the end that it doesn't make much difference in the
                                                    translation and that it mostly matters to grammarians. I am not sure
                                                    I mentioned it, but this sentence was actually cited in the last
                                                    exercise of Ven. Buddhadatta's New Pali Course Part II. I must say
                                                    that I have found some of the sentences very challenging to
                                                    translate, especially when the context is not very clear. Trying to
                                                    solve Buddhadatta's exercises, have been sometimes quite valuable
                                                    because of the grammatical research and discussions to which they
                                                    lead. Putting back the sentences into context has also helped me to
                                                    discover some inspiring stories, especially from the Dhammapada
                                                    Commentaries.

                                                    My teacher keeps on reminding me that I should try at this stage to
                                                    directly read the suttas (as Bhikkhu Bodhi recommends it in his very
                                                    inspiring pali lectures) in order to gain some fluency, and without
                                                    paying too much attention to some grammatical difficulties. However,
                                                    I still get "frightened" by the complexity of this language and I
                                                    feel sometimes completely hopeless in front of some constructions,
                                                    especially when reading the commentaries. I wonder how many more
                                                    years of studies it will take before I can approach the fluency of my
                                                    teachers, who have been studying it since they were children!

                                                    Regards,

                                                    Florent

                                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson.on@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear Mahinda,
                                                    >
                                                    > You wrote:
                                                    > << The late O.H. de A. Wijesekaera,Sri Lankan scholar (incidentally
                                                    my
                                                    > Skt teacher) describes it in his Syntax of the Cases in the Pali
                                                    > Nikayas, (Post Graduate Inst. of Pali & Buddh. Studies, Colombo
                                                    > 1993) p. 70 f. Just this morning I found that he alludes to this
                                                    > very passage on p.240. He translates, "When worshipped by the Ven.
                                                    > MK .. the funeral pyre of Bl One blazed forth by itself" and adds,"
                                                    > (here) .. the loc. vandite canot be strictly regarded as as
                                                    > absolute, for the construction can stand even if it were the nom
                                                    > vandito." >>
                                                    >
                                                    > I have not seen Wijesekaera's book but have been hearing about it
                                                    on my list
                                                    > over the past few years. I will see if I can get a copy. Thank-you
                                                    for all
                                                    > the points you've made about "vandite". I'm not ruling out the
                                                    possibility
                                                    > of a locative absolute construction especially in view of the
                                                    Suddhodana
                                                    > passage at Sp V 1006 with "bhagavati" I can also see the merits of
                                                    > taking "vandite".as an accusative plural in agreement with "paade"
                                                    > especially in the passage at D II 164. Either way, I don't think it
                                                    makes
                                                    > much of a difference in a translation. It's mostly a matter of
                                                    concern to
                                                    > grammarians.
                                                    >
                                                    > Best wishes,
                                                    > Jim
                                                    >
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