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Re: AN2.1.5 Upa~n~naata Sutta (1/1)

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  • Noah Yuttadhammo
    ... upa should mean come to , near , or firm . Here I would say came to know ... I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to be
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 18, 2007
      > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.

      upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say "came to know"

      > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
      > non-obstruction, free effort.

      I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo = appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would suggest adding "-dom" to "free".

      * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix

      > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
      > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
      > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
      >
      > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
      > non-restriction, free action.

      I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:

      "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"

      but I may be wrong :)

      > 'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu
      > ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena
      > purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa
      > sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti.
      > as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
      > may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood / which /
      > that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with manly energy /
      > has to be attained / not / that / having attained / of vigour / nature
      > / will become
      > 'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh and
      > blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
      > manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
      > will assume the characteristics of vigour.'
      > * kaama.m (adv) "my pleasure", willingly, let it be that [usually with
      > imper.].

      kaama.m should be "gladly", I would think...

      As for the rest, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest an alternate translation again:

      'Gladly, may skin, tendon and bone be all that remains*, may flesh and blood in the body dry up. (That form)** will be the form of one who,*** not having attained those (virtues) which are such as may be attained with manly strength, vigour and energy,**** has effort.

      * ava adds some emphasis in the sense of "down"

      ** add ta.m sa.n.thaana.m

      *** here we start with the ya.m ta.m... the ya.m goes with the second ta.m; the first ta.m I translate as "such".

      **** here we end the ya.m ta.m

      > Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
      > appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
      > to that / my / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi / attained
      > with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
      > O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
      > unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

      mayha.m can't mean "my"... it is catutthi vibhatti (dative). I think it goes with the tassa:

      O monks, for that (one who was) me, sambodhi was attained through vigilance.

      Svaha.m is a similar construction.

      > Tumhe cepi, bhikkhave, appa.tivaana.m padaheyyaatha -
      > you / even if / monks / non-hindrance / would strive
      > Monks, even if you would strive (for) non-hindrance -

      I think:

      Monks, if even you would take up* this (practice) free from hindrance

      * pa- (fully) + /dhaa (carry)

      > tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -
      > yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
      > tadanuttara.m - brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m
      > abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.

      > / will become / you-too / monks / shortly / for the sake of which /
      > men of good birth / properly / from home / not a householder / go
      > forth / that-unsurpassed / to the end of the moral life / here and now
      > / by oneself / knowledge / having realised / having attained / will dwell
      > O monks, you too, shortly
      > - that (being) unsurpassed, not (of) a householder, for the sake of
      > which men of good birth go forth from home properly - you will
      > realise, attain and demonstrate the knowledge, here and now, by
      > yourselves, to the end of the moral life.

      Sorry, this is clearly not correct...

      tumhepi - even you all, bhikkhave - o monks, nacirasseva - after a time verily not long abhi~n~naa - having known especially tad - that brahmacariyapariyosaana.m - complete (pari) and final (o) ending (saana) of the holy life yassatthaaya - for the purpose of which kulaputtaa - sons of (good) families sammadeva - rightly indeed pabbajanti - go forth agaarasmaa - from the home anagaariya.m - to the state of being one without a home (anagaarissa bhaavo = anagaariyaa) sacchikatvaa - having made clear di.t.theva - verily, in visible dhamme - reality viharissatha - will dwell upasampajja - having caused (it) to arise saya.m -yourselves.

      > Please correct me if there is any mistake.

      Good work... sorry if I've gone to far.

      Best Wishes,

      Yuttadhammo (Phra Noah)
    • Noah Yuttadhammo
      Sorry, that last should probably be: upasampajja - having come to (upa) fully (sam) attain (pad)
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 19, 2007
        Sorry, that last should probably be:

        upasampajja - having come to (upa) fully (sam) attain (pad)
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Yong Peng, thank you very much for all the trouble you took with this sutta. I have a few suggestions. ... Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 19, 2007
          Dear Yong Peng,
          thank you very much for all the trouble you took with this sutta.
          I have a few suggestions.
          ------
          Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m upa~n~naasi.m - yaa ca
          asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu
          -------
          Y.P.: asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu :which (are) discontentment
          with good states, and free of obstruction in effort.

          -------

          N: discontentment seems negative. The meaning is: kusala is never
          enough and he realises this . Suggestion: not being complacent with
          the good already performed.

          ---------

          Y.P.: Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami : O monks, even I
          strive (for) non-hindrance -

          ------

          N: suggested: free from any restriction, I strive thus:

          (The striving pertains to what follows, not to the non-hindrance. The
          non-hindrance tells us something about the way he strives).

          ---------

          Y.P.: kaama.m taco ca nhaaru'...As it shall be, may the skin, tendon
          and bone remains,

          -------

          N: nhaaru or: nahaaru.

          PTS has: (Kama.m)Gladly would I have...

          PTS : avasissatu, this is imperative of a verb. instead of a
          substantive the remains. Instead of :may they remain: may they wither
          (as PTS translation). Remain sounds strange to me.

          --------

          Y.P.: may flesh and
          blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
          manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
          will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

          -------

          N: san.thaana.m: position, establishment, firmness, steadfastness.

          I would turn the sentence around: ya.m ta.m purisathaamena
          purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa
          viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti:

          so that I will be steadfast in endeavour with heroic strength, vigour
          and energy in order to attain what has not been attained yet. (This
          is a free translation of pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa)

          *******



          Y.P.:O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
          unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

          ------

          N: Another option: Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa
          sambodhi:
          Therefore, monks, my awakening is attained with earnestness...

          ---------

          Y.P.:Monks, even if you would strive (for) non-hindrance -

          N: Monks, if you also would strive without restriction...
          ('even if' is different, it means: although...)
          -------

          N: pariyosaana: also: end, perfection, stands for arahatship.
          Suggestion: final goal, fulfilment.

          samadeva: sammaa +eva: rightly indeed.

          Upasampajja: gerund. Having attained. Abhi~n~naa: from
          abhijhaanaati.PTS gives here: saya.m abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa. Thus
          we have two gerunds here.

          Now I go first to the end: the three gerunds and the verb:

          tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva
          agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
          tadanuttara.m - brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme
          saya.mabhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.

          ------
          O monks, you too, after a short time, will dwell, after having
          thoroughly known for yourselves, realised and accomplished in this
          very life that unsurpassable fulfilment of the brahma life for the
          sake of which those of high birth rightly leave home for the homeless
          life.

          ----

          Eva~nhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabban"ti.


          Y.P.:Surely so, O monks, (it) should be learned by you."

          ------

          N: Thus, monks, should you train yourselves.

          Nina.














          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo, I am sorry, I did not see your contribution when I started to look at the sutta. Otherwise I would have acknowledged it. Thank
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 20, 2007
            Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo,
            I am sorry, I did not see your contribution when I started to look at
            the sutta. Otherwise I would have acknowledged it.
            Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.
            Maybe I need more examples.
            With respect,
            Nina.
            Op 19-nov-2007, om 8:42 heeft Noah Yuttadhammo het volgende geschreven:

            > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
            >
            > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
            > "came to know"
            >
            > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
            > > non-obstruction, free effort.
            >
            > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
            > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
            > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
            > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
            > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
            > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
            >
            > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Noah Yuttadhammo
            Dear Nina, ... Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I ve never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 20, 2007
              Dear Nina,

              > Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.

              Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja = kammasmaa jaato. Bhaava tadhita is the most common, I think, replacing the word bhaava with suffixes tta, .nya, ttana, taa, .n, or ka.n (the .n is theoretical, it simply diighas the root vowel and is dropped).

              Best Wishes,

              Yuttadhammo

              > > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
              > >
              > > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
              > > "came to know"
              > >
              > > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
              > > > non-obstruction, free effort.
              > >
              > > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
              > > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
              > > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
              > > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
              > > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
              > > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
              > >
              > > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo, Thank you very much for the explanation. With respect, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 21, 2007
                Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo,
                Thank you very much for the explanation.
                With respect,
                Nina.

                Op 21-nov-2007, om 0:13 heeft Noah Yuttadhammo het volgende geschreven:

                > Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that
                > I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly,
                > it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja =
                > kammasmaa jaato.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • johnny pruitt
                Dear Noah Yuttadhammo, Thanks for the clarification on the term Tadhita. I never knoew about this. Does -iko and -imo fit into this class of suffixes. Where
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 22, 2007
                  Dear Noah Yuttadhammo,
                  Thanks for the clarification on the term Tadhita. I never knoew about this. Does -iko and -imo fit into this class of suffixes. Where could I find more information about these suffixes?

                  Thanks John

                  Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@...> wrote:
                  Dear Nina,

                  > Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.

                  Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja = kammasmaa jaato. Bhaava tadhita is the most common, I think, replacing the word bhaava with suffixes tta, .nya, ttana, taa, .n, or ka.n (the .n is theoretical, it simply diighas the root vowel and is dropped).

                  Best Wishes,

                  Yuttadhammo

                  > > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
                  > >
                  > > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
                  > > "came to know"
                  > >
                  > > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
                  > > > non-obstruction, free effort.
                  > >
                  > > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
                  > > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
                  > > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
                  > > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
                  > > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
                  > > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
                  > >
                  > > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, allow me to reply to yours in parts. ... bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier ... bhante, thanks for
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 24, 2007
                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

                    allow me to reply to yours in parts.

                    > > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
                    > > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
                    > > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
                    > >
                    > > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
                    > > non-restriction, free action.
                    >
                    > I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the
                    bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier
                    of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:
                    >
                    > "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"
                    >
                    > but I may be wrong :)

                    bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                    difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                    really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                    adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                    simplified sentence:

                    Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.



                    > > 'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire
                    > > upasussatu ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena
                    > > purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m
                    > > apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti.
                    > > as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
                    > > may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood /
                    > > which / that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with
                    > > manly energy / has to be attained / not / that / having attained /
                    > > of vigour / nature / will become
                    > > 'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh
                    > > and blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be
                    > > attained with manly strength, vigour and energy, having not
                    > > attained that, (one) will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

                    > 'Gladly, may skin, tendon and bone be all that remains*, may flesh
                    and blood in the body dry up. (That form)** will be the form of one
                    who,*** not having attained those (virtues) which are such as may be
                    attained with manly strength, vigour and energy,**** has effort.
                    >
                    > * ava adds some emphasis in the sense of "down"
                    > ** add ta.m sa.n.thaana.m
                    > *** here we start with the ya.m ta.m... the ya.m goes with the
                    second ta.m; the first ta.m I translate as "such".
                    > **** here we end the ya.m ta.m

                    Allow me to reanalyze this:
                    ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                    na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                    This is a ya.m [1] ... ta.m [2] correlative construct. Special to this
                    case is the presence of negation: ya.m [1] ... na ta.m [2].

                    As you have explained,

                    [1] = ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                    [2] = apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii

                    I find it easier to start with [2], then [1].

                    na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                    PTS has "viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati" simplified as "hold
                    out". Nina mentions "be steadfast in endeavour". The Comy. has
                    "sa.n.thaananti .thapanaa appavattanaa osakkanaa, pa.tippassaddhiiti
                    attho".

                    Considering all inputs, I propose:
                    having not attained that, (one) will apply the characteristics of vigour

                    Moving on to [1].

                    ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m

                    rearranging the phrase:

                    ya.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m ta.m

                    PTS has "what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human
                    striving". I propose "whichever that is attained with/through human
                    strength, vigour and energy".

                    Putting it altogether, I propose:

                    ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                    na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                    whichever that is attained/attainable through human strength, vigour
                    and energy, having not attained that, (one) will apply the
                    characteristics/form of vigour

                    Please correct me if I am wrong.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo and Nina, here is the second part. ... vigilance. bhante, thanks for pointing out that mayha.m is not genitive. In that case, I would
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo and Nina,

                      here is the second part.

                      > > Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
                      > > appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
                      > > to that / my / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi /
                      > > attained / with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
                      > > O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
                      > > unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.
                      >
                      > mayha.m can't mean "my"... it is catutthi vibhatti (dative). I
                      > think it goes with the tassa:
                      >
                      > O monks, for that (one who was) me, sambodhi was attained through
                      vigilance.

                      bhante, thanks for pointing out that 'mayha.m' is not genitive. In
                      that case, I would like to suggest:

                      Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
                      appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
                      therefore / for me / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi /
                      attained / with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
                      Therefore, monks, for me, sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance,
                      unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

                      What do you think?



                      > > tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva - yassatthaaya kulaputtaa
                      > > sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti tadanuttara.m -
                      > > brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa
                      > > sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.
                      > > O monks, you too, shortly - that (being) unsurpassed, not (of)
                      > > a householder, for the sake of which men of good birth go forth
                      > > from home properly - you will realise, attain and demonstrate
                      > > the knowledge, here and now, by yourselves, to the end of the
                      > > moral life.
                      >
                      > Sorry, this is clearly not correct...
                      >
                      > tumhepi - even you all, bhikkhave - o monks, nacirasseva - after a
                      time verily not long abhi~n~naa - having known especially tad - that
                      brahmacariyapariyosaana.m - complete (pari) and final (o) ending
                      (saana) of the holy life yassatthaaya - for the purpose of which
                      kulaputtaa - sons of (good) families sammadeva - rightly indeed
                      pabbajanti - go forth agaarasmaa - from the home anagaariya.m - to the
                      state of being one without a home (anagaarissa bhaavo = anagaariyaa)
                      sacchikatvaa - having made clear di.t.theva - verily, in visible
                      dhamme - reality viharissatha - will dwell upasampajja - having
                      caused (it) to arise saya.m -yourselves.

                      I can see I have made several mistakes here. Allow me to redo this
                      portion.

                      tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -
                      you-too / monks / shortly
                      O monks, shortly, you too -

                      yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
                      tadanuttara.m -
                      for the purpose of which / sons of (good) families / rightly / from
                      home / to the homeless state / go forth / that-unsurpassed
                      for the purpose of which that (is) unsurpassed, sons of (good)
                      families go forth rightly from home to the homeless state -

                      brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa
                      sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.
                      complete and final ending of the holy life / in this very life / by
                      yourselves / having known thoroughly / having realised / having
                      attained / will abide
                      having known thoroughly, realised and attained the complete and final
                      ending of the holy life by yourselves in this very life, will abide
                      (therein).

                      Please correct me if there is any mistake.


                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.
                    • Yuttadhammo
                      ... Really I may be wrong, but here goes: pa.tivaana means hindrance, no? Comes from Skt /v.r, probably nivaara.ne (in regards to hindering), which then
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
                        > > > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
                        > > > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
                        > > > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
                        > > >
                        > > > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
                        > > > non-restriction, free action.
                        > >
                        > > I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the
                        > bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier
                        > of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:
                        > >
                        > > "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"
                        > >
                        > > but I may be wrong :)
                        >
                        > bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                        > difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                        > really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                        > adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                        > simplified sentence:
                        >
                        > Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.

                        Really I may be wrong, but here goes:

                        pa.tivaana means hindrance, no? Comes from Skt /v.r, probably "nivaara.ne" (in regards to hindering), which then takes a suffix, maybe "yu", which becomes "ana". Probably something like pa.ti + vaa (for v.r) + a.na. Anyway, we get pa.tivaa.na or pa.tivaana, which seems to mean the state of hindrance - a bhaavasaadhana kitakanaama.

                        I'm proposing they add a .nii suffix to make a kattusaadhana kitakanaama formation like se.t.thii or dhammacaarii:

                        pa.tivaana.m siilamassaati pa.tivaanii

                        A state of hindrance is the norm for him, therefore he is called "one who has a state of hindrance as a norm".

                        > na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                        >
                        > PTS has "viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati" simplified as "hold
                        > out". Nina mentions "be steadfast in endeavour". The Comy. has
                        > "sa.n.thaananti .thapanaa appavattanaa osakkanaa, pa.tippassaddhiiti
                        > attho".
                        >
                        > Considering all inputs, I propose:
                        > having not attained that, (one) will apply the characteristics of vigour

                        I can't accept that bhavissati is referring to an indefinite agent taking sa.n.thaana.m as an object, but you could prove me wrong... here the Lord Buddha is speaking of himself. To put (one) in seems unlikely. If anything, I would suggest bhavissati to mean "will come to be" ie, the "characteristics of vigour" will come to be. But here, according to the commentary you have quoted, sa.n.thaana seems to mean "settling" in the sense of staying (.thapana), not going on (appavattana), drawing back (osakkana), settling down (pa.tippassaddhi).

                        If that be the case, I would propose:

                        viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                        There will be the settling for effort.

                        But I was thinking of taking sa.n.thaana as referring to the physical appearance of one who has lost flesh and blood... this makes most sense to me. In that case:

                        viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                        (this physical appearance of one without flesh and blood) will be the physical appearance of one who has vigour (viiriya could be a tadassatthi taddhita formation: viriya.m assa atthi viiriyo)

                        > ya.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m ta.m
                        >
                        > PTS has "what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human
                        > striving". I propose "whichever that is attained with/through human
                        > strength, vigour and energy".

                        tabba gives the meaning of "should/may".

                        Thank you for your work.

                        Best wishes,

                        Yuttadhammo
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Yong Peng, Bhante, ... N:Could it be that appa.tivaanii has the suffix -in and then it means: having no restriction? Then it would modify the padahaami,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 28, 2007
                          Dear Yong Peng, Bhante,

                          Op 25-nov-2007, om 4:45 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                          > bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                          > difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                          > really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                          > adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                          > simplified sentence:
                          >
                          > Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.
                          -------
                          N:Could it be that appa.tivaanii has the suffix -in and then it
                          means: having no restriction? Then it would modify the padahaami, the
                          striving. This is different from PED. I think PED is not correct here.
                          Nina.



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