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Re: [Pali] noble truth

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  • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
    Hi Leo, ... You can read the original formulation in Mahasatipatthana sutta (section D 5): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html Also
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 2, 2008
      Hi Leo,

      > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be translated
      > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language.

      You can read the original formulation in Mahasatipatthana sutta (section
      D 5):

      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html

      Also you may find useful the article:

      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/lifeisnt.html

      With Metta,
      Dmytro
    • John Kelly
      Hello Leo, No, quite definitely the first noble truth cannot be interpreted simply as life has suffering . This would clearly be just a watering-down of what
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 4, 2008
        Hello Leo,

        No, quite definitely the first noble truth cannot be interpreted
        simply as "life has suffering". This would clearly be just a
        watering-down of what the Buddha is actually saying.

        From the Buddha's first discourse (Dhammacakkhappavattana Sutta) we have:
        "Ida.m kho pana bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m: Jaati’pi dukkhaa,
        jaraa’pi dukkhaa, vyaadhi’pi dukkho, mara.nampi dukkha.m. Appiyehi
        sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho. Yampiccha.m na labhati
        tampi dukkha.m. Sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa."
        "Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
        suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is
        suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation
        from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is
        suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are
        suffering."

        The Buddha is not at all denying that there is happiness in life -
        there is plenty - but it is essentially the fact that we cling to
        whatever is pleasant that brings us suffering, because all is
        impermanent. The Buddha exhorts us to develop equanimity with whatever
        is pleasant or unpleasant. Then a byproduct is that our happinesses
        will be greater, since we will just be in the present with them, and
        not consciously or subconsciously creating suffering for ourselves by
        clinging to that happiness and wanting it to last. Similarly our
        pains in life will be lessened, because with equanimity again we
        simply stay in the present with them and we eliminate all the mental
        proliferation of thinking about our pain that intensifies our
        suffering. Of course, this is all much easier said than done - because
        of the roots of greed, aversion, and delusion that are within us. But
        that's what the Buddhist practice is all about.

        I hope this is a little helpful.

        With metta,
        John
        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leoaive@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi
        >
        > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth.
        > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is suffereing.
        > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different happiness
        > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble Truth
        > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all suffering)
        > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be translated
        > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language.
        >
        > With Metta
        >
        > Leo
        >
      • Branislav Kovacevic
        Dear All, I undertake to translate some parts from Anguttara Nikaya, Book of Ones, as a Pali excercise. Therefore came to suttas 314-315, but somehow couldn t
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 26, 2008
          Dear All,

          I undertake to translate some parts from Anguttara Nikaya, Book of Ones, as a Pali excercise. Therefore came to suttas 314-315, but somehow couldn't grasp the meaning even after consulting translation given by Mr Ong Yong Peng on this list, message #10022:

          7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
          jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena.
          badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
          moderation / should be known / not / recipient
          "(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
          giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.

          8. "Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
          jaanitabbaa, no daayakena.
          well preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by recipient /
          moderation / should be known / not / giver
          "(With) the well preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
          recipient moderation should be known, not the giver.

          What is the message of this? That the one who wrongly teaches Dhamma-Vinaya should realize that by himself? I'm rather confused.

          Sorry if this is a trivial question, but I believe everybody was once at this stage :)

          Metta,
          Branko




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        • John Kelly
          Dear Branko, I agree, it does seem a little obscure. However, here I would translate matta as measure rather than moderation and it becomes a little
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 26, 2008
            Dear Branko,

            I agree, it does seem a little obscure. However, here I would
            translate 'matta' as 'measure' rather than 'moderation' and it becomes
            a little clearer. Thus:

            314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
            measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
            For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
            315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
            measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
            For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.

            Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
            314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
            jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
            bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
            315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
            jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
            bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.

            With metta,
            John

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear All,
            >
            > I undertake to translate some parts from Anguttara Nikaya, Book of
            Ones, as a Pali excercise. Therefore came to suttas 314-315, but
            somehow couldn't grasp the meaning even after consulting translation
            given by Mr Ong Yong Peng on this list, message #10022:
            >
            > 7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
            > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena.
            > badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
            > moderation / should be known / not / recipient
            > "(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
            > giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.
            >
            > 8. "Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
            > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena.
            > well preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by recipient /
            > moderation / should be known / not / giver
            > "(With) the well preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
            > recipient moderation should be known, not the giver.
            >
            > What is the message of this? That the one who wrongly teaches
            Dhamma-Vinaya should realize that by himself? I'm rather confused.
            >
            > Sorry if this is a trivial question, but I believe everybody was
            once at this stage :)
            >
            > Metta,
            > Branko
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Branislav Kovacevic
            Dear John, many thanks for the swift answer. I also considered mataa as measure , but must admit that still it is not clear to me what in this context does
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 26, 2008
              Dear John,

              many thanks for the swift answer.
              I also considered "mataa" as "measure", but must admit that still it is not clear to me what in this context does it mean "to know the measure of the gift". For example, although I expound wrong Dhamma, I probably believe it is a good Dhamma and thus maybe overestimate the gift I'm giving.

              Obviously I miss the point of this passage. Could you please elaborate a little bit.

              Metta,
              Branko


              John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Branko,

              I agree, it does seem a little obscure. However, here I would
              translate 'matta' as 'measure' rather than 'moderation' and it becomes
              a little clearer. Thus:

              314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
              measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
              For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
              315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
              measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
              For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.

              Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
              314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
              jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
              bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
              315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
              jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
              bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.

              With metta,
              John








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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Branislav and John, The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary:
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
                Dear Branislav and John,
                The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
                perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he has
                to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented if he
                gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
                necessary.>
                There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving. Someone
                who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others to
                give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is worthy
                is contented, also when they give not.
                Nina.

                Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
                geschreven:

                > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
                > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
                > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
                > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.
                >
                > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
                > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Kelly
                Dear Nina, Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn t seem to fit the original sutta text - unless I m misunderstanding it. My
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
                  Dear Nina,
                  Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't seem to
                  fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
                  interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                  have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                  according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
                  measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                  doing so.
                  What do you think?
                  With metta,
                  John
                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Branislav and John,
                  > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
                  > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he has
                  > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented if he
                  > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
                  > necessary.>
                  > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving. Someone
                  > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others to
                  > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is worthy
                  > is contented, also when they give not.
                  > Nina.
                  >
                  > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
                  > geschreven:
                  >
                  > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                  > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
                  > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
                  > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                  > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
                  > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.
                  > >
                  > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                  > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                  > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
                  > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                  > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                  > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                  > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Branislav Kovacevic
                  Dear Nina and John, it is quite interesting to see your different interpretations. To my view, the key is how we understand the word gift . Is the gift
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
                    Dear Nina and John,

                    it is quite interesting to see your different interpretations. To my view, the key is how we understand the word "gift". Is the gift badly/well expounded Dhamma or that which is given by upasaka after listening to it?

                    At the beginning I was taking the first meaning, but after Nina's comment it seems to me that the other one has more sense. Nina, could you please clarify that reference S. II.200. Which sutta is that in Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka?

                    Metta
                    Branko


                    John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Nina,
                    Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't seem to
                    fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
                    interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                    have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                    according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
                    measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                    doing so.
                    What do you think?
                    With metta,
                    John
                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Branislav and John,
                    > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
                    > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he has
                    > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented if he
                    > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
                    > necessary.>
                    > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving. Someone
                    > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others to
                    > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is worthy
                    > is contented, also when they give not.
                    > Nina.
                    >
                    > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
                    > geschreven:
                    >
                    > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                    > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the recipient.
                    > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this Dhamma.
                    > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                    > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the giver.
                    > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this Dhamma.
                    > >
                    > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                    > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                    > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
                    > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                    > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                    > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                    > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >






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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear John and Branislav, Op 28-feb-2008, om 6:06 heeft John Kelly het volgende geschreven: My interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 28, 2008
                      Dear John and Branislav,
                      Op 28-feb-2008, om 6:06 heeft John Kelly het volgende geschreven:
                      My
                      interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                      have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                      according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
                      measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                      doing so.
                      N: I also find it a difficult sutta. Here is my own interpretation
                      (not saying it is the only possibility): When a bhikkhu does not
                      understand kamma and vipaaka, he may think of the person of the
                      giver, and think that the giver will know what to give. Hoping to
                      receive a lot.
                      When he does understand he knows that whatever is received is the
                      result of his own kamma, and that he should be contented. He has
                      equanimity, no matter he receives much or little.
                      -------
                      > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                      > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
                      > recipient.
                      > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
                      > Dhamma.
                      > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                      > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
                      > giver.
                      > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
                      > Dhamma.
                      > > >
                      > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                      > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                      > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
                      > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                      > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                      > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                      > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                      ------
                      Branislav: Nina, could you please clarify that reference S. II.200.
                      Which sutta is that in Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka?
                      ------
                      N: This is the PTS reference. Samyutta NIkaaya, Nidaana vagga, Ch
                      XVI, Kassapa samyutta, §4.
                      This explains how not to think of giving: 'Let them only give to me
                      abundantly..."

                      Nina.





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Branislav Kovacevic
                      Dear Nina, many thanks once again for your clarifications. Metta, Branko Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear John
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
                        Dear Nina,
                        many thanks once again for your clarifications.

                        Metta,
                        Branko


                        Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear John and Branislav,
                        Op 28-feb-2008, om 6:06 heeft John Kelly het volgende geschreven:
                        My
                        interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                        have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                        according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about the
                        measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                        doing so.
                        N: I also find it a difficult sutta. Here is my own interpretation
                        (not saying it is the only possibility): When a bhikkhu does not
                        understand kamma and vipaaka, he may think of the person of the
                        giver, and think that the giver will know what to give. Hoping to
                        receive a lot.
                        When he does understand he knows that whatever is received is the
                        result of his own kamma, and that he should be contented. He has
                        equanimity, no matter he receives much or little.
                        -------
                        > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                        > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
                        > recipient.
                        > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
                        > Dhamma.
                        > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                        > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
                        > giver.
                        > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
                        > Dhamma.
                        > > >
                        > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                        > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                        > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Durakkhaatattaa,
                        > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                        > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                        > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                        > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                        ------
                        Branislav: Nina, could you please clarify that reference S. II.200.
                        Which sutta is that in Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka?
                        ------
                        N: This is the PTS reference. Samyutta NIkaaya, Nidaana vagga, Ch
                        XVI, Kassapa samyutta, §4.
                        This explains how not to think of giving: 'Let them only give to me
                        abundantly..."

                        Nina.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                      • Ong Yong Peng
                        Dear Branko, John and Nina, Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from me, since a reference was made about my postings. The choice
                        Message 11 of 27 , Mar 1, 2008
                          Dear Branko, John and Nina,

                          Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                          me, since a reference was made about my postings.

                          The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                          would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                          recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/10022

                          I accept that 'measure' is a "clearer, more specific" word in this
                          context, as the PTS has mattaa=pamaa.na. It becomes more specific when
                          we have "measure of gift", i.e. we are restricting to the quality of a
                          donation. To keep it simple, let's just use "measure of gift" without
                          further deliberation.

                          The first paragraph, in plain English, means,

                          With the dhammavinaya poorly preached, (it is taught) the "measure of
                          gift" should be known by the giver, not the recipient.

                          Paraphrasing:

                          According to a lousy dhamma teacher, the giver should know how much he
                          is giving, or how much he should give (moderation). For example, if a
                          monk approaches you, and asks you to donate 10% of your income, no
                          more or less, that is lousy. (This is a lousy example, but that's what
                          I can come up with now.)

                          The second paragraph, means exactly the opposite:

                          According to a good dhamma teacher, the recipient should know what he
                          is been given.

                          I think the essence of this short utterance by the Buddha addresses a
                          few key issues.

                          1. greed: the recipient should know how much is received (measure) or
                          how much is enough (moderation), and not keep on receiving from others.

                          2. generosity: on the other hand, the giver should not be overly
                          concerned with how much is given (measure), whether or not it is
                          enough/excessive (moderation). The idea is to give generously and
                          within one's means, not about "creating good kamma" (which is very
                          typical in popular Buddhism), since the later is related to greed (of
                          future wealth).

                          This obviously has little (if any) to do with giving presents/gifts to
                          your loved ones, which is obviously a slightly different case. I hope
                          the explanation helps.

                          metta,
                          Yong Peng.


                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic wrote:

                          somehow couldn't grasp the meaning even after consulting translation
                          given by Mr Ong Yong Peng on this list, message #10022:

                          7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa jaanitabbaa,
                          no pa.tiggaahakena.
                          badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
                          moderation / should be known / not / recipient
                          "(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
                          giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.

                          8. "Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena mattaa
                          jaanitabbaa, no daayakena.
                          well preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by recipient /
                          moderation / should be known / not / giver
                          "(With) the well preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
                          recipient moderation should be known, not the giver.

                          What is the message of this? That the one who wrongly teaches
                          Dhamma-Vinaya should realize that by himself? I'm rather confused.
                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Dear Branko and friends, while we are on this topic of locative absolutes, I like to raise that in Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                          Message 12 of 27 , Mar 1, 2008
                            Dear Branko and friends,

                            while we are on this topic of locative absolutes, I like to raise that
                            in "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa jaanitabbaa,
                            no pa.tiggaahakena.", "durakkhaate dhammavinaye" is a locative
                            absolute clause.

                            In the classroom, the student typically would translate the clause as
                            "when the dhammavinaya is poorly preached", in order to demonstrate
                            his mastery of the grammar.

                            I hope this clarifies any doubt on locative absolutes.

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                            With the dhammavinaya poorly preached, (it is taught) the "measure of
                            gift" should be known by the giver, not the recipient.

                            > 7. "Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                            jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena.
                            > badly preached / monks / Teaching and Discipline / by giver /
                            moderation / should be known / not / recipient
                            > "(With) the badly preached Teaching and Discipline, O monks, by the
                            giver moderation should be known, not the recipient.
                          • Branislav Kovacevic
                            Dear Yong Peng, of course it s not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I m pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
                              Dear Yong Peng,

                              of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.

                              In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:

                              333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                              334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...

                              aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?

                              I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                              "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                              liberation from the cycle."
                              but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these expressions.

                              Many thanks,
                              Branko


                              Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,

                              Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                              me, since a reference was made about my postings.

                              The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                              would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                              recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.






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                            • John Kelly
                              Dear Branko, I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence: Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                              Message 14 of 27 , Mar 2, 2008
                                Dear Branko,

                                I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
                                Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                                karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                evameva.n = so too
                                kho = indeed
                                bhikkhave = bhikkhus
                                appakaa = few
                                te = those
                                sattaa beings
                                ye = which
                                vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
                                vavassagga = relinquishment
                                aramma.na.m = support, basis
                                karitvaa = having made/done
                                labhanti = they gain
                                samadhi.m =concentration

                                "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
                                taken relinquishment as its support ..."

                                With metta,
                                John
                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Yong Peng,
                                >
                                > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                                extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                                passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
                                wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
                                >
                                > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
                                vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
                                figure out:
                                >
                                > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
                                >
                                > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                                >
                                > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
                                For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                                > liberation from the cycle."
                                > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
                                these expressions.
                                >
                                > Many thanks,
                                > Branko
                                >
                              • Branislav Kovacevic
                                Dear John, many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage. Let it bring you much happiness. Metta, Branko John Kelly wrote:
                                Message 15 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
                                  Dear John,

                                  many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
                                  Let it bring you much happiness.

                                  Metta,
                                  Branko



                                  John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote: Dear Branko,

                                  I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the sentence:
                                  Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                                  karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                  evameva.n = so too
                                  kho = indeed
                                  bhikkhave = bhikkhus
                                  appakaa = few
                                  te = those
                                  sattaa beings
                                  ye = which
                                  vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa compound)
                                  vavassagga = relinquishment
                                  aramma.na.m = support, basis
                                  karitvaa = having made/done
                                  labhanti = they gain
                                  samadhi.m =concentration

                                  "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration having
                                  taken relinquishment as its support ..."

                                  With metta,
                                  John
                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Yong Peng,
                                  >
                                  > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                                  extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                                  passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
                                  wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
                                  >
                                  > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth
                                  vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't
                                  figure out:
                                  >
                                  > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                  vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                  > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                  annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
                                  >
                                  > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                                  >
                                  > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem.
                                  For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                  > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                                  > liberation from the cycle."
                                  > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
                                  these expressions.
                                  >
                                  > Many thanks,
                                  > Branko
                                  >






                                  ---------------------------------
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • johnny pruitt
                                  Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Mar 4, 2008
                                    Paa.liga.no bhava.m attu
                                    It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.

                                    Johnny

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

                                    Dear Yong Peng,

                                    of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.

                                    In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:

                                    333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                    334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m laabhino...

                                    aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?

                                    I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                    "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                                    liberation from the cycle."
                                    but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these expressions.

                                    Many thanks,
                                    Branko

                                    Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,

                                    Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                                    me, since a reference was made about my postings.

                                    The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                                    would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                                    recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.

                                    ------------ --------- --------- ---
                                    Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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                                  • Mahinda Palihawadana
                                    Dear Johnny, This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement. How would it read, if you translate it back into English? Mahipaliha ...
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Mar 7, 2008
                                      Dear Johnny,

                                      This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
                                      How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

                                      Mahipaliha


                                      On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga.no/> bhava.m attu
                                      > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
                                      > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
                                      > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
                                      > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
                                      > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
                                      >
                                      > Johnny
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...<ja_sam_branko%40yahoo.com>
                                      > >
                                      > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                                      > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
                                      >
                                      > Dear Yong Peng,
                                      >
                                      > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                                      > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                                      > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
                                      > I've added a footnote for the reader.
                                      >
                                      > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
                                      > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
                                      >
                                      > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
                                      > samadhi.m...
                                      > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
                                      > laabhino...
                                      >
                                      > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                                      >
                                      > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
                                      > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                      > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                                      > liberation from the cycle."
                                      > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
                                      > expressions.
                                      >
                                      > Many thanks,
                                      > Branko
                                      >
                                      > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
                                      >
                                      > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                                      > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
                                      >
                                      > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                                      > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                                      > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
                                      >
                                      > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                                      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • mahipaliha
                                      Dear friends, I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed. i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only today that I
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Mar 10, 2008
                                        Dear friends,
                                        I too was intrigued by this passage in Anguttara Nikaya (PTS ed.
                                        i.34) and wanted to see what the commentary has to say. It is only
                                        today that I got a copy from a friend. This is what it says: In a
                                        well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
                                        the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
                                        They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
                                        much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
                                        donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
                                        given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
                                        go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
                                        physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
                                        also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
                                        good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
                                        religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
                                        measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
                                        Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).

                                        I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
                                        time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
                                        organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
                                        that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
                                        don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.

                                        Mahipaliha

                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > Dear John,
                                        >
                                        > many thanks for your kindness in translating this passage.
                                        > Let it bring you much happiness.
                                        >
                                        > Metta,
                                        > Branko
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
                                        Dear Branko,
                                        >
                                        > I will take a shot at your question about breaking down the
                                        sentence:
                                        > Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                        vavassaggaaramma.na.m
                                        > karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                        > evameva.n = so too
                                        > kho = indeed
                                        > bhikkhave = bhikkhus
                                        > appakaa = few
                                        > te = those
                                        > sattaa beings
                                        > ye = which
                                        > vavassaggaaramma.na.m = vavassagga + aaramma.na.m (tappurisa
                                        compound)
                                        > vavassagga = relinquishment
                                        > aramma.na.m = support, basis
                                        > karitvaa = having made/done
                                        > labhanti = they gain
                                        > samadhi.m =concentration
                                        >
                                        > "So too, bhikkhus, few are those beings who gain concentration
                                        having
                                        > taken relinquishment as its support ..."
                                        >
                                        > With metta,
                                        > John
                                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Dear Yong Peng,
                                        > >
                                        > > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                                        > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of
                                        that
                                        > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the
                                        > wording, I've added a footnote for the reader.
                                        > >
                                        > > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the
                                        fourth
                                        > vagga (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I
                                        can't
                                        > figure out:
                                        > >
                                        > > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                        > vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa labhanti samadhi.m...
                                        > > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye
                                        > annaggarasaggaana.m laabhino...
                                        > >
                                        > > aarammaṇa: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                                        > >
                                        > > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a
                                        problem.
                                        > For "vavassaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                        > > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to
                                        attain
                                        > > liberation from the cycle."
                                        > > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of
                                        > these expressions.
                                        > >
                                        > > Many thanks,
                                        > > Branko
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
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                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Nina van Gorkom
                                        Dear Mahipaliha, ... N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem, of
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Mar 11, 2008
                                          Dear Mahipaliha,

                                          Op 11-mrt-2008, om 0:57 heeft mahipaliha het volgende geschreven:

                                          > In a
                                          > well-proclaimed (i.e. good) religious dispensation (dhamma-vinaya),
                                          > the `recipients' (the monks and nuns) should "know the measure".
                                          > They should know the donor's wish to give; if the religious need
                                          > much, but the donor wants to give little, they should follow the
                                          > donor's wish. They also should know how much is available to be
                                          > given: if that is little and donor wants to give much, they should
                                          > go by the quantity available. Then they should also know their own
                                          > physical capacity: if the available quantity is much and the donor
                                          > also likes to give much, they should go by how much they can put to
                                          > good use. These considerations do not occur in the case of a bad
                                          > religious dispensation. Therefore the donor should "know the
                                          > measure" and give accordingly. (AN Commentary I, Simon Hewavitharne
                                          > Bequest ed, Colombo 1923, p. 261 f.).
                                          >
                                          > I personally think this sort of comment reflects the spirit of the
                                          > time when the Buddha's teachings became enmeshed in
                                          > organized `Buddhism". Even in the Nikaya texts, there may be much
                                          > that derives from that spirit (and therefore not `original'). I
                                          > don't see how we can separate what is original from what is not.
                                          -------
                                          N: I find the Co. very clear. It reflects the spirit of being
                                          contented with little, fewness of wishes. I do not see any problem,
                                          of having to think of what is not original.
                                          Nina.



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • johnny pruitt
                                          well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct. ...
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Mar 14, 2008
                                            well concerning the initial greeting I am assume that it means may there be good fortune ot the pali group (ga.no?). not sure really if it is correct.

                                            ----- Original Message ----
                                            From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>
                                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Friday, March 7, 2008 5:39:54 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315

                                            Dear Johnny,

                                            This is just an aside. I am rather puzzled by the initial Pali statement.
                                            How would it read, if you translate it back into English?

                                            Mahipaliha

                                            On 3/5/08, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Paa.liga.no <http://paa.liga. no/> bhava.m attu
                                            > It seems to me that when the buddha says that someone who expounds the
                                            > dhamma poorly should know how much to give means that in other systems of
                                            > doctrine the teachers are taught to be esoteric. Some religious sects only
                                            > intitiate some and keep others in the dark. Perhaps the Buddha meant that in
                                            > a system that is well proclaimed the teacher should not hold anything back.
                                            >
                                            > Johnny
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                            > From: Branislav Kovacevic <ja_sam_branko@ yahoo.com<ja_sam_branko% 40yahoo.com>
                                            > >
                                            > To: Pali@yahoogroups. com <Pali%40yahoogroups .com>
                                            > Sent: Sunday, March 2, 2008 5:13:56 AM
                                            > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: AN I.314-315
                                            >
                                            > Dear Yong Peng,
                                            >
                                            > of course it's not too late, since you clarified the meaning so
                                            > extensively. Now I'm pretty sure I grasped the right meaning of that
                                            > passage. Since translation itself is still obscure because of the wording,
                                            > I've added a footnote for the reader.
                                            >
                                            > In the meantime, I continued with the same book and in the fourth vagga
                                            > (AN I.333-334) came upon two compounds whose meaning I can't figure out:
                                            >
                                            > 333. Evameva.n kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye vavassaggaaramma. na.mkaritvaa labhanti
                                            > samadhi.m...
                                            > 334. Evameva.m kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye annaggarasaggaana. m
                                            > laabhino...
                                            >
                                            > aarammaṇ a: a sense-object, but what abut the rest?
                                            >
                                            > I've checked your translation and it seems you also had a problem. For
                                            > "vavassaggaaramma. na.m karitvaa" Nina suggested:
                                            > "N: I would think: resolution to strive, to reach the goal, to attain
                                            > liberation from the cycle."
                                            > but I'd like to know what are the constituent words for both of these
                                            > expressions.
                                            >
                                            > Many thanks,
                                            > Branko
                                            >
                                            > Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@ gmail. com> wrote: Dear Branko, John and Nina,
                                            >
                                            > Branko: thanks for your mail. I hope this is not too late a reply from
                                            > me, since a reference was made about my postings.
                                            >
                                            > The choice of word for 'mattaa' is probably the source of confusion. I
                                            > would have chosen 'moderation' for some good reasons, but I can't
                                            > recall it since the original message was posted two years ago.
                                            >
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                                          • joseph
                                            Dear friends it s funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha. when insight
                                            Message 21 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                                              Dear friends
                                              it's funny, but problems with the texts of the pali are often not
                                              only getting the right text but actually understanding the Buddha.
                                              when insight arises there would still be no better way of
                                              explanation to be found than it is in the words of the Blessed one.
                                              and only on enlightenment, really, do the meaning of words shine
                                              forth as perfect and clear.
                                              their meaning is simple, but reality is complex, the Dhamma is
                                              wonderous indeed.
                                              in this case, though, I do not mean to boast, these are simply
                                              familiar life situations:

                                              the story, here too, is quite simple.
                                              in a situation where the Dhamma had been badly expounded by a monk,
                                              the listener lay supporter, will have, though his willingness to
                                              support the monk, a better insight to what should be the limited
                                              extent this monk should be treated.
                                              while in the case of a monk who can truly see into the teachings,
                                              he will himself be able to comprehend the situation, the value of
                                              the Dhamma and the opportunity giving may allow for the listener,
                                              who is, as most often is the case, of a lesser insight.

                                              Metta
                                              Jothiko







                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Dear Nina,
                                              > Thanks for the commentary information. The explanation doesn't
                                              seem to
                                              > fit the original sutta text - unless I'm misunderstanding it. My
                                              > interpretation was that one who gives thinking about how much they
                                              > have given (e.g. look at me, aren't I wonderful!) is not practicing
                                              > according to Dhamma. Whereas one who gives without thinking about
                                              the
                                              > measure, and where the recipient knows (i.e. it has an impact), is
                                              > doing so.
                                              > What do you think?
                                              > With metta,
                                              > John
                                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Dear Branislav and John,
                                              > > The PTS transl in the footnote refers to the commentary: < In
                                              > > perverted systems of teaching the giver should know how much he
                                              has
                                              > > to give. But in this true Dhamma the almsman must be contented
                                              if he
                                              > > gets little, and if he gets in excess he must use only what is
                                              > > necessary.>
                                              > > There is reference to S. II, 200, about giving and receiving.
                                              Someone
                                              > > who is not worthy to get alms from the families wants the others
                                              to
                                              > > give plenty and is vexed if they give not. But someone who is
                                              worthy
                                              > > is contented, also when they give not.
                                              > > Nina.
                                              > >
                                              > > Op 27-feb-2008, om 8:20 heeft Branislav Kovacevic het volgende
                                              > > geschreven:
                                              > >
                                              > > > 314. Bhikkhus, with a badly expounded Dhamma and discipline,
                                              the
                                              > > > measure of a gift should be known by the giver, not by the
                                              recipient.
                                              > > > For what reason? Because of the badly expounded nature of this
                                              Dhamma.
                                              > > > 315. Bhikkhus, with a well expounded Dhamma and discipline, the
                                              > > > measure of a gift should be known by the recipient, not by the
                                              giver.
                                              > > > For what reason? Because of the well-expounded nature of this
                                              Dhamma.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Here is the full Pali too (since you left some out):
                                              > > > 314. Durakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye daayakena mattaa
                                              > > > jaanitabbaa, no pa.tiggaahakena. Ta.m kissa hetu?
                                              Durakkhaatattaa,
                                              > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                                              > > > 315. Svaakkhaate, bhikkhave, dhammavinaye pa.tiggaahakena
                                              mattaa
                                              > > > jaanitabbaa, no daayakena. Ta.m kissa hetu? Svaakkhaatattaa,
                                              > > > bhikkhave, dhammassaa ti.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • joseph
                                              Dear friends While I agree with the general idea, The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the hindrance to the achievment of liberation.
                                              Message 22 of 27 , May 3, 2008
                                                Dear friends
                                                While I agree with the general idea,
                                                The Buddha explained that attachment to equanimity nay become the
                                                hindrance to the achievment of liberation.

                                                Nibbana is actually not equanimity, and it is nothing less of
                                                Nibbana that should be aspired for.
                                                it is the release of any desire, even that to abandon suffering.
                                                Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                                                brain space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words
                                                in the most conventional way.
                                                so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if you look at the
                                                definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not pessimistic or
                                                nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                                                the presence of wisdom is the reason, the support, the truth of
                                                Nibbana, and by that, any of these adverbs is rendered inadaquate.

                                                if it does not seem to make sense, remember that it is anna:
                                                of a different wisdom, a different kind of consciousness.

                                                Metta
                                                Jothiko




                                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "John Kelly" <palistudent@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hello Leo,
                                                >
                                                > No, quite definitely the first noble truth cannot be interpreted
                                                > simply as "life has suffering". This would clearly be just a
                                                > watering-down of what the Buddha is actually saying.
                                                >
                                                > From the Buddha's first discourse (Dhammacakkhappavattana Sutta)
                                                we have:
                                                > "Ida.m kho pana bhikkhave, dukkha.m ariyasacca.m: Jaati’pi
                                                dukkhaa,
                                                > jaraa’pi dukkhaa, vyaadhi’pi dukkho, mara.nampi dukkha.m.
                                                Appiyehi
                                                > sampayogo dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho. Yampiccha.m na labhati
                                                > tampi dukkha.m. Sa"nkhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa."
                                                > "Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is
                                                > suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is
                                                > suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation
                                                > from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is
                                                > suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are
                                                > suffering."
                                                >
                                                > The Buddha is not at all denying that there is happiness in life -
                                                > there is plenty - but it is essentially the fact that we cling to
                                                > whatever is pleasant that brings us suffering, because all is
                                                > impermanent. The Buddha exhorts us to develop equanimity with
                                                whatever
                                                > is pleasant or unpleasant. Then a byproduct is that our
                                                happinesses
                                                > will be greater, since we will just be in the present with them,
                                                and
                                                > not consciously or subconsciously creating suffering for ourselves
                                                by
                                                > clinging to that happiness and wanting it to last. Similarly our
                                                > pains in life will be lessened, because with equanimity again we
                                                > simply stay in the present with them and we eliminate all the
                                                mental
                                                > proliferation of thinking about our pain that intensifies our
                                                > suffering. Of course, this is all much easier said than done -
                                                because
                                                > of the roots of greed, aversion, and delusion that are within us.
                                                But
                                                > that's what the Buddhist practice is all about.
                                                >
                                                > I hope this is a little helpful.
                                                >
                                                > With metta,
                                                > John
                                                > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" <leoaive@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi
                                                > >
                                                > > I am not sure about correct translation of th First Noble Truth.
                                                > > In some cases it looks to me it is translated as: Life is
                                                suffereing.
                                                > > In other cases, there are Suttas, that tells about different
                                                happiness
                                                > > in life. So from that I can come to conclusion, that First Noble
                                                Truth
                                                > > shouls be: Lafe has suffering. (not life is suffering, or all
                                                suffering)
                                                > > I would really appreciate, if you would tell me if it can be
                                                translated
                                                > > like that: Life has suffering, from Pali language.
                                                > >
                                                > > With Metta
                                                > >
                                                > > Leo
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                                Bhante, your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar analysis to
                                                Message 23 of 27 , May 6, 2008
                                                  Bhante,

                                                  your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                                                  word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                                                  analysis to sukha? Thanks.


                                                  metta,
                                                  Yong Peng.

                                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:

                                                  Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual brain
                                                  space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                                                  most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble, if
                                                  you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                                                  pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                                                • Gunnar Gällmo
                                                  Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , May 6, 2008
                                                    Does anyone know what happened to the on-line version
                                                    of the Ven. Nyanaponikas German translation of the
                                                    Suttanipata? I used to find it at
                                                    http://www.palikanon.com/khuddaka/sn , but now I get a
                                                    message that "Looks like the page you're looking for
                                                    was moved or never existed". It did exist, so where
                                                    has it moved?

                                                    Gunnar


                                                    http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto


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                                                  • joseph
                                                    Dear Friends Specifically Kha is related to `one s environment (probably K.R.Norman),One s space . Maybe even relates to `Aura .the physical energy that
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , May 7, 2008
                                                      Dear Friends
                                                      Specifically Kha is related to `one's environment'(probably
                                                      K.R.Norman),One's space'. Maybe even relates to `Aura'.the physical
                                                      energy that surrounds the body.
                                                      While, funny enough. This is a reference to the mind, the may we
                                                      say, `non Physical brain'
                                                      Mana' the ignorant man constant thinking is by Comparing
                                                      himself with others, asmi mana is conceit and maana is measuring.
                                                      Du Manasa relates specifically to depression, which is only one facet
                                                      of Dhuka.

                                                      probably even NamaRupa may relate to the reality that is experienced
                                                      as Mind and Brain, since the body, and Physical reality, is truly the
                                                      experience related to the Physical brain, only by extention, we
                                                      think, or there is in this conditioned view of the body.
                                                      This is per se, when the Buddha says `There is a body' Atthi Kayo.
                                                      We are faced with a reality, undeniable experience.
                                                      So this is again an example of the Indian mind set. And the vital
                                                      necessity to see the
                                                      Circumstances of the lessons, much in the way a Sutta lesson, should
                                                      be seen at it's context, the wider, and the specific one.

                                                      any way I like to think about the logical way this highly idiomatic
                                                      language forms.
                                                      Based on simple, logical conventions of speech and common
                                                      understanding,
                                                      Often the Pali translation is difficult not only in grammatical
                                                      terms but possibly in deeper rooted convictions, maybe it boils down
                                                      too, eventually to our view of a `self',

                                                      It's a little beside the point, and may look pretentious and high,
                                                      but there this example Of the quantum mechanics Theory
                                                      Quantum mechanics taught us that there is no objective point of view,
                                                      no observer that is outside the system, it is, I think, easy to see
                                                      the Buddhist relevance of it, as the
                                                      `not self' characteristic of existence. Anatta.

                                                      Consciousness is a biological necessity and responds accordingly,
                                                      with the necessary self deceit and profit seeking.
                                                      No truth but seeing this very process.

                                                      The meaning of Nibbana is just this `stopping of the game', resting
                                                      from the universal laws of desire, hatred and delusion which push us
                                                      to participate in the formation of further actions, preparations and
                                                      intentions Sankhara.
                                                      This process-game' is based on our ignorance to the fact that there
                                                      is no entity, point of view, absolute reality which is `Me'

                                                      Our binding action starts by desire, longing, which, because of
                                                      ignorance make us believe in the possibility of real satisfaction,
                                                      real realization in this world or beyond it, as religious
                                                      gratification.

                                                      Now this is a dangerous point and must it be understood that there is
                                                      no place for nihilism, destructive psychological tendencies and so
                                                      on, it is simply often beyond our capacity to face the void, the
                                                      emotional emptiness which is the basic nature of reality, existence,
                                                      the world.
                                                      so we often run, with the encouragement of an ego mental protection,
                                                      in to illusion, a religion , taking side on order to belong..

                                                      materialism too is making for a philosophy, a belief, even the
                                                      Atheist.
                                                      attachment to logic, a view of a future hope of success.
                                                      science, though taking the quantum opportuinity per se, is not
                                                      manifesting a belief in the passive freedom that is opened up, it
                                                      cannot function that way, it remains the tool of progress and greed.

                                                      This is not bad; it's actually a social reality.
                                                      But truth can be experienced and realized, it may need training, as
                                                      it rises only at the space that is created by inner quietude,
                                                      serenity, peacefulness.
                                                      I think the use of the word `space' is most satisfactory.

                                                      Su Kha is happiness, mental exhilaration that contains physical or
                                                      mental feeling.
                                                      Both can be experienced as a bodily experience.
                                                      But the duality su/du
                                                      may also relate to `the bad path' the un wholesome way which stands
                                                      in relation to the Eight fold path (see M.N. 117).
                                                      While here the idea of Samma is crucial.

                                                      Nibbana, by reality and definition, is `the cessation of the causes
                                                      of the bad' The simple denial of the cause, not `happy or `sad'.

                                                      It relates to a mind attitude, feeling, reality circumstances and
                                                      above all, to rebirth, re enactment of existence in illusion, life.

                                                      Equanimity is quite close, but it lacks the Quantum! leap of the
                                                      light which has a quality of Metta, the active avoidance of
                                                      attachment, which , in relation to a 'self' is 'other' Anna.

                                                      `Since Nibbana exists, the way to develop it is the only wisdom'.
                                                      Hence Buddhism,
                                                      but simply, understanding this Can be, must be, implemented as part
                                                      of any world view,
                                                      it's easy to see the case above as relating to one worldly way, but
                                                      religion, even in a
                                                      clearer fashion should be a base for the Dhamma.
                                                      the Buddha himself has accepted the old Indian gods.
                                                      the Tibetans , too, has Idam, a personal god, a protector of the
                                                      search for the Dhamma.
                                                      .Sri lankan have gods to refer to when trouble (the chief one is
                                                      Kataragama, the residence, the name of the town here)
                                                      The Jewish Shekhina' is similar, I think it is presence', or the
                                                      Indian concept of Shakti, the power, presence, manifestation, female
                                                      side of the various gods.
                                                      This is advanced theology, too much actually.
                                                      It may be any chosen god of belief, why not?

                                                      But a belief that negates the quantum is a wrong view which lead to
                                                      suffering…
                                                      No god is this eternal point, the causeless cause, whatever the
                                                      religious imaginations like to make of their traditional, past based
                                                      yearnings.

                                                      Now there is the presence of the path, that means the right way.
                                                      The preliminary thought may be connected to belief, faith, which is a
                                                      good place to start, but not necessarily, not, as we show, as a
                                                      matter of taking sides, but a personal,
                                                      Lonely often, experience of the consequences of truth,

                                                      Sorry, I was writing a sermon when I saw the letter, so it all came
                                                      out like that..
                                                      I meant to elaborate more about the linguistic aspect, as you see,
                                                      amateurism may sometimes be an advantage.

                                                      I also find, in order to fully engulf some unnecessary conventions,
                                                      it may be helpful to
                                                      See some ideas of later Buddhist schools, and even of the Indian
                                                      sphere.

                                                      Metta
                                                      Jothiko


                                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Bhante,
                                                      >
                                                      > your analysis of dukkha is interesting. I have never understood the
                                                      > word that way. Can you elaborate more, and can we apply similar
                                                      > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > metta,
                                                      > Yong Peng.
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, joseph wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Du Kha actually means bad space, it is in relation to the actual
                                                      brain
                                                      > space, the embodiment of a personal mind, and I use the words in the
                                                      > most conventional way. so actually, it simply means bad, trouble,
                                                      if
                                                      > you look at the definition, it is simply that life is trouble, not
                                                      > pessimistic or nihilistic, the understanding is such.
                                                      >
                                                    • joseph
                                                      ... can we apply similar ... Dear friends Su = good, positive Kha = space, presence. the idiom of positive space can be seen as three fold: amisa sukha -
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , May 9, 2008
                                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        can we apply similar
                                                        > analysis to sukha? Thanks.
                                                        >
                                                        Dear friends
                                                        Su = good, positive
                                                        Kha = space, presence.
                                                        the idiom of 'positive space' can be seen as three fold:

                                                        amisa sukha - physical-emotional bliss, an ingredient of the first
                                                        jhana, where body and bliss are, like a sponge 'fully saturated with
                                                        water'.

                                                        niramisa sukha - mental emotional happiness, of the third jhana,
                                                        where equanimity which is 'inspection from a high point', gives the
                                                        image of lotus flowers of various colors, fully immersed in water.

                                                        sukha = satisfaction, finding fulfilment.
                                                        hence 'kama sukalika' = satisfaction with the sphere of the senses.
                                                        'sukha vipasana' = satisfaction with the thoughtful inquiry.
                                                        (the dry aspect is also in relation to the duality, the mnaturity of
                                                        the wood that can be burned
                                                        'nibbana paramam sukham = cessation is the satisfaction of
                                                        (attaining)the beyond'.

                                                        The MahaArahat Venerable Sariputta explains that Nibbana is happiness
                                                        exactly because it is devoid of feelings.

                                                        Metta
                                                        Jothiko
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