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Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

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  • Branislav Kovacevic
    Dear John, many thanks for the swift answer. I also considered mataa as measure , but must admit that still it is not clear to me what in this context does
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 26, 2008
      Dear John,

      many thanks for the swift answer.
      I also considered "mataa" as "measure", but must admit that still it is not clear to me what in this context does it mean "to know the measure of the gift". For example, although I expound wrong Dhamma, I probably believe it is a good Dhamma and thus maybe overestimate the gift I'm giving.

      Obviously I miss the point of this passage. Could you please elaborate a little bit.

      Metta,
      Branko


      John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Branko,

      I agree, it does seem a little obscure. However, here I would
      translate 'matta' as 'measure' rather than 'moderation' and it becomes
      a little clearer. Thus:

      314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
      measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
      For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
      315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
      measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
      For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.

      Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
      314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
      jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
      bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
      315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
      jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
      bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.

      With metta,
      John








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    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Branislav and John, The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary:
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
        Dear Branislav and John,
        The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
        perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he has
        to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented if he
        gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
        necessary.>
        There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving. Someone
        who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others to
        give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is worthy
        is contented, also when they give not.
        Nina.

        Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
        geschreven:

        > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
        > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
        > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
        > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
        > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
        > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.
        >
        > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
        > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
        > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
        > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
        > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
        > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
        > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John Kelly
        Dear Nina, Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn t seem to fit the original sutta text - unless I m misunderstanding it. My
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
          Dear Nina,
          Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't seem to
          fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
          interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
          have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
          according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
          measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
          doing so.
          What do you think?
          With metta,
          John
          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Branislav and John,
          > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
          > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he has
          > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented if he
          > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
          > necessary.>
          > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving. Someone
          > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others to
          > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is worthy
          > is contented, also when they give not.
          > Nina.
          >
          > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
          > geschreven:
          >
          > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
          > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
          > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
          > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
          > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
          > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.
          > >
          > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
          > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
          > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
          > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
          > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
          > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
          > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Branislav Kovacevic
          Dear Nina and John, it is quite interesting to see your different interpretations. To my view, the key is how we understand the word gift . Is the gift
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
            Dear Nina and John,

            it is quite interesting to see your different interpretations. To my view, the key is how we understand the word "gift". Is the gift badly/well expounded Dhamma or that which is given by upasaka after listening to it?

            At the beginning I was taking the first meaning, but after Nina's comment it seems to me that the other one has more sense. Nina, could you please clarify that reference S. II.200. Which sutta is that in Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka?

            Metta
            Branko


            John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Nina,
            Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't seem to
            fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
            interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
            have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
            according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
            measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
            doing so.
            What do you think?
            With metta,
            John
            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Branislav and John,
            > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
            > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he has
            > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented if he
            > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
            > necessary.>
            > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving. Someone
            > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others to
            > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is worthy
            > is contented, also when they give not.
            > Nina.
            >
            > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
            > geschreven:
            >
            > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
            > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
            > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
            > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
            > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
            > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.
            > >
            > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
            > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
            > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
            > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
            > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
            > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
            > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >






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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear John and Branislav, Op 28-feb-2008, om 6:06 heeft John Kelly het volgende geschreven: My interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 28, 2008
              Dear John and Branislav,
              Op 28-feb-2008, om 6:06 heeft John Kelly het volgende geschreven:
              My
              interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
              have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
              according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
              measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
              doing so.
              N: I also find it a difficult sutta. Here is my own interpretation
              (not saying it is the only possibility): When a bhikkhu does not
              understand kamma and vipaaka, he may think of the person of the
              giver, and think that the giver will know what to give. Hoping to
              receive a lot.
              When he does understand he knows that whatever is received is the
              result of his own kamma, and that he should be contented. He has
              equanimity, no matter he receives much or little.
              -------
              > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
              > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
              > recipient.
              > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
              > Dhamma.
              > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
              > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
              > giver.
              > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
              > Dhamma.
              > > >
              > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
              > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
              > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
              > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
              > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
              > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
              > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
              ------
              Branislav: Nina, could you please clarify that reference S. II.200.
              Which sutta is that in Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka?
              ------
              N: This is the PTS reference. Samyutta NIkaaya, Nidaana vagga, Ch
              XVI, Kassapa samyutta, §4.
              This explains how not to think of giving: 'Let them only give to me
              abundantly..."

              Nina.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Branislav Kovacevic
              Dear Nina, many thanks once again for your clarifications. Metta, Branko Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear John
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
                Dear Nina,
                many thanks once again for your clarifications.

                Metta,
                Branko


                Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear John and Branislav,
                Op 28-feb-2008, om 6:06 heeft John Kelly het volgende geschreven:
                My
                interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
                measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                doing so.
                N: I also find it a difficult sutta. Here is my own interpretation
                (not saying it is the only possibility): When a bhikkhu does not
                understand kamma and vipaaka, he may think of the person of the
                giver, and think that the giver will know what to give. Hoping to
                receive a lot.
                When he does understand he knows that whatever is received is the
                result of his own kamma, and that he should be contented. He has
                equanimity, no matter he receives much or little.
                -------
                > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
                > recipient.
                > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
                > Dhamma.
                > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
                > giver.
                > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
                > Dhamma.
                > > >
                > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
                > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                ------
                Branislav: Nina, could you please clarify that reference S. II.200.
                Which sutta is that in Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka?
                ------
                N: This is the PTS reference. Samyutta NIkaaya, Nidaana vagga, Ch
                XVI, Kassapa samyutta, §4.
                This explains how not to think of giving: 'Let them only give to me
                abundantly..."

                Nina.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Branko, John and Nina, Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from me, since a reference was made about my postings. The choice
                Message 7 of 27 , Mar 1, 2008
                  Dear Branko, John and Nina,

                  Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                  me, since a reference was made about my postings.

                  The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                  would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                  recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10022

                  I accept that 'measure' is a "clearer, more specific" word in this
                  context, as the PTS has mattaa=pamaa.na. It becomes more specific when
                  we have "measure of gift", i.e. we are restricting to the quality of a
                  donation. To keep it simple, let's just use "measure of gift" without
                  further deliberation.

                  The first paragraph, in plain English, means,

                  With the dhammavinaya poorly preached, (it is taught) the "measure of
                  gift" should be known by the giver, not the recipient.

                  Paraphrasing:

                  According to a lousy dhamma teacher, the giver should know how much he
                  is giving, or how much he should give (moderation). For example, if a
                  monk approaches you, and asks you to donate 10% of your income, no
                  more or less, that is lousy. (This is a lousy example, but that's what
                  I can come up with now.)

                  The second paragraph, means exactly the opposite:

                  According to a good dhamma teacher, the recipient should know what he
                  is been given.

                  I think the essence of this short utterance by the Buddha addresses a
                  few key issues.

                  1. greed: the recipient should know how much is received (measure) or
                  how much is enough (moderation), and not keep on receiving from others.

                  2. generosity: on the other hand, the giver should not be overly
                  concerned with how much is given (measure), whether or not it is
                  enough/excessive (moderation). The idea is to give generously and
                  within one's means, not about "creating good kamma" (which is very
                  typical in popular Buddhism), since the later is related to greed (of
                  future wealth).

                  This obviously has little (if any) to do with giving presents/gifts to
                  your loved ones, which is obviously a slightly different case. I hope
                  the explanation helps.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic wrote:

                  somehow couldn't grasp the meaning even after consulting translation
                  given by Mr Ong Yong Peng on this list, message #10022:

                  7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa jaanitabbaa,
                  no pa.tiggaahakena.
                  badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
                  moderation / should be known / not / recipient
                  "(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
                  giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.

                  8. "Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                  jaanitabbaa, no daayakena.
                  well preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by recipient /
                  moderation / should be known / not / giver
                  "(With) the well preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
                  recipient moderation should be known, not the giver.

                  What is the message of this? That the one who wrongly teaches
                  Dhamma-Vinaya should realize that by himself? I'm rather confused.
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Branko and friends, while we are on this topic of locative absolutes, I like to raise that in Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                  Message 8 of 27 , Mar 1, 2008
                    Dear Branko and friends,

                    while we are on this topic of locative absolutes, I like to raise that
                    in "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa jaanitabbaa,
                    no pa.tiggaahakena.", "durakkhaate dhammavinaye" is a locative
                    absolute clause.

                    In the classroom, the student typically would translate the clause as
                    "when the dhammavinaya is poorly preached", in order to demonstrate
                    his mastery of the grammar.

                    I hope this clarifies any doubt on locative absolutes.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                    With the dhammavinaya poorly preached, (it is taught) the "measure of
                    gift" should be known by the giver, not the recipient.

                    > 7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                    jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena.
                    > badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
                    moderation / should be known / not / recipient
                    > "(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
                    giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.
                  • Branislav Kovacevic
                    Dear Yong Peng, of course it s not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I m pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage.
                    Message 9 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
                      Dear Yong Peng,

                      of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.

                      In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:

                      333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                      334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...

                      aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?

                      I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                      "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                      liberation from the cycle."
                      but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these expressions.

                      Many thanks,
                      Branko


                      Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,

                      Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                      me, since a reference was made about my postings.

                      The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                      would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                      recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.






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                    • John Kelly
                      Dear Branko, I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence: Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                      Message 10 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
                        Dear Branko,

                        I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
                        Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                        karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                        evameva.n = so too
                        kho = indeed
                        bhikkhave = bhikkhus
                        appakaa = few
                        te = those
                        sattaa beings
                        ye = which
                        vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
                        vavassagga = relinquishment
                        aramma.na.m = support, basis
                        karitvaa = having made/done
                        labhanti = they gain
                        samadhi.m =concentration

                        "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
                        taken relinquishment as its support ..."

                        With metta,
                        John
                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Yong Peng,
                        >
                        > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                        extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                        passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
                        wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
                        >
                        > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
                        vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
                        figure out:
                        >
                        > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                        vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                        > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                        annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
                        >
                        > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                        >
                        > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
                        For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                        > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                        > liberation from the cycle."
                        > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
                        these expressions.
                        >
                        > Many thanks,
                        > Branko
                        >
                      • Branislav Kovacevic
                        Dear John, many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage. Let it bring you much happiness. Metta, Branko John Kelly wrote:
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
                          Dear John,

                          many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
                          Let it bring you much happiness.

                          Metta,
                          Branko



                          John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Branko,

                          I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
                          Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                          karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                          evameva.n = so too
                          kho = indeed
                          bhikkhave = bhikkhus
                          appakaa = few
                          te = those
                          sattaa beings
                          ye = which
                          vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
                          vavassagga = relinquishment
                          aramma.na.m = support, basis
                          karitvaa = having made/done
                          labhanti = they gain
                          samadhi.m =concentration

                          "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
                          taken relinquishment as its support ..."

                          With metta,
                          John
                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Yong Peng,
                          >
                          > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                          extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                          passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
                          wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
                          >
                          > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
                          vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
                          figure out:
                          >
                          > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                          vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                          > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                          annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
                          >
                          > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                          >
                          > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
                          For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                          > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                          > liberation from the cycle."
                          > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
                          these expressions.
                          >
                          > Many thanks,
                          > Branko
                          >






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                        • johnny pruitt
                          Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
                            Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu
                            It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.

                            Johnny

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

                            Dear Yong Peng,

                            of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.

                            In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:

                            333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                            334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m laabhino...

                            aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?

                            I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                            "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                            liberation from the cycle."
                            but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these expressions.

                            Many thanks,
                            Branko

                            Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,

                            Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                            me, since a reference was made about my postings.

                            The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                            would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                            recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.

                            ------------ --------- --------- ---
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                          • Mahinda Palihawadana
                            Dear Johnny, This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement. How would it read, if you translate it back into English? Mahipaliha ...
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 7, 2008
                              Dear Johnny,

                              This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
                              How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

                              Mahipaliha


                              On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga.no/> bhava.m attu
                              > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
                              > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
                              > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
                              > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
                              > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
                              >
                              > Johnny
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...<ja_sam_branko%40yahoo.com>
                              > >
                              > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
                              >
                              > Dear Yong Peng,
                              >
                              > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                              > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                              > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
                              > I've added a footnote for the reader.
                              >
                              > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
                              > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
                              >
                              > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
                              > samadhi.m...
                              > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
                              > laabhino...
                              >
                              > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                              >
                              > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
                              > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                              > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                              > liberation from the cycle."
                              > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
                              > expressions.
                              >
                              > Many thanks,
                              > Branko
                              >
                              > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
                              >
                              > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                              > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
                              >
                              > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                              > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                              > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
                              >
                              > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                            • mahipaliha
                              Dear friends, I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed. i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only today that I
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 10, 2008
                                Dear friends,
                                I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed.
                                i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only
                                today that I got a copy from a friend. This is what it says: In a
                                well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
                                the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
                                They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
                                much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
                                donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
                                given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
                                go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
                                physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
                                also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
                                good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
                                religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
                                measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
                                Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).

                                I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
                                time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
                                organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
                                that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
                                don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.

                                Mahipaliha

                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                                wrote:

                                > Dear John,
                                >
                                > many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
                                > Let it bring you much happiness.
                                >
                                > Metta,
                                > Branko
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
                                Dear Branko,
                                >
                                > I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the
                                sentence:
                                > Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                                > karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                > evameva.n = so too
                                > kho = indeed
                                > bhikkhave = bhikkhus
                                > appakaa = few
                                > te = those
                                > sattaa beings
                                > ye = which
                                > vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa
                                compound)
                                > vavassagga = relinquishment
                                > aramma.na.m = support, basis
                                > karitvaa = having made/done
                                > labhanti = they gain
                                > samadhi.m =concentration
                                >
                                > "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration
                                having
                                > taken relinquishment as its support ..."
                                >
                                > With metta,
                                > John
                                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Dear Yong Peng,
                                > >
                                > > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                                > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of
                                that
                                > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
                                > wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
                                > >
                                > > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the
                                fourth
                                > vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I
                                can't
                                > figure out:
                                > >
                                > > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                > vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                > > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                > annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
                                > >
                                > > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                                > >
                                > > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a
                                problem.
                                > For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                > > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to
                                attain
                                > > liberation from the cycle."
                                > > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
                                > these expressions.
                                > >
                                > > Many thanks,
                                > > Branko
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
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                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Nina van Gorkom
                                Dear Mahipaliha, ... N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem, of
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 11, 2008
                                  Dear Mahipaliha,

                                  Op 11-mrt-2008, om 0:57 heeft mahipaliha het volgende geschreven:

                                  > In a
                                  > well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
                                  > the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
                                  > They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
                                  > much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
                                  > donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
                                  > given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
                                  > go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
                                  > physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
                                  > also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
                                  > good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
                                  > religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
                                  > measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
                                  > Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).
                                  >
                                  > I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
                                  > time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
                                  > organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
                                  > that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
                                  > don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.
                                  -------
                                  N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being
                                  contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem,
                                  of having to think of what is not original.
                                  Nina.



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • johnny pruitt
                                  well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct. ...
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 14, 2008
                                    well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct.

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>
                                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, March 7, 2008 5:39:54 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

                                    Dear Johnny,

                                    This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
                                    How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

                                    Mahipaliha

                                    On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga. no/> bhava.m attu
                                    > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
                                    > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
                                    > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
                                    > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
                                    > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
                                    >
                                    > Johnny
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@ yahoo.com<ja_sam_branko% 40yahoo.com>
                                    > >
                                    > To: Pali@yahoogroups. com <Pali%40yahoogroups .com>
                                    > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
                                    >
                                    > Dear Yong Peng,
                                    >
                                    > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                                    > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                                    > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
                                    > I've added a footnote for the reader.
                                    >
                                    > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
                                    > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
                                    >
                                    > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
                                    > samadhi.m...
                                    > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
                                    > laabhino...
                                    >
                                    > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                                    >
                                    > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
                                    > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                    > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                                    > liberation from the cycle."
                                    > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
                                    > expressions.
                                    >
                                    > Many thanks,
                                    > Branko
                                    >
                                    > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@ gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
                                    >
                                    > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                                    > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
                                    >
                                    > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                                    > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                                    > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
                                    >
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                                  • joseph
                                    Dear friends it s funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha. when insight
                                    Message 17 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                                      Dear friends
                                      it's funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not
                                      only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha.
                                      when insight arises there would still be no better way of
                                      explanation to be found than it is in the words of the Blessed one.
                                      and only on enlightenment, really, do the meaning of words shine
                                      forth as perfect and clear.
                                      their meaning is simple, but reality is complex, the Dhamma is
                                      wonderous indeed.
                                      in this case, though, I do not mean to boast, these are simply
                                      familiar life situations:

                                      the story, here too, is quite simple.
                                      in a situation where the Dhamma had been badly expounded by a monk,
                                      the listener lay supporter, will have, though his willingness to
                                      support the monk, a better insight to what should be the limited
                                      extent this monk should be treated.
                                      while in the case of a monk who can truly see into the teachings,
                                      he will himself be able to comprehend the situation, the value of
                                      the Dhamma and the opportunity giving may allow for the listener,
                                      who is, as most often is the case, of a lesser insight.

                                      Metta
                                      Jothiko







                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Nina,
                                      > Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't
                                      seem to
                                      > fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
                                      > interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                                      > have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                                      > according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about
                                      the
                                      > measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                                      > doing so.
                                      > What do you think?
                                      > With metta,
                                      > John
                                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dear Branislav and John,
                                      > > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
                                      > > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he
                                      has
                                      > > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented
                                      if he
                                      > > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
                                      > > necessary.>
                                      > > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving.
                                      Someone
                                      > > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others
                                      to
                                      > > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is
                                      worthy
                                      > > is contented, also when they give not.
                                      > > Nina.
                                      > >
                                      > > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
                                      > > geschreven:
                                      > >
                                      > > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline,
                                      the
                                      > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
                                      recipient.
                                      > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
                                      Dhamma.
                                      > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                                      > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
                                      giver.
                                      > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
                                      Dhamma.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                                      > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                                      > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu?
                                      Durakkhaatattaa,
                                      > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                                      > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena
                                      mattaa
                                      > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                                      > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • joseph
                                      Dear friends While I agree with the general idea, The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the hindrance to the achievment of liberation.
                                      Message 18 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                                        Dear friends
                                        While I agree with the general idea,
                                        The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the
                                        hindrance to the achievment of liberation.

                                        Nibbana is actually not equanimity, and it is nothing less of
                                        Nibbana that should be aspired for.
                                        it is the release of any desire, even that to abandon suffering.
                                        Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                                        brain space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words
                                        in the most conventional way.
                                        so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if you look at the
                                        definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not pessimistic or
                                        nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                                        the presence of wisdom is the reason, the support, the truth of
                                        Nibbana, and by that, any of these adverbs is rendered inadaquate.

                                        if it does not seem to make sense, remember that it is anna:
                                        of a different wisdom, a different kind of consciousness.

                                        Metta
                                        Jothiko




                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Leo,
                                        >
                                        > No, quite definitely the first noble truth cannot be interpreted
                                        > simply as "life has suffering". This would clearly be just a
                                        > watering-down of what the Buddha is actually saying.
                                        >
                                        > From the Buddha's first discourse (Dhammacakkhappavattana Sutta)
                                        we have:
                                        > "Ida.m kho pana bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m: Jaati’pi
                                        dukkhaa,
                                        > jaraa’pi dukkhaa, vyaadhi’pi dukkho, mara.nampi dukkha.m.
                                        Appiyehi
                                        > sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho. Yampiccha.m na labhati
                                        > tampi dukkha.m. Sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa."
                                        > "Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
                                        > suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is
                                        > suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation
                                        > from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is
                                        > suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are
                                        > suffering."
                                        >
                                        > The Buddha is not at all denying that there is happiness in life -
                                        > there is plenty - but it is essentially the fact that we cling to
                                        > whatever is pleasant that brings us suffering, because all is
                                        > impermanent. The Buddha exhorts us to develop equanimity with
                                        whatever
                                        > is pleasant or unpleasant. Then a byproduct is that our
                                        happinesses
                                        > will be greater, since we will just be in the present with them,
                                        and
                                        > not consciously or subconsciously creating suffering for ourselves
                                        by
                                        > clinging to that happiness and wanting it to last. Similarly our
                                        > pains in life will be lessened, because with equanimity again we
                                        > simply stay in the present with them and we eliminate all the
                                        mental
                                        > proliferation of thinking about our pain that intensifies our
                                        > suffering. Of course, this is all much easier said than done -
                                        because
                                        > of the roots of greed, aversion, and delusion that are within us.
                                        But
                                        > that's what the Buddhist practice is all about.
                                        >
                                        > I hope this is a little helpful.
                                        >
                                        > With metta,
                                        > John
                                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leoaive@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi
                                        > >
                                        > > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth.
                                        > > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is
                                        suffereing.
                                        > > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different
                                        happiness
                                        > > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble
                                        Truth
                                        > > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all
                                        suffering)
                                        > > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be
                                        translated
                                        > > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language.
                                        > >
                                        > > With Metta
                                        > >
                                        > > Leo
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Bhante, your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar analysis to
                                        Message 19 of 27 , May 6, 2008
                                          Bhante,

                                          your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                                          word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                                          analysis to sukha? Thanks.


                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng.

                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:

                                          Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual brain
                                          space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                                          most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if
                                          you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                                          pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                                        • Gunnar Gällmo
                                          Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                                          Message 20 of 27 , May 6, 2008
                                            Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version
                                            of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the
                                            Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                                            http://www.palikanon.com/khuddaka/sn , but now I get a
                                            message that "Looks like the page you're looking for
                                            was moved or never existed". It did exist, so where
                                            has it moved?

                                            Gunnar


                                            http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto


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                                          • joseph
                                            Dear Friends Specifically Kha is related to `one s environment (probably K.R.Norman),One s space . Maybe even relates to `Aura .the physical energy that
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 7, 2008
                                              Dear Friends
                                              Specifically Kha is related to `one's environment'(probably
                                              K.R.Norman),One's space'. Maybe even relates to `Aura'.the physical
                                              energy that surrounds the body.
                                              While, funny enough. This is a reference to the mind, the may we
                                              say, `non Physical brain'
                                              Mana' the ignorant man constant thinking is by Comparing
                                              himself with others, asmi mana is conceit and maana is measuring.
                                              Du Manasa relates specifically to depression, which is only one facet
                                              of Dhuka.

                                              probably even NamaRupa may relate to the reality that is experienced
                                              as Mind and Brain, since the body, and Physical reality, is truly the
                                              experience related to the Physical brain, only by extention, we
                                              think, or there is in this conditioned view of the body.
                                              This is per se, when the Buddha says `There is a body' Atthi Kayo.
                                              We are faced with a reality, undeniable experience.
                                              So this is again an example of the Indian mind set. And the vital
                                              necessity to see the
                                              Circumstances of the lessons, much in the way a Sutta lesson, should
                                              be seen at it's context, the wider, and the specific one.

                                              any way I like to think about the logical way this highly idiomatic
                                              language forms.
                                              Based on simple, logical conventions of speech and common
                                              understanding,
                                              Often the Pali translation is difficult not only in grammatical
                                              terms but possibly in deeper rooted convictions, maybe it boils down
                                              too, eventually to our view of a `self',

                                              It's a little beside the point, and may look pretentious and high,
                                              but there this example Of the quantum mechanics Theory
                                              Quantum mechanics taught us that there is no objective point of view,
                                              no observer that is outside the system, it is, I think, easy to see
                                              the Buddhist relevance of it, as the
                                              `not self' characteristic of existence. Anatta.

                                              Consciousness is a biological necessity and responds accordingly,
                                              with the necessary self deceit and profit seeking.
                                              No truth but seeing this very process.

                                              The meaning of Nibbana is just this `stopping of the game', resting
                                              from the universal laws of desire, hatred and delusion which push us
                                              to participate in the formation of further actions, preparations and
                                              intentions Sankhara.
                                              This process-game' is based on our ignorance to the fact that there
                                              is no entity, point of view, absolute reality which is `Me'

                                              Our binding action starts by desire, longing, which, because of
                                              ignorance make us believe in the possibility of real satisfaction,
                                              real realization in this world or beyond it, as religious
                                              gratification.

                                              Now this is a dangerous point and must it be understood that there is
                                              no place for nihilism, destructive psychological tendencies and so
                                              on, it is simply often beyond our capacity to face the void, the
                                              emotional emptiness which is the basic nature of reality, existence,
                                              the world.
                                              so we often run, with the encouragement of an ego mental protection,
                                              in to illusion, a religion , taking side on order to belong..

                                              materialism too is making for a philosophy, a belief, even the
                                              Atheist.
                                              attachment to logic, a view of a future hope of success.
                                              science, though taking the quantum opportuinity per se, is not
                                              manifesting a belief in the passive freedom that is opened up, it
                                              cannot function that way, it remains the tool of progress and greed.

                                              This is not bad; it's actually a social reality.
                                              But truth can be experienced and realized, it may need training, as
                                              it rises only at the space that is created by inner quietude,
                                              serenity, peacefulness.
                                              I think the use of the word `space' is most satisfactory.

                                              Su Kha is happiness, mental exhilaration that contains physical or
                                              mental feeling.
                                              Both can be experienced as a bodily experience.
                                              But the duality su/du
                                              may also relate to `the bad path' the un wholesome way which stands
                                              in relation to the Eight fold path (see M.N. 117).
                                              While here the idea of Samma is crucial.

                                              Nibbana, by reality and definition, is `the cessation of the causes
                                              of the bad' The simple denial of the cause, not `happy or `sad'.

                                              It relates to a mind attitude, feeling, reality circumstances and
                                              above all, to rebirth, re enactment of existence in illusion, life.

                                              Equanimity is quite close, but it lacks the Quantum! leap of the
                                              light which has a quality of Metta, the active avoidance of
                                              attachment, which , in relation to a 'self' is 'other' Anna.

                                              `Since Nibbana exists, the way to develop it is the only wisdom'.
                                              Hence Buddhism,
                                              but simply, understanding this Can be, must be, implemented as part
                                              of any world view,
                                              it's easy to see the case above as relating to one worldly way, but
                                              religion, even in a
                                              clearer fashion should be a base for the Dhamma.
                                              the Buddha himself has accepted the old Indian gods.
                                              the Tibetans , too, has Idam, a personal god, a protector of the
                                              search for the Dhamma.
                                              .Sri lankan have gods to refer to when trouble (the chief one is
                                              Kataragama, the residence, the name of the town here)
                                              The Jewish Shekhina' is similar, I think it is presence', or the
                                              Indian concept of Shakti, the power, presence, manifestation, female
                                              side of the various gods.
                                              This is advanced theology, too much actually.
                                              It may be any chosen god of belief, why not?

                                              But a belief that negates the quantum is a wrong view which lead to
                                              suffering…
                                              No god is this eternal point, the causeless cause, whatever the
                                              religious imaginations like to make of their traditional, past based
                                              yearnings.

                                              Now there is the presence of the path, that means the right way.
                                              The preliminary thought may be connected to belief, faith, which is a
                                              good place to start, but not necessarily, not, as we show, as a
                                              matter of taking sides, but a personal,
                                              Lonely often, experience of the consequences of truth,

                                              Sorry, I was writing a sermon when I saw the letter, so it all came
                                              out like that..
                                              I meant to elaborate more about the linguistic aspect, as you see,
                                              amateurism may sometimes be an advantage.

                                              I also find, in order to fully engulf some unnecessary conventions,
                                              it may be helpful to
                                              See some ideas of later Buddhist schools, and even of the Indian
                                              sphere.

                                              Metta
                                              Jothiko


                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Bhante,
                                              >
                                              > your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                                              > word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                                              > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > metta,
                                              > Yong Peng.
                                              >
                                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                                              brain
                                              > space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                                              > most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble,
                                              if
                                              > you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                                              > pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                                              >
                                            • joseph
                                              ... can we apply similar ... Dear friends Su = good, positive Kha = space, presence. the idiom of positive space can be seen as three fold: amisa sukha -
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 9, 2008
                                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                can we apply similar
                                                > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                                                >
                                                Dear friends
                                                Su = good, positive
                                                Kha = space, presence.
                                                the idiom of 'positive space' can be seen as three fold:

                                                amisa sukha - physical-emotional bliss, an ingredient of the first
                                                jhana, where body and bliss are, like a sponge 'fully saturated with
                                                water'.

                                                niramisa sukha - mental emotional happiness, of the third jhana,
                                                where equanimity which is 'inspection from a high point', gives the
                                                image of lotus flowers of various colors, fully immersed in water.

                                                sukha = satisfaction, finding fulfilment.
                                                hence 'kama sukalika' = satisfaction with the sphere of the senses.
                                                'sukha vipasana' = satisfaction with the thoughtful inquiry.
                                                (the dry aspect is also in relation to the duality, the mnaturity of
                                                the wood that can be burned
                                                'nibbana paramam sukham = cessation is the satisfaction of
                                                (attaining)the beyond'.

                                                The MahaArahat Venerable Sariputta explains that Nibbana is happiness
                                                exactly because it is devoid of feelings.

                                                Metta
                                                Jothiko
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