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Re: [Pali] paTichcha samuppAda

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  • DC Wijeratna
    To: A. Siddharta, This refers to your question: Could someone tell me if there is a formulation saying Everything arises dependent on conditions , for
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 12, 2007
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      To: A. Siddharta,

      This refers to your question: "Could someone tell me if there is a formulation saying "Everything
      arises dependent on conditions", for example, like "sabbE dhammA paTichcha samuppanna" in the Canon."
      ..................
      I am not aware of a formulation like "sabbE dhammA ..." but there is the formulation "sabbe dhammaa anattaati"
      Anatta implies that they are all pa.ticca samuppanna.
      It is also necessary to understand the difference between "pa.ticcasamuppanna dhammaa" and "pa.ticcasamuppaada". The first is: dependently-arisen dhammas; and the second is: dependent origination, "avijjaa-paccayaa ..." It explains the arising (samudaya) of the dukkhakkhanda (aggregate of dukkha) and its cessation (nirodha). So one can take the DO itself says "everything arises dependent on conditions."
      In mahaahatthipadopamasutta, [MN i. 191] you get this "yo pa.ticcasamuppaada.m passati so dhamma.m passati" and viceversa. Thus pa.ticcasmuppaada equals dhamma.


      D. G. D. C. Wijeratna


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    • Dhivan Thomas Jones
      Dear Nina, Many thanks for your reply to the message about pa.ticca samuppaada posted by A. Siddhartha. Could you provide any references in the Pali canon for
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 13, 2007
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        Dear Nina,

        Many thanks for your reply to the message about pa.ticca samuppaada
        posted by A. Siddhartha. Could you provide any references in the Pali
        canon for the view that there are some dhammas (you mention the
        lokuttara cittas) which are not subject to pa.ticca samuppaada? I am
        investigating this area at present, and hence my interest. By way of
        contrast, I would mention that in the Upanisa Sutta (Sa.myutta Nikaya
        12:23) dhammas from pamojja to aasavakhaayañaana are said to arise in
        a causally conditioned sequence, and Bhikkhu Bodhi in his essay
        'Transcendental Dependent Arising', concerned with this sutta, refers
        to the Nettipakarana for the phrase 'lokuttara pa.ticca samuppaada'. I
        have not looked up this reference yet, but I thought I would ask you
        about any references you might know of while the message is relatively
        new here.

        Yours with best wishes
        Dhivan
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Dhivan, Op 13-dec-2007, om 9:38 heeft Dhivan Thomas Jones het volgende ... N: As we study the pa.ticca samuppaada in the Visuddhimagga (Path of
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 17, 2007
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          Dear Dhivan,
          Op 13-dec-2007, om 9:38 heeft Dhivan Thomas Jones het volgende
          geschreven:

          > Could you provide any references in the Pali
          > canon for the view that there are some dhammas (you mention the
          > lokuttara cittas) which are not subject to pa.ticca samuppaada?
          --------
          N: As we study the pa.ticca samuppaada in the Visuddhimagga (Path of
          Purification) Ch XVII, the conditional arising of the dhammas is
          given that keep us in samsara. This is the same as is given in most
          suttas.
          However, the Upanisa sutta teaches another aspect.
          -------

          > Dh: By way of
          > contrast, I would mention that in the Upanisa Sutta (Sa.myutta Nikaya
          > 12:23) dhammas from pamojja to aasavakhaayañaana are said to arise in
          > a causally conditioned sequence, and Bhikkhu Bodhi in his essay
          > 'Transcendental Dependent Arising', concerned with this sutta, refers
          > to the Nettipakarana for the phrase 'lokuttara pa.ticca samuppaada'.
          -------
          N: This is correct. I have the book, BPS Kandy.
          There is a turning point in the sequence of conditions leading to
          rebirth. The understanding of dukkha leads to confidence (saddhaa),
          and this to other conditions, leading to liberation from the cycle of
          birth and death.
          The Netti quotes the paraayana (Sutta Nipaata):
          <Whatever streams are in the world,
          Ajita' the Blessed One said
          'They are shut off by mindfulness;
          The streams' restraint I tell, whereby
          They can be sealed, is understanding.>

          The magga pa~n~naa of the arahat eradicates ignorance completely and
          then there will be the end of the cycle.
          Nina.




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        • Dhivan Thomas Jones
          Dear Nina, Thanks for your very helpful reply to my question. I especially appreciated the quotation from the Paraayana towards the end, as this makes clearer
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 17, 2007
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            Dear Nina,

            Thanks for your very helpful reply to my question. I especially
            appreciated the quotation from the Paraayana towards the end, as this
            makes clearer to me the meaning of saddhaa in the Upanisa Sutta - that
            it is connected to understanding of dukkha and to mindfulness.
            However, you did not give any references to the lokuttara cittas that
            I asked about. Is this more of an Abhidhamma concept I wonder?

            With best wishes
            Dhivan
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Dhivan, Op 17-dec-2007, om 18:24 heeft Dhivan Thomas Jones het volgende ... N: Your original question:
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 18, 2007
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              Dear Dhivan,
              Op 17-dec-2007, om 18:24 heeft Dhivan Thomas Jones het volgende
              geschreven:

              > I especially
              > appreciated the quotation from the Paraayana towards the end, as this
              > makes clearer to me the meaning of saddhaa in the Upanisa Sutta - that
              > it is connected to understanding of dukkha and to mindfulness.
              > However, you did not give any references to the lokuttara cittas that
              > I asked about. Is this more of an Abhidhamma concept I wonder?
              ----------
              N: Your original question: <Could you provide any references in the Pali
              canon for the view that there are some dhammas (you mention the
              lokuttara cittas) which are not subject to pa.ticca samuppaada? >

              The Co to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Atthasaalinii, (II,
              Part VIII) compares the building up of the conditions for samsara
              with the building up of a stockade. The lokuttara cittas
              (transcendental jhaanas) are like the knocking it down.
              <But this is, even as , when a man having heaped up a stockade
              eighteen cubits high, another man taking a large hammar were to go on
              knocking down and demolishing what had been heaped up. So it sets
              about pulling down and demolishing decease and rebirth heaped up by
              the three-planed moral consciousness, by bringing about a deficiency
              in the causes thereof; hence it is 'leading to dispersion for the
              putting away of [wrong] views.>

              Even kusala that is kaamaavacaara, ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana (of
              the three planes of citta) by itself does not lead to the end of the
              cycle. Only pa~n~naa developed to the stage of lokuttara, magga-
              pa~n~naa can achieve this.
              The above quote shows that lokuttara cittas are leading out of samsaara.
              The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga, second book of the abhidhamma) Ch
              6, treats the pa.ticca samuppaada also in the same way as most
              suttas and as the Visuddhimagga, thus it deals with the conditions
              for being in the cycle. Its Co. , the Sammohavinodanii, Dispeller of
              Delusion, p. 262, gives at the end an exhortation to develop the way
              leading out of it:
              <[Therefore] in accordance with the Order
              Consisting of Competency-Learning-Reflection-Practice
              The wise act always in regard thereto
              for there is nothing other than that which more needs to be done.>

              *******
              Nina.



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            • Lennart Lopin
              Hi Siddhartha, Maybe this helps: Another aspect of the same thing, in addition to what has al­ready been said about *nissaya*, is the understanding of the
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 19, 2007
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                Hi Siddhartha,

                Maybe this helps:

                "Another aspect of the same thing, in addition to what has al­ready been
                said about *nissaya*, is the understanding of the relat­edness of this to
                that, *idappaccayatā*,* * implicit in the law of de­pendent arising. In
                fact, we began our discussion by highlight­ing the significance of the term
                *idappaccayatā*.[21]
                <http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/nibbana04.htm#_edn21>The basic
                prin­ci­ple involved, is itself often called
                *paṭicca samuppāda*. "This being, this comes to be, with the arising of
                this, this arises. This not being, this does not come to be. With the
                cessation of this, this ceases."

                see also:
                http://www.nibbanam.com/nibbana_sermon4e.htm
                and
                http://www.nibbanam.com/nibbana_sermon3e.htm

                mettaya,
                Lennart


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