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Problem with Warder Chapter 9

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  • natalie_indeed
    Hello all, I am having trouble with Warder s English to Pali exercise in chapter 9. The sentence is: Taking a garland they went to the hall. I rendered it
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 29, 2008
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      Hello all,
      I am having trouble with Warder's English to Pali exercise in chapter
      9. The sentence is: "Taking a garland they went to the hall."
      I rendered it thus: "maalaa harantaa saala.m apakammimsu."
      My answer key says this: "maala.m aadaaya yena saalaa ten'
      upasa.mkamimsu."

      I am soooo confused.
      1. Doesn't this say, "having taken" (aadaaya) rather than "taking"? (I
      used harati but made it a present participle, matching it to maalaa in
      gender, number, and case. Isn't that what I was supposed to do?)
      2. Why is "maala.m" in second case instead of first?
      3. What's up with the "yena" and "tena"? These haven't even been
      introduced in the book yet as a pair!
      4. Why is "saalaa" in first case? Shouldn't it be in second case
      because it is the recipient of the action?

      Please pardon my dumb-osity. I thought having a year of Sanskrit would
      make learning Pali easy, but I stink as much at Pali as I do at
      Sanskrit. Hmmph. Anyway, any help would be very appreciated.

      Kindness,
      Natalie
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Natalie, ... Nina: A gerund denotes several actions done by one agent. Sometimes we translate: he took... and went... It sounds heavy to translate:
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 30, 2008
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        Dear Natalie,
        Op 30-jan-2008, om 6:24 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:

        > 9. The sentence is: "Taking a garland they went to the hall."
        > I rendered it thus: "maalaa harantaa saala.m apakammimsu."
        > My answer key says this: "maala.m aadaaya yena saalaa ten'
        > upasa.mkamimsu."
        >
        > I am soooo confused.
        > 1. Doesn't this say, "having taken" (aadaaya) rather than "taking"? (I
        > used harati but made it a present participle, matching it to maalaa in
        > gender, number, and case. Isn't that what I was supposed to do?)
        -------
        Nina: A gerund denotes several actions done by one agent. Sometimes
        we translate: he took... and went... It sounds heavy to translate:
        having... So, one can also say: taking...

        > N: 2. Why is "maala.m" in second case instead of first?
        ---------
        Nina: it is accusative, a patient. They take the garland.
        -------
        > N: 3. What's up with the "yena" and "tena"? These haven't even been
        > introduced in the book yet as a pair!
        ------
        Nina: instrumental, denoting direction. lesson 8. In pali you find
        this pair frequently, and the relative comes first. Where--there. It
        can be untranslated. Very useful to remember.

        > N: 4. Why is "saalaa" in first case? Shouldn't it be in second case
        > because it is the recipient of the action?
        ------
        Nina: Yes, going to a place, I would expect an accusative. If it is
        plural it can be an accusative (you call it second case).

        Very good questions, I enjoy these. Please continue. When you ask we
        have to look up and that is useful.
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        Natalie, Every language has its own idiom (like each person his personality). Although word for word (literal) translation helps to learn the vocabulary, this
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 30, 2008
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          Natalie,

          Every language has its own idiom (like each person his personality).
          Although word for word (literal) translation helps to learn the vocabulary,
          this does not make sense of the import or meaning of the passage.

          In translation, we must first understand the sense of the passage. It is
          this sense that we render into English, not the Pali words per se.
          Academic scholar however would often do just this, which they claim
          would be true to the letter.

          However, practitioners who translate want to know what the Buddha or
          the early monks intended to say through the forest of Pal words. This
          will take some time of course.

          There is the "middle way" in translation: we translate the sense, yet
          try to reflect the beauty of the Pali form. Yes, not easy, that is why so
          many people are trying. You can say that Buddhism has become a
          translating religion, where people are beginning to trasslate the sacred
          texts for themselves! Wow: talking of drinking water at the source.

          Anyway, please don't be discouraged. We have to begin somewhere.
          Learning Pali is like breathing: you keep on doing to until you become
          relaxed with it. Accept it as a life long process if you aim is to know
          the Buddha Word (that is the real aim of Pali).

          To know Pali simple as Pali, a college course would be sufficient. To learn
          Pali for self-liberation is more fun, even if we do not get paid for it.

          I try not to look at Pali as grammar, but as living words sounds coming from
          the Buddha and the early saints.

          With metta,

          Piya


          On Jan 30, 2008 10:33 PM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

          > Dear Natalie,
          > Op 30-jan-2008, om 6:24 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:
          > > N: 3. What's up with the "yena" and "tena"? These haven't even been
          > > introduced in the book yet as a pair!
          > ------
          > Nina: instrumental, denoting direction. lesson 8. In pali you find
          > this pair frequently, and the relative comes first. Where--there. It
          > can be untranslated. Very useful to remember.
          >












          Also this is an example of a correlative sentence: very Pali. In Pali, we
          simply render it by regarding the Ya and Ta as simply "the" in most cases,
          or disregard them.

          For example,

          yena bhagavaa ten'upasa.nkami = (lit) where the Blessed One was, he
          approached there.
          Idiomatic English: "He went up to (or approached) the Blessed One."

          Metta,

          Piya Tan


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • natalie_indeed
          Thank you so much Nina! Everything was clarified by your comments, except for a few lingering questions that I hope you don t mind if I ask: If I were to
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 30, 2008
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            Thank you so much Nina! Everything was clarified by your comments,
            except for a few lingering questions that I hope you don't mind if I ask:

            If I were to translate "taking" as a present participle in this
            sentence instead of a gerund, would "maala.m haranta.m" have been correct?

            Also, I still don't really understand why the feminine singular
            nominative was used (saalaa) rather than the singular accusative
            [saala.m], which is what I would expect when going to a place.

            Here's the sentence again: "maala.m aadaaya yena saalaa ten'
            upasa.mkamimsu."

            I realize now that yena and tena are used quite differently in Pali
            than in Sanskrit! Poo.

            Piya, yes, I'm glad that Pali study is available to those who want to
            study the Dhamma. I myself am a PhD student in anthropology/religious
            studies who studies Buddhism in the U.S., particularly among Sri
            Lankan Americans. I actually have to pass a Pali language competency
            exam, so I'm pretty motivated to understand the minutia of Pali
            grammar, even if I stink at it!

            Thank you again, and wishing you happiness,
            Natalie
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Piya, thank you very much. Thus this solves the question why saalaa is nominative. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 30, 2008
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              Dear Piya,
              thank you very much. Thus this solves the question why saalaa is
              nominative.
              Nina.
              Op 30-jan-2008, om 16:48 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

              > For example,
              >
              > yena bhagavaa ten'upasa.nkami = (lit) where the Blessed One was, he
              > approached there.
              > Idiomatic English: "He went up to (or approached) the Blessed One."



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Piya Tan
              Natalie, Decades back I had a great interest in anthropology and sociology of religion, which benefitted me in understanding the social working of religion.
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 30, 2008
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                Natalie,

                Decades back I had a great interest in anthropology and sociology of
                religion, which
                benefitted me in understanding the social working of religion.

                How do anthropologists better the lives of those whom they study? I was once
                told
                that anthopology was introduced by the British colonialists to study the
                minds and
                ways of the natives so that they can be better controlled and manipulated
                (in a sort
                of behaviorist manner).

                Sadly many of the anthopologists I have met have not impressed me. They look
                at
                us simply as data or specimen for a good thesis or book, and earn their pay
                package.

                There was one of them attached to the National University of Singapore, who
                after
                receiving a complete CD of my works, simply said goodbye to me without even
                a
                chance for some discussion. I think he was doing some field work in Myanmar.

                Do anthopologists still look at their subject from a third-person viewpoint
                like in the
                colonial days?

                Please take my comments as from someone who passionately believes education
                is
                e-ducere, bringing the good out of people.

                With metta,

                Piya


                On Jan 31, 2008 12:22 AM, natalie_indeed <natalie_indeed@...> wrote:

                > Thank you so much Nina! Everything was clarified by your comments,
                > except for a few lingering questions that I hope you don't mind if I ask:
                >
                > If I were to translate "taking" as a present participle in this
                > sentence instead of a gerund, would "maala.m haranta.m" have been correct?
                >
                > Also, I still don't really understand why the feminine singular
                > nominative was used (saalaa) rather than the singular accusative
                > [saala.m], which is what I would expect when going to a place.
                >
                > Here's the sentence again: "maala.m aadaaya yena saalaa ten'
                > upasa.mkamimsu."
                >
                > I realize now that yena and tena are used quite differently in Pali
                > than in Sanskrit! Poo.
                >
                > Piya, yes, I'm glad that Pali study is available to those who want to
                > study the Dhamma. I myself am a PhD student in anthropology/religious
                > studies who studies Buddhism in the U.S., particularly among Sri
                > Lankan Americans. I actually have to pass a Pali language competency
                > exam, so I'm pretty motivated to understand the minutia of Pali
                > grammar, even if I stink at it!
                >
                > Thank you again, and wishing you happiness,
                > Natalie
                >
                >
                >



                --
                The Minding Centre
                Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                Singapore 650644
                Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • natalie_indeed
                Thank you for your lovely post, Piya, I agree wholeheartedly: anthropologists have intentionally exploited people--they were also used in the Vietnam War to
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 30, 2008
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                  Thank you for your lovely post, Piya,

                  I agree wholeheartedly: anthropologists have intentionally exploited
                  people--they were also used in the Vietnam War to locate people to
                  bomb. Western anthropology has, indeed, a VERY dirty history. But
                  then, because anthropologists are people, they are inevitably as
                  flawed and unenlightened as anyone else. I guess everyone,
                  anthropologists included (even the "bad" ones), are all trying their
                  best. May they have peace and kindness in their hearts/minds.

                  I have in fact been ruminating a great deal over why I do what I do.
                  Because cultivating peace in myself and the world is very important to
                  me, maybe the most important thing to me, I care about the purpose and
                  the results of my work. I focused my Master's thesis on resolving a
                  conflict in a local Thien sangha by providing a forum (through
                  interviews & fieldwork) in which people could speak without fear of
                  retribution and without being interrupted or increasing hostility, and
                  I'm pretty proud of the results (healing and forgiveness--what could
                  be more satisfying?). My PhD work with the Sri Lankan American sangha
                  focuses on the problem of how to best support the sangha (both lay and
                  monastic) so it can grow & take root here and benefit people. I've
                  studied a number of American Buddhist communities facing similar
                  problems of attrition, and I'd like to provide information to the
                  Lankan American sangha that it can use to address the problem of
                  adapting to a new cultural context without "assimilating" the Dhamma
                  too much.

                  So I'd like to think there's a place for people like me, a Buddh-ish
                  anthropologist, in the work of compassion, too! Like you say, studying
                  for studying's sake can be very harsh, egotistical, and deluded, and I
                  try my best to avoid it. But the truth is that I am not particularly
                  "impressive," as you put it. I'm just some silly, deluded being doing
                  her best! :P

                  With much metta, and much silliness,
                  Natalie

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Piya Tan" <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Natalie,
                  >
                  > Decades back I had a great interest in anthropology and sociology of
                  > religion, which
                  > benefitted me in understanding the social working of religion.
                  >
                  > How do anthropologists better the lives of those whom they study? I
                  was once
                  > told
                  > that anthopology was introduced by the British colonialists to study the
                  > minds and
                  > ways of the natives so that they can be better controlled and
                  manipulated
                  > (in a sort
                  > of behaviorist manner).
                  >
                  > Sadly many of the anthopologists I have met have not impressed me.
                  They look
                  > at
                  > us simply as data or specimen for a good thesis or book, and earn
                  their pay
                  > package.
                  >
                  > There was one of them attached to the National University of
                  Singapore, who
                  > after
                  > receiving a complete CD of my works, simply said goodbye to me
                  without even
                  > a
                  > chance for some discussion. I think he was doing some field work in
                  Myanmar.
                  >
                  > Do anthopologists still look at their subject from a third-person
                  viewpoint
                  > like in the
                  > colonial days?
                  >
                  > Please take my comments as from someone who passionately believes
                  education
                  > is
                  > e-ducere, bringing the good out of people.
                  >
                  > With metta,
                  >
                  > Piya
                  >
                  >
                  > On Jan 31, 2008 12:22 AM, natalie_indeed <natalie_indeed@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thank you so much Nina! Everything was clarified by your comments,
                  > > except for a few lingering questions that I hope you don't mind if
                  I ask:
                  > >
                  > > If I were to translate "taking" as a present participle in this
                  > > sentence instead of a gerund, would "maala.m haranta.m" have been
                  correct?
                  > >
                  > > Also, I still don't really understand why the feminine singular
                  > > nominative was used (saalaa) rather than the singular accusative
                  > > [saala.m], which is what I would expect when going to a place.
                  > >
                  > > Here's the sentence again: "maala.m aadaaya yena saalaa ten'
                  > > upasa.mkamimsu."
                  > >
                  > > I realize now that yena and tena are used quite differently in Pali
                  > > than in Sanskrit! Poo.
                  > >
                  > > Piya, yes, I'm glad that Pali study is available to those who want to
                  > > study the Dhamma. I myself am a PhD student in anthropology/religious
                  > > studies who studies Buddhism in the U.S., particularly among Sri
                  > > Lankan Americans. I actually have to pass a Pali language competency
                  > > exam, so I'm pretty motivated to understand the minutia of Pali
                  > > grammar, even if I stink at it!
                  > >
                  > > Thank you again, and wishing you happiness,
                  > > Natalie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > The Minding Centre
                  > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                  > Singapore 650644
                  > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Natalie, ... Nina: It needs the plural: harantaa. The verb has the pural: they went... See Warder, lesson 8. In the back there is a grammatical index that
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 31, 2008
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                    Dear Natalie,
                    Op 30-jan-2008, om 17:22 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:

                    > If I were to translate "taking" as a present participle in this
                    > sentence instead of a gerund, would "maala.m haranta.m" have been
                    > correct?
                    ------
                    Nina: It needs the plural: harantaa. The verb has the pural: they
                    went...
                    See Warder, lesson 8.
                    In the back there is a grammatical index that is useful. You can look
                    up: present particip.
                    ------------
                    >
                    > N: Also, I still don't really understand why the feminine singular
                    > nominative was used (saalaa) rather than the singular accusative
                    > [saala.m], which is what I would expect when going to a place.
                    >
                    > Here's the sentence again: "maala.m aadaaya yena saalaa ten'
                    > upasa.mkamimsu."
                    -------
                    Nina: Piya solved this one with the sentence: he went where the Lord
                    was. Because of the yena... tena.. I think it has to be nominative.
                    They went where the sala was.
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • DC Wijeratna
                    Yena bhagavaa tena upas.nkami.msu. This is the common form of relative construction in Paali. See Lesson 12, pg 70 and p. 291 Warder. A more readable and a
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 31, 2008
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                      Yena bhagavaa tena upas.nkami.msu.

                      This is the common form of relative construction in Paali.
                      See Lesson 12, pg 70 and p. 291 Warder.

                      A more readable and a simpler account is in A New Course in Paali. James W.Gair and W.S.Karunatilaka--it is called correlative construction there. Yena...Tena is an idiomatic form. The object is in the nominative.

                      D. G. D. C. Wijeratna




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                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Dear Nathalie, ... Nina: Jim, a Pali scholar on our list, wrote to me:
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 1, 2008
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                        Dear Nathalie,
                        Op 30-jan-2008, om 6:24 heeft natalie_indeed het volgende geschreven:

                        > I am having trouble with Warder's English to Pali exercise in chapter
                        > 9. The sentence is: "Taking a garland they went to the hall."
                        > I rendered it thus: "maalaa harantaa saala.m apakammimsu."
                        > My answer key says this: "maala.m aadaaya yena saalaa ten'
                        > upasa.mkamimsu."
                        --------
                        Nina: Jim, a Pali scholar on our list, wrote to me:
                        <I was looking into Natalie's question about 'yena saalaa tena...'
                        According
                        to Sp I 128, there is another interpretation besides yattha saalaa
                        tattha. .
                        . that could apply, i.e., yena kaara.nena saalaa upasa"nkamitabbaa, tena
                        kaara.nena upasa"nkami.msu = lit. for whatever reason the hall is to be
                        gone to, for that reason they went.>
                        Sp. is Saaratthappakaasinii, the Co. to the Kindred Sayings.

                        upasa"nkamitabbaa is a passive form, note the ending: abbaa. Thus,
                        the subject of it is nominative. kaara.na is reason or cause.
                        Nina.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Natalie
                        Dear Sir, Thank you so very much! This finally makes sense! With metta, Natalie DC Wijeratna wrote: Yena
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 1, 2008
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                          Dear Sir,

                          Thank you so very much! This finally makes sense!

                          With metta,
                          Natalie

                          DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote: Yena bhagavaa tena upas.nkami.msu.

                          This is the common form of relative construction in Paali.
                          See Lesson 12, pg 70 and p. 291 Warder.

                          A more readable and a simpler account is in A New Course in Paali. James W.Gair and W.S.Karunatilaka--it is called correlative construction there. Yena...Tena is an idiomatic form. The object is in the nominative.

                          D. G. D. C. Wijeratna

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