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Re: AN2.1.5 Upa~n~naata Sutta (1/1)

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  • Noah Yuttadhammo
    Sorry, that last should probably be: upasampajja - having come to (upa) fully (sam) attain (pad)
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 19, 2007
      Sorry, that last should probably be:

      upasampajja - having come to (upa) fully (sam) attain (pad)
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng, thank you very much for all the trouble you took with this sutta. I have a few suggestions. ... Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 19, 2007
        Dear Yong Peng,
        thank you very much for all the trouble you took with this sutta.
        I have a few suggestions.
        ------
        Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m upa~n~naasi.m - yaa ca
        asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu
        -------
        Y.P.: asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu :which (are) discontentment
        with good states, and free of obstruction in effort.

        -------

        N: discontentment seems negative. The meaning is: kusala is never
        enough and he realises this . Suggestion: not being complacent with
        the good already performed.

        ---------

        Y.P.: Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami : O monks, even I
        strive (for) non-hindrance -

        ------

        N: suggested: free from any restriction, I strive thus:

        (The striving pertains to what follows, not to the non-hindrance. The
        non-hindrance tells us something about the way he strives).

        ---------

        Y.P.: kaama.m taco ca nhaaru'...As it shall be, may the skin, tendon
        and bone remains,

        -------

        N: nhaaru or: nahaaru.

        PTS has: (Kama.m)Gladly would I have...

        PTS : avasissatu, this is imperative of a verb. instead of a
        substantive the remains. Instead of :may they remain: may they wither
        (as PTS translation). Remain sounds strange to me.

        --------

        Y.P.: may flesh and
        blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
        manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
        will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

        -------

        N: san.thaana.m: position, establishment, firmness, steadfastness.

        I would turn the sentence around: ya.m ta.m purisathaamena
        purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa
        viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti:

        so that I will be steadfast in endeavour with heroic strength, vigour
        and energy in order to attain what has not been attained yet. (This
        is a free translation of pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa)

        *******



        Y.P.:O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
        unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

        ------

        N: Another option: Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa
        sambodhi:
        Therefore, monks, my awakening is attained with earnestness...

        ---------

        Y.P.:Monks, even if you would strive (for) non-hindrance -

        N: Monks, if you also would strive without restriction...
        ('even if' is different, it means: although...)
        -------

        N: pariyosaana: also: end, perfection, stands for arahatship.
        Suggestion: final goal, fulfilment.

        samadeva: sammaa +eva: rightly indeed.

        Upasampajja: gerund. Having attained. Abhi~n~naa: from
        abhijhaanaati.PTS gives here: saya.m abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa. Thus
        we have two gerunds here.

        Now I go first to the end: the three gerunds and the verb:

        tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva
        agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
        tadanuttara.m - brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme
        saya.mabhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.

        ------
        O monks, you too, after a short time, will dwell, after having
        thoroughly known for yourselves, realised and accomplished in this
        very life that unsurpassable fulfilment of the brahma life for the
        sake of which those of high birth rightly leave home for the homeless
        life.

        ----

        Eva~nhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabban"ti.


        Y.P.:Surely so, O monks, (it) should be learned by you."

        ------

        N: Thus, monks, should you train yourselves.

        Nina.














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      • Nina van Gorkom
        Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo, I am sorry, I did not see your contribution when I started to look at the sutta. Otherwise I would have acknowledged it. Thank
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 20, 2007
          Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo,
          I am sorry, I did not see your contribution when I started to look at
          the sutta. Otherwise I would have acknowledged it.
          Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.
          Maybe I need more examples.
          With respect,
          Nina.
          Op 19-nov-2007, om 8:42 heeft Noah Yuttadhammo het volgende geschreven:

          > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
          >
          > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
          > "came to know"
          >
          > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
          > > non-obstruction, free effort.
          >
          > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
          > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
          > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
          > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
          > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
          > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
          >
          > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Noah Yuttadhammo
          Dear Nina, ... Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I ve never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 20, 2007
            Dear Nina,

            > Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.

            Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja = kammasmaa jaato. Bhaava tadhita is the most common, I think, replacing the word bhaava with suffixes tta, .nya, ttana, taa, .n, or ka.n (the .n is theoretical, it simply diighas the root vowel and is dropped).

            Best Wishes,

            Yuttadhammo

            > > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
            > >
            > > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
            > > "came to know"
            > >
            > > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
            > > > non-obstruction, free effort.
            > >
            > > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
            > > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
            > > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
            > > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
            > > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
            > > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
            > >
            > > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo, Thank you very much for the explanation. With respect, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 21, 2007
              Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo,
              Thank you very much for the explanation.
              With respect,
              Nina.

              Op 21-nov-2007, om 0:13 heeft Noah Yuttadhammo het volgende geschreven:

              > Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that
              > I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly,
              > it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja =
              > kammasmaa jaato.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • johnny pruitt
              Dear Noah Yuttadhammo, Thanks for the clarification on the term Tadhita. I never knoew about this. Does -iko and -imo fit into this class of suffixes. Where
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 22, 2007
                Dear Noah Yuttadhammo,
                Thanks for the clarification on the term Tadhita. I never knoew about this. Does -iko and -imo fit into this class of suffixes. Where could I find more information about these suffixes?

                Thanks John

                Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@...> wrote:
                Dear Nina,

                > Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.

                Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja = kammasmaa jaato. Bhaava tadhita is the most common, I think, replacing the word bhaava with suffixes tta, .nya, ttana, taa, .n, or ka.n (the .n is theoretical, it simply diighas the root vowel and is dropped).

                Best Wishes,

                Yuttadhammo

                > > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
                > >
                > > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
                > > "came to know"
                > >
                > > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
                > > > non-obstruction, free effort.
                > >
                > > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
                > > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
                > > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
                > > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
                > > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
                > > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
                > >
                > > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





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              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, allow me to reply to yours in parts. ... bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier ... bhante, thanks for
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 24, 2007
                  Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

                  allow me to reply to yours in parts.

                  > > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
                  > > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
                  > > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
                  > >
                  > > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
                  > > non-restriction, free action.
                  >
                  > I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the
                  bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier
                  of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:
                  >
                  > "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"
                  >
                  > but I may be wrong :)

                  bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                  difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                  really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                  adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                  simplified sentence:

                  Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.



                  > > 'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire
                  > > upasussatu ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena
                  > > purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m
                  > > apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti.
                  > > as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
                  > > may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood /
                  > > which / that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with
                  > > manly energy / has to be attained / not / that / having attained /
                  > > of vigour / nature / will become
                  > > 'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh
                  > > and blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be
                  > > attained with manly strength, vigour and energy, having not
                  > > attained that, (one) will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

                  > 'Gladly, may skin, tendon and bone be all that remains*, may flesh
                  and blood in the body dry up. (That form)** will be the form of one
                  who,*** not having attained those (virtues) which are such as may be
                  attained with manly strength, vigour and energy,**** has effort.
                  >
                  > * ava adds some emphasis in the sense of "down"
                  > ** add ta.m sa.n.thaana.m
                  > *** here we start with the ya.m ta.m... the ya.m goes with the
                  second ta.m; the first ta.m I translate as "such".
                  > **** here we end the ya.m ta.m

                  Allow me to reanalyze this:
                  ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                  na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                  This is a ya.m [1] ... ta.m [2] correlative construct. Special to this
                  case is the presence of negation: ya.m [1] ... na ta.m [2].

                  As you have explained,

                  [1] = ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                  [2] = apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii

                  I find it easier to start with [2], then [1].

                  na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                  PTS has "viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati" simplified as "hold
                  out". Nina mentions "be steadfast in endeavour". The Comy. has
                  "sa.n.thaananti .thapanaa appavattanaa osakkanaa, pa.tippassaddhiiti
                  attho".

                  Considering all inputs, I propose:
                  having not attained that, (one) will apply the characteristics of vigour

                  Moving on to [1].

                  ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m

                  rearranging the phrase:

                  ya.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m ta.m

                  PTS has "what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human
                  striving". I propose "whichever that is attained with/through human
                  strength, vigour and energy".

                  Putting it altogether, I propose:

                  ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                  na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                  whichever that is attained/attainable through human strength, vigour
                  and energy, having not attained that, (one) will apply the
                  characteristics/form of vigour

                  Please correct me if I am wrong.


                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo and Nina, here is the second part. ... vigilance. bhante, thanks for pointing out that mayha.m is not genitive. In that case, I would
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo and Nina,

                    here is the second part.

                    > > Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
                    > > appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
                    > > to that / my / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi /
                    > > attained / with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
                    > > O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
                    > > unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.
                    >
                    > mayha.m can't mean "my"... it is catutthi vibhatti (dative). I
                    > think it goes with the tassa:
                    >
                    > O monks, for that (one who was) me, sambodhi was attained through
                    vigilance.

                    bhante, thanks for pointing out that 'mayha.m' is not genitive. In
                    that case, I would like to suggest:

                    Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
                    appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
                    therefore / for me / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi /
                    attained / with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
                    Therefore, monks, for me, sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance,
                    unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

                    What do you think?



                    > > tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva - yassatthaaya kulaputtaa
                    > > sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti tadanuttara.m -
                    > > brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa
                    > > sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.
                    > > O monks, you too, shortly - that (being) unsurpassed, not (of)
                    > > a householder, for the sake of which men of good birth go forth
                    > > from home properly - you will realise, attain and demonstrate
                    > > the knowledge, here and now, by yourselves, to the end of the
                    > > moral life.
                    >
                    > Sorry, this is clearly not correct...
                    >
                    > tumhepi - even you all, bhikkhave - o monks, nacirasseva - after a
                    time verily not long abhi~n~naa - having known especially tad - that
                    brahmacariyapariyosaana.m - complete (pari) and final (o) ending
                    (saana) of the holy life yassatthaaya - for the purpose of which
                    kulaputtaa - sons of (good) families sammadeva - rightly indeed
                    pabbajanti - go forth agaarasmaa - from the home anagaariya.m - to the
                    state of being one without a home (anagaarissa bhaavo = anagaariyaa)
                    sacchikatvaa - having made clear di.t.theva - verily, in visible
                    dhamme - reality viharissatha - will dwell upasampajja - having
                    caused (it) to arise saya.m -yourselves.

                    I can see I have made several mistakes here. Allow me to redo this
                    portion.

                    tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -
                    you-too / monks / shortly
                    O monks, shortly, you too -

                    yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
                    tadanuttara.m -
                    for the purpose of which / sons of (good) families / rightly / from
                    home / to the homeless state / go forth / that-unsurpassed
                    for the purpose of which that (is) unsurpassed, sons of (good)
                    families go forth rightly from home to the homeless state -

                    brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa
                    sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.
                    complete and final ending of the holy life / in this very life / by
                    yourselves / having known thoroughly / having realised / having
                    attained / will abide
                    having known thoroughly, realised and attained the complete and final
                    ending of the holy life by yourselves in this very life, will abide
                    (therein).

                    Please correct me if there is any mistake.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.
                  • Yuttadhammo
                    ... Really I may be wrong, but here goes: pa.tivaana means hindrance, no? Comes from Skt /v.r, probably nivaara.ne (in regards to hindering), which then
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
                      > > > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
                      > > > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
                      > > > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
                      > > >
                      > > > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
                      > > > non-restriction, free action.
                      > >
                      > > I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the
                      > bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier
                      > of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:
                      > >
                      > > "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"
                      > >
                      > > but I may be wrong :)
                      >
                      > bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                      > difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                      > really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                      > adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                      > simplified sentence:
                      >
                      > Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.

                      Really I may be wrong, but here goes:

                      pa.tivaana means hindrance, no? Comes from Skt /v.r, probably "nivaara.ne" (in regards to hindering), which then takes a suffix, maybe "yu", which becomes "ana". Probably something like pa.ti + vaa (for v.r) + a.na. Anyway, we get pa.tivaa.na or pa.tivaana, which seems to mean the state of hindrance - a bhaavasaadhana kitakanaama.

                      I'm proposing they add a .nii suffix to make a kattusaadhana kitakanaama formation like se.t.thii or dhammacaarii:

                      pa.tivaana.m siilamassaati pa.tivaanii

                      A state of hindrance is the norm for him, therefore he is called "one who has a state of hindrance as a norm".

                      > na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                      >
                      > PTS has "viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati" simplified as "hold
                      > out". Nina mentions "be steadfast in endeavour". The Comy. has
                      > "sa.n.thaananti .thapanaa appavattanaa osakkanaa, pa.tippassaddhiiti
                      > attho".
                      >
                      > Considering all inputs, I propose:
                      > having not attained that, (one) will apply the characteristics of vigour

                      I can't accept that bhavissati is referring to an indefinite agent taking sa.n.thaana.m as an object, but you could prove me wrong... here the Lord Buddha is speaking of himself. To put (one) in seems unlikely. If anything, I would suggest bhavissati to mean "will come to be" ie, the "characteristics of vigour" will come to be. But here, according to the commentary you have quoted, sa.n.thaana seems to mean "settling" in the sense of staying (.thapana), not going on (appavattana), drawing back (osakkana), settling down (pa.tippassaddhi).

                      If that be the case, I would propose:

                      viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                      There will be the settling for effort.

                      But I was thinking of taking sa.n.thaana as referring to the physical appearance of one who has lost flesh and blood... this makes most sense to me. In that case:

                      viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                      (this physical appearance of one without flesh and blood) will be the physical appearance of one who has vigour (viiriya could be a tadassatthi taddhita formation: viriya.m assa atthi viiriyo)

                      > ya.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m ta.m
                      >
                      > PTS has "what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human
                      > striving". I propose "whichever that is attained with/through human
                      > strength, vigour and energy".

                      tabba gives the meaning of "should/may".

                      Thank you for your work.

                      Best wishes,

                      Yuttadhammo
                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Dear Yong Peng, Bhante, ... N:Could it be that appa.tivaanii has the suffix -in and then it means: having no restriction? Then it would modify the padahaami,
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 28, 2007
                        Dear Yong Peng, Bhante,

                        Op 25-nov-2007, om 4:45 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                        > bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                        > difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                        > really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                        > adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                        > simplified sentence:
                        >
                        > Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.
                        -------
                        N:Could it be that appa.tivaanii has the suffix -in and then it
                        means: having no restriction? Then it would modify the padahaami, the
                        striving. This is different from PED. I think PED is not correct here.
                        Nina.



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