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AN2.1.5 Upa~n~naata Sutta (1/1)

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear friends, this translation exercise is made up of two suttas. This post contains the first, while a later post will be for the second. ... AN2.1.5
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 18, 2007
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      Dear friends,

      this translation exercise is made up of two suttas. This post contains
      the first, while a later post will be for the second.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      AN2.1.5 Upa~n~naatasutta

      5. "Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m upa~n~naasi.m - yaa ca
      asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu, yaa ca appa.tivaanitaa
      padhaanasmi.m. Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
      'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu
      ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena
      purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa
      sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti. Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave,
      appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi, appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
      Tumhe cepi, bhikkhave, appa.tivaana.m padaheyyaatha - 'kaama.m taco ca
      nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu ma.msalohita.m,
      ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
      na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti,
      tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva - yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva
      agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti tadanuttara.m -
      brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa
      sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha. Tasmaatiha, bhikkhave, eva.m
      sikkhitabba.m - 'appa.tivaana.m padahissaama. Kaama.m taco ca nhaaru
      ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m
      purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m
      apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti. Eva~nhi vo,
      bhikkhave, sikkhitabban"ti.

      Pa~ncama.m.

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      "Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m upa~n~naasi.m -
      of two-I / monks / of things / had knowledge of -
      "O monks, I had knowledge of two things -

      * dvinnaaha.m = dvinna.m aha.m.
      - dvi (num) two.
      - aha.m (pron) I.
      * bhikkhu (m) monk.
      * dhamma (n) thing.
      * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.

      yaa ca asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu, yaa ca appa.tivaanitaa
      padhaanasmi.m.
      which / and / discontentment / with good / with states / which / and /
      free of obstruction / in effort
      which (are) discontentment with good states, and free of obstruction
      in effort.

      * ya (pron) which.
      * ca (conj) and.
      * asantu.t.thitaa (f) discontentment, dissatisfaction.
      * kusala (adj) wholesome, good.
      * dhamma (n) quality.
      * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
      non-obstruction, free effort.
      * padhaana (n) exertion, striving, concentration of mind.

      Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
      non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
      O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -

      * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
      non-restriction, free action.
      * sudaaha.m = suda.m aha.m.
      - suda.m (indec) even, just [usually untranslatable].
      * padahati (v) strives, exerts.

      'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu
      ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena
      purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa
      sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti.
      as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
      may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood / which /
      that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with manly energy /
      has to be attained / not / that / having attained / of vigour / nature
      / will become
      'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh and
      blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
      manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
      will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

      * kaama.m (adv) "my pleasure", willingly, let it be that [usually with
      imper.].
      * taca (m)/taco (n) skin.
      * nhaaru (m) sinew, tendon, muscle.
      * a.t.thi (n) bone.
      * avasissati (v) is left over, remains.
      * sariira (n) body.
      * upasussati (v) dries up.
      * ma.msalohita = ma.msalohita (n) flesh and blood.
      - ma.msa (n) flesh.
      - lohita (n) blood.
      * ta (pron) he, that.
      * purisathaama (m) manly strength.
      - purisa (m) man.
      - thaama (m)/thaamo (n) strength.
      * purisaviiriya (n) manly vigour.
      - viiriya [SLTP/PED has viriya] (n) vigour, energy, effort.
      * purisaparakkama (m) manly energy.
      - para-kkama (m) exertion, endeavour, effort.
      * pattabba (grd of paapu.naati) is gained, is attained.
      * na (neg) not.
      * paapu.naati (v) reaches, attains, obtains.
      * sa.n.thaana (n) nature.
      * bhavati (v) verb to be.

      Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
      appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
      to that / my / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi / attained
      with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
      O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
      unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

      * aha.m (pron) I.
      * appamaadaadhigata = appamaadena adhigata (pp) attained with vigilance.
      - appamaada (m) thoughtfulness, carefulness, vigilance, zeal.
      - adhigata (pp of adhigacchati) got into possession of, conquered,
      attained.
      * sambodhi (f) the highest enlightenment.
      * anuttara (adj) second to none, unsurpassed.
      * yoga-kkhema (m) [fig] peace from bondage.

      Tumhe cepi, bhikkhave, appa.tivaana.m padaheyyaatha -
      you / even if / monks / non-hindrance / would strive
      Monks, even if you would strive (for) non-hindrance -

      * tva.m (pron) you.
      * cepi (indec) even if.
      - ce (indec) if.
      - pi (indec) also, too.
      * appa.tivaana [PED has appa.tivaa.na] (n) non-obstruction, not
      hindering, not opposing.

      'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu
      ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena
      purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa
      sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti, tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -
      yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
      tadanuttara.m - brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m
      abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.
      as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
      may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood / which /
      that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with manly energy /
      has to be attained / not / that / having attained / of vigour / nature
      / will become / you-too / monks / shortly / for the sake of which /
      men of good birth / properly / from home / not a householder / go
      forth / that-unsurpassed / to the end of the moral life / here and now
      / by oneself / knowledge / having realised / having attained / will dwell
      'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh and
      blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
      manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
      will assume the characteristics of vigour.' O monks, you too, shortly
      - that (being) unsurpassed, not (of) a householder, for the sake of
      which men of good birth go forth from home properly - you will
      realise, attain and demonstrate the knowledge, here and now, by
      yourselves, to the end of the moral life.

      * tumhepi = tumhe pi.
      * nacirasseva = nacirassa eva: after a short time, shortly. [PED nacira]
      * yassatthaaya = yassa atthaaya.
      - atthaaya (dat) for the sake of, in order to.
      * kulaputta (m) clansman, man of good birth.
      * samma-d-eva (adv) properly, in harmony or completeness. [PED sammaa]
      * agaara (n) house.
      * anagaariya = na agaariya (m) not a householder.
      - agaariya [=agaarika] (m) householder, layman.
      * pabbajati (v) goes forth [to become a monk].
      * tadanuttara.m = ta.m anuttara.m.
      * brahmacariyapariyosaana (n) end of moral life.
      - brahmacariya (n) moral life.
      - pariyosaana (n) end, finish, conclusion.
      * di.t.the va dhamme = already or even in the present existence. [PED
      di.t.tha]
      * saya.m (adv) by oneself.
      * abhi~n~naa (f) knowledge.
      * sacchikaroti (v) sees with one's eyes, realises, experiences for
      oneself.
      * upasampajjati (v) attains.
      * viharati (v) dwells.

      Tasmaatiha, bhikkhave, eva.m sikkhitabba.m â€" 'appa.tivaana.m padahissaama.
      from that-here / monks / thus / should be learned / non-hindrance /
      shall strive
      From this here, O monks, (it) should be learned thus - (we) shall
      strive (for) non-hindrance:

      * tasmaatiha = tasmaa+(t)+iha.
      - tad (dem pron) that.
      - iha (adv) here.
      * eva.m (indec) so, thus.
      * sikkhitabba (ppot) should be learned.

      Kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu
      ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena
      purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa
      sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti.
      as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
      may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood / which /
      that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with manly energy /
      has to be attained / not / that / having attained / of vigour / nature
      / will become
      'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh and
      blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
      manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
      will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

      Eva~nhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabban"ti.
      so-surely / by you / monks / should be learned
      Surely so, O monks, (it) should be learned by you."

      * hi (indec) surely.

      Pa~ncama.m.
      fifth
      The fifth.



      Please correct me if there is any mistake.

      metta,
      Yong Peng.
    • Noah Yuttadhammo
      ... upa should mean come to , near , or firm . Here I would say came to know ... I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to be
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 18, 2007
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        > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.

        upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say "came to know"

        > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
        > non-obstruction, free effort.

        I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo = appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would suggest adding "-dom" to "free".

        * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix

        > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
        > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
        > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
        >
        > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
        > non-restriction, free action.

        I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:

        "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"

        but I may be wrong :)

        > 'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire upasussatu
        > ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena
        > purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa
        > sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti.
        > as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
        > may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood / which /
        > that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with manly energy /
        > has to be attained / not / that / having attained / of vigour / nature
        > / will become
        > 'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh and
        > blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
        > manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
        > will assume the characteristics of vigour.'
        > * kaama.m (adv) "my pleasure", willingly, let it be that [usually with
        > imper.].

        kaama.m should be "gladly", I would think...

        As for the rest, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and suggest an alternate translation again:

        'Gladly, may skin, tendon and bone be all that remains*, may flesh and blood in the body dry up. (That form)** will be the form of one who,*** not having attained those (virtues) which are such as may be attained with manly strength, vigour and energy,**** has effort.

        * ava adds some emphasis in the sense of "down"

        ** add ta.m sa.n.thaana.m

        *** here we start with the ya.m ta.m... the ya.m goes with the second ta.m; the first ta.m I translate as "such".

        **** here we end the ya.m ta.m

        > Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
        > appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
        > to that / my / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi / attained
        > with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
        > O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
        > unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

        mayha.m can't mean "my"... it is catutthi vibhatti (dative). I think it goes with the tassa:

        O monks, for that (one who was) me, sambodhi was attained through vigilance.

        Svaha.m is a similar construction.

        > Tumhe cepi, bhikkhave, appa.tivaana.m padaheyyaatha -
        > you / even if / monks / non-hindrance / would strive
        > Monks, even if you would strive (for) non-hindrance -

        I think:

        Monks, if even you would take up* this (practice) free from hindrance

        * pa- (fully) + /dhaa (carry)

        > tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -
        > yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
        > tadanuttara.m - brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m
        > abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.

        > / will become / you-too / monks / shortly / for the sake of which /
        > men of good birth / properly / from home / not a householder / go
        > forth / that-unsurpassed / to the end of the moral life / here and now
        > / by oneself / knowledge / having realised / having attained / will dwell
        > O monks, you too, shortly
        > - that (being) unsurpassed, not (of) a householder, for the sake of
        > which men of good birth go forth from home properly - you will
        > realise, attain and demonstrate the knowledge, here and now, by
        > yourselves, to the end of the moral life.

        Sorry, this is clearly not correct...

        tumhepi - even you all, bhikkhave - o monks, nacirasseva - after a time verily not long abhi~n~naa - having known especially tad - that brahmacariyapariyosaana.m - complete (pari) and final (o) ending (saana) of the holy life yassatthaaya - for the purpose of which kulaputtaa - sons of (good) families sammadeva - rightly indeed pabbajanti - go forth agaarasmaa - from the home anagaariya.m - to the state of being one without a home (anagaarissa bhaavo = anagaariyaa) sacchikatvaa - having made clear di.t.theva - verily, in visible dhamme - reality viharissatha - will dwell upasampajja - having caused (it) to arise saya.m -yourselves.

        > Please correct me if there is any mistake.

        Good work... sorry if I've gone to far.

        Best Wishes,

        Yuttadhammo (Phra Noah)
      • Noah Yuttadhammo
        Sorry, that last should probably be: upasampajja - having come to (upa) fully (sam) attain (pad)
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 19, 2007
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          Sorry, that last should probably be:

          upasampajja - having come to (upa) fully (sam) attain (pad)
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Yong Peng, thank you very much for all the trouble you took with this sutta. I have a few suggestions. ... Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 19, 2007
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            Dear Yong Peng,
            thank you very much for all the trouble you took with this sutta.
            I have a few suggestions.
            ------
            Dvinnaaha.m, bhikkhave, dhammaana.m upa~n~naasi.m - yaa ca
            asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu
            -------
            Y.P.: asantu.t.thitaa kusalesu dhammesu :which (are) discontentment
            with good states, and free of obstruction in effort.

            -------

            N: discontentment seems negative. The meaning is: kusala is never
            enough and he realises this . Suggestion: not being complacent with
            the good already performed.

            ---------

            Y.P.: Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami : O monks, even I
            strive (for) non-hindrance -

            ------

            N: suggested: free from any restriction, I strive thus:

            (The striving pertains to what follows, not to the non-hindrance. The
            non-hindrance tells us something about the way he strives).

            ---------

            Y.P.: kaama.m taco ca nhaaru'...As it shall be, may the skin, tendon
            and bone remains,

            -------

            N: nhaaru or: nahaaru.

            PTS has: (Kama.m)Gladly would I have...

            PTS : avasissatu, this is imperative of a verb. instead of a
            substantive the remains. Instead of :may they remain: may they wither
            (as PTS translation). Remain sounds strange to me.

            --------

            Y.P.: may flesh and
            blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be attained with
            manly strength, vigour and energy, having not attained that, (one)
            will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

            -------

            N: san.thaana.m: position, establishment, firmness, steadfastness.

            I would turn the sentence around: ya.m ta.m purisathaamena
            purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa
            viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti:

            so that I will be steadfast in endeavour with heroic strength, vigour
            and energy in order to attain what has not been attained yet. (This
            is a free translation of pattabba.m na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa)

            *******



            Y.P.:O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
            unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

            ------

            N: Another option: Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa
            sambodhi:
            Therefore, monks, my awakening is attained with earnestness...

            ---------

            Y.P.:Monks, even if you would strive (for) non-hindrance -

            N: Monks, if you also would strive without restriction...
            ('even if' is different, it means: although...)
            -------

            N: pariyosaana: also: end, perfection, stands for arahatship.
            Suggestion: final goal, fulfilment.

            samadeva: sammaa +eva: rightly indeed.

            Upasampajja: gerund. Having attained. Abhi~n~naa: from
            abhijhaanaati.PTS gives here: saya.m abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa. Thus
            we have two gerunds here.

            Now I go first to the end: the three gerunds and the verb:

            tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva
            agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
            tadanuttara.m - brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme
            saya.mabhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.

            ------
            O monks, you too, after a short time, will dwell, after having
            thoroughly known for yourselves, realised and accomplished in this
            very life that unsurpassable fulfilment of the brahma life for the
            sake of which those of high birth rightly leave home for the homeless
            life.

            ----

            Eva~nhi vo, bhikkhave, sikkhitabban"ti.


            Y.P.:Surely so, O monks, (it) should be learned by you."

            ------

            N: Thus, monks, should you train yourselves.

            Nina.














            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo, I am sorry, I did not see your contribution when I started to look at the sutta. Otherwise I would have acknowledged it. Thank
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 20, 2007
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              Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo,
              I am sorry, I did not see your contribution when I started to look at
              the sutta. Otherwise I would have acknowledged it.
              Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.
              Maybe I need more examples.
              With respect,
              Nina.
              Op 19-nov-2007, om 8:42 heeft Noah Yuttadhammo het volgende geschreven:

              > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
              >
              > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
              > "came to know"
              >
              > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
              > > non-obstruction, free effort.
              >
              > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
              > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
              > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
              > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
              > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
              > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
              >
              > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Noah Yuttadhammo
              Dear Nina, ... Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I ve never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 20, 2007
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                Dear Nina,

                > Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.

                Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja = kammasmaa jaato. Bhaava tadhita is the most common, I think, replacing the word bhaava with suffixes tta, .nya, ttana, taa, .n, or ka.n (the .n is theoretical, it simply diighas the root vowel and is dropped).

                Best Wishes,

                Yuttadhammo

                > > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
                > >
                > > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
                > > "came to know"
                > >
                > > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
                > > > non-obstruction, free effort.
                > >
                > > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
                > > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
                > > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
                > > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
                > > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
                > > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
                > >
                > > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo, Thank you very much for the explanation. With respect, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 21, 2007
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                  Venerable Bhikkhu Yuttadhammo,
                  Thank you very much for the explanation.
                  With respect,
                  Nina.

                  Op 21-nov-2007, om 0:13 heeft Noah Yuttadhammo het volgende geschreven:

                  > Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that
                  > I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly,
                  > it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja =
                  > kammasmaa jaato.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • johnny pruitt
                  Dear Noah Yuttadhammo, Thanks for the clarification on the term Tadhita. I never knoew about this. Does -iko and -imo fit into this class of suffixes. Where
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 22, 2007
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                    Dear Noah Yuttadhammo,
                    Thanks for the clarification on the term Tadhita. I never knoew about this. Does -iko and -imo fit into this class of suffixes. Where could I find more information about these suffixes?

                    Thanks John

                    Noah Yuttadhammo <yuttadhammo@...> wrote:
                    Dear Nina,

                    > Thank you for the grammar, but I have trouble reading those terms.

                    Bhaava means state, etc. Tadhita is a part of Pali grammar that I've never seen adequately addressed by Western Palicists. Briefly, it means adding a suffix in place of a word, like kammaja = kammasmaa jaato. Bhaava tadhita is the most common, I think, replacing the word bhaava with suffixes tta, .nya, ttana, taa, .n, or ka.n (the .n is theoretical, it simply diighas the root vowel and is dropped).

                    Best Wishes,

                    Yuttadhammo

                    > > > * upajaanaati (v) have knowledge of.
                    > >
                    > > upa should mean "come to", "near", or "firm". Here I would say
                    > > "came to know"
                    > >
                    > > > * appa.tivaanitaa [PED has appa.tivaa.nitaa] (f) not being hindered,
                    > > > non-obstruction, free effort.
                    > >
                    > > I would contrast this word with appa.tivaanii - the former looks to
                    > > be a bhaava-tadhita formation: appa.tivaanissa bhaavo =
                    > > appa.tivaanitaa (the state of being one who is unhindered*). This
                    > > is clear because the phrase "discontentment with good states, and
                    > > free of obstruction in effort" is syntactically incorrect - I would
                    > > suggest adding "-dom" to "free".
                    > >
                    > > * Appa.tivaanii (see below) + taa bhaava-tadhita suffix
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





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                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, allow me to reply to yours in parts. ... bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier ... bhante, thanks for
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 24, 2007
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                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

                      allow me to reply to yours in parts.

                      > > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
                      > > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
                      > > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
                      > >
                      > > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
                      > > non-restriction, free action.
                      >
                      > I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the
                      bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier
                      of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:
                      >
                      > "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"
                      >
                      > but I may be wrong :)

                      bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                      difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                      really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                      adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                      simplified sentence:

                      Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.



                      > > 'kaama.m taco ca nhaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu, sariire
                      > > upasussatu ma.msalohita.m, ya.m ta.m purisathaamena
                      > > purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m na ta.m
                      > > apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii'ti.
                      > > as it shall be / skin / and / tendon / and / bone / and /
                      > > may...remains / in body / may...dries up / flesh and blood /
                      > > which / that / with manly strength / with manly vigour / with
                      > > manly energy / has to be attained / not / that / having attained /
                      > > of vigour / nature / will become
                      > > 'As it shall be, may the skin, tendon and bone remains, may flesh
                      > > and blood in the body dries up, whichever (that) has to be
                      > > attained with manly strength, vigour and energy, having not
                      > > attained that, (one) will assume the characteristics of vigour.'

                      > 'Gladly, may skin, tendon and bone be all that remains*, may flesh
                      and blood in the body dry up. (That form)** will be the form of one
                      who,*** not having attained those (virtues) which are such as may be
                      attained with manly strength, vigour and energy,**** has effort.
                      >
                      > * ava adds some emphasis in the sense of "down"
                      > ** add ta.m sa.n.thaana.m
                      > *** here we start with the ya.m ta.m... the ya.m goes with the
                      second ta.m; the first ta.m I translate as "such".
                      > **** here we end the ya.m ta.m

                      Allow me to reanalyze this:
                      ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                      na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                      This is a ya.m [1] ... ta.m [2] correlative construct. Special to this
                      case is the presence of negation: ya.m [1] ... na ta.m [2].

                      As you have explained,

                      [1] = ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                      [2] = apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissatii

                      I find it easier to start with [2], then [1].

                      na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                      PTS has "viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati" simplified as "hold
                      out". Nina mentions "be steadfast in endeavour". The Comy. has
                      "sa.n.thaananti .thapanaa appavattanaa osakkanaa, pa.tippassaddhiiti
                      attho".

                      Considering all inputs, I propose:
                      having not attained that, (one) will apply the characteristics of vigour

                      Moving on to [1].

                      ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m

                      rearranging the phrase:

                      ya.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m ta.m

                      PTS has "what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human
                      striving". I propose "whichever that is attained with/through human
                      strength, vigour and energy".

                      Putting it altogether, I propose:

                      ya.m ta.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m
                      na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                      whichever that is attained/attainable through human strength, vigour
                      and energy, having not attained that, (one) will apply the
                      characteristics/form of vigour

                      Please correct me if I am wrong.


                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo and Nina, here is the second part. ... vigilance. bhante, thanks for pointing out that mayha.m is not genitive. In that case, I would
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
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                        Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo and Nina,

                        here is the second part.

                        > > Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
                        > > appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
                        > > to that / my / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi /
                        > > attained / with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
                        > > O monks, for that, my sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance, (my)
                        > > unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.
                        >
                        > mayha.m can't mean "my"... it is catutthi vibhatti (dative). I
                        > think it goes with the tassa:
                        >
                        > O monks, for that (one who was) me, sambodhi was attained through
                        vigilance.

                        bhante, thanks for pointing out that 'mayha.m' is not genitive. In
                        that case, I would like to suggest:

                        Tassa mayha.m, bhikkhave, appamaadaadhigataa sambodhi,
                        appamaadaadhigato anuttaro yogakkhemo.
                        therefore / for me / monks / attained with vigilance / sambodhi /
                        attained / with vigilance / unsurpassed / peace from bondage
                        Therefore, monks, for me, sambodhi (is) attained with vigilance,
                        unsurpassed peace from bondage (is) attained with vigilance.

                        What do you think?



                        > > tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva - yassatthaaya kulaputtaa
                        > > sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti tadanuttara.m -
                        > > brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa
                        > > sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.
                        > > O monks, you too, shortly - that (being) unsurpassed, not (of)
                        > > a householder, for the sake of which men of good birth go forth
                        > > from home properly - you will realise, attain and demonstrate
                        > > the knowledge, here and now, by yourselves, to the end of the
                        > > moral life.
                        >
                        > Sorry, this is clearly not correct...
                        >
                        > tumhepi - even you all, bhikkhave - o monks, nacirasseva - after a
                        time verily not long abhi~n~naa - having known especially tad - that
                        brahmacariyapariyosaana.m - complete (pari) and final (o) ending
                        (saana) of the holy life yassatthaaya - for the purpose of which
                        kulaputtaa - sons of (good) families sammadeva - rightly indeed
                        pabbajanti - go forth agaarasmaa - from the home anagaariya.m - to the
                        state of being one without a home (anagaarissa bhaavo = anagaariyaa)
                        sacchikatvaa - having made clear di.t.theva - verily, in visible
                        dhamme - reality viharissatha - will dwell upasampajja - having
                        caused (it) to arise saya.m -yourselves.

                        I can see I have made several mistakes here. Allow me to redo this
                        portion.

                        tumhepi, bhikkhave, nacirasseva -
                        you-too / monks / shortly
                        O monks, shortly, you too -

                        yassatthaaya kulaputtaa sammadeva agaarasmaa anagaariya.m pabbajanti
                        tadanuttara.m -
                        for the purpose of which / sons of (good) families / rightly / from
                        home / to the homeless state / go forth / that-unsurpassed
                        for the purpose of which that (is) unsurpassed, sons of (good)
                        families go forth rightly from home to the homeless state -

                        brahmacariyapariyosaana.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa
                        sacchikatvaa upasampajja viharissatha.
                        complete and final ending of the holy life / in this very life / by
                        yourselves / having known thoroughly / having realised / having
                        attained / will abide
                        having known thoroughly, realised and attained the complete and final
                        ending of the holy life by yourselves in this very life, will abide
                        (therein).

                        Please correct me if there is any mistake.


                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.
                      • Yuttadhammo
                        ... Really I may be wrong, but here goes: pa.tivaana means hindrance, no? Comes from Skt /v.r, probably nivaara.ne (in regards to hindering), which then
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 25, 2007
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                          > > > Appa.tivaanii sudaaha.m, bhikkhave, padahaami -
                          > > > non-hindrance / even I / monks / strive
                          > > > O monks, even I strive (for) non-hindrance -
                          > > >
                          > > > * appa.tivaanii [PED has appa.tivaa.nii] (f) non-hindrance,
                          > > > non-restriction, free action.
                          > >
                          > > I can't see how the two can be the same; this one is lacking the
                          > bhaava suffix... here it seems to me that appa.tivaanii is a modifier
                          > of aha.m. I would rather translate this as:
                          > >
                          > > "Verily, o monks, I strove on free from hindrance"
                          > >
                          > > but I may be wrong :)
                          >
                          > bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                          > difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                          > really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                          > adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                          > simplified sentence:
                          >
                          > Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.

                          Really I may be wrong, but here goes:

                          pa.tivaana means hindrance, no? Comes from Skt /v.r, probably "nivaara.ne" (in regards to hindering), which then takes a suffix, maybe "yu", which becomes "ana". Probably something like pa.ti + vaa (for v.r) + a.na. Anyway, we get pa.tivaa.na or pa.tivaana, which seems to mean the state of hindrance - a bhaavasaadhana kitakanaama.

                          I'm proposing they add a .nii suffix to make a kattusaadhana kitakanaama formation like se.t.thii or dhammacaarii:

                          pa.tivaana.m siilamassaati pa.tivaanii

                          A state of hindrance is the norm for him, therefore he is called "one who has a state of hindrance as a norm".

                          > na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                          >
                          > PTS has "viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati" simplified as "hold
                          > out". Nina mentions "be steadfast in endeavour". The Comy. has
                          > "sa.n.thaananti .thapanaa appavattanaa osakkanaa, pa.tippassaddhiiti
                          > attho".
                          >
                          > Considering all inputs, I propose:
                          > having not attained that, (one) will apply the characteristics of vigour

                          I can't accept that bhavissati is referring to an indefinite agent taking sa.n.thaana.m as an object, but you could prove me wrong... here the Lord Buddha is speaking of himself. To put (one) in seems unlikely. If anything, I would suggest bhavissati to mean "will come to be" ie, the "characteristics of vigour" will come to be. But here, according to the commentary you have quoted, sa.n.thaana seems to mean "settling" in the sense of staying (.thapana), not going on (appavattana), drawing back (osakkana), settling down (pa.tippassaddhi).

                          If that be the case, I would propose:

                          viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati

                          There will be the settling for effort.

                          But I was thinking of taking sa.n.thaana as referring to the physical appearance of one who has lost flesh and blood... this makes most sense to me. In that case:

                          viiriyassa sa.n.thaana.m bhavissati
                          (this physical appearance of one without flesh and blood) will be the physical appearance of one who has vigour (viiriya could be a tadassatthi taddhita formation: viriya.m assa atthi viiriyo)

                          > ya.m purisathaamena purisaviiriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m ta.m
                          >
                          > PTS has "what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human
                          > striving". I propose "whichever that is attained with/through human
                          > strength, vigour and energy".

                          tabba gives the meaning of "should/may".

                          Thank you for your work.

                          Best wishes,

                          Yuttadhammo
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Yong Peng, Bhante, ... N:Could it be that appa.tivaanii has the suffix -in and then it means: having no restriction? Then it would modify the padahaami,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 28, 2007
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                            Dear Yong Peng, Bhante,

                            Op 25-nov-2007, om 4:45 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                            > bhante, thanks for highlighting the bhaava-tadhita formation as the
                            > difference between appa.tivaanitaa and appa.tivaanii. However, I
                            > really can't see how appa.tivaanii can be a modifier/qualifier (ie. an
                            > adjective) of aha.m. Would you kindly clarify with the following
                            > simplified sentence:
                            >
                            > Appa.tivaanii aha.m padahaami.
                            -------
                            N:Could it be that appa.tivaanii has the suffix -in and then it
                            means: having no restriction? Then it would modify the padahaami, the
                            striving. This is different from PED. I think PED is not correct here.
                            Nina.



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