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Re: SV: [Pali] Re: Burmese crisis: A case for democracy

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  • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
    Hello, ... Evidently, due to the lack of information from Myanmar, the notions about events there took on some mythical features. I would highly recommend the
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 14, 2007
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      Hello,

      > By the way: there has been some talk in other circles
      > about nominating the Burmese sangha for the Nobel
      > Peace Prize.

      Evidently, due to the lack of information from Myanmar, the notions
      about events there took on some mythical features.

      I would highly recommend the detailed video report:

      http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A0A81AA6-DACD-4913-AB67-AA8602962EAB.htm
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UqQaizM15Q
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2goTVC5g3M

      And the account from inside the monastery:
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7022475.stm

      Best wishes, Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Dmytro, thanks for the links. metta, Yong Peng. ... I would highly recommend the detailed video report:
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 14, 2007
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        Dear Dmytro,

        thanks for the links.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko wrote:

        I would highly recommend the detailed video report:

        http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A0A81AA6-DACD-4913-AB67-AA8602962EAB.htm
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UqQaizM15Q
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2goTVC5g3M

        And the account from inside the monastery:
        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7022475.stm
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Gunnar, I think you have carried my message beyond its intention. I did not intend to link Asoka or any other historical person to be a cakkavatti. There
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 14, 2007
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          Dear Gunnar,

          I think you have carried my message beyond its intention. I did not
          intend to link Asoka or any other historical person to be a
          cakkavatti. There also isn't any discussion to nominate the monks to
          any award.

          It is true that Myanmar is not constitutionally Buddhist, but it is
          still by and large culturally Buddhist. The cakkavatti is an ideal,
          something for any Buddhist political leader to work towards. I am not
          arguing for despotism but democracy.

          I am also not aware of any part of Asian culture which supports
          tyranny, if you could enlighten us.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar G�llmo wrote:

          > The brutal treatment of its people by the Myanmar
          > government does not befit good old Asian traditions.
          > Asian culture balks at tyranny.

          Well well well - Buddhist culture does, but Asian
          culture in general? I think the history of Asia is
          much more complicated than that; despotism can be
          found there as well as in other continents. (Many
          Europeans, blind for the failings of their own region,
          have thought it even an Asian specialty and talken
          about "Oriental Despotism".)
        • Gunnar Gällmo
          ... I didn t say _you_ did. I said it has often been done in Buddhist history. ... There is some - see
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 15, 2007
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            --- Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> skrev:

            > Dear Gunnar,
            >
            > I think you have carried my message beyond its
            > intention. I did not
            > intend to link Asoka or any other historical person
            > to be a
            > cakkavatti.

            I didn't say _you_ did. I said it has often been done
            in Buddhist history.

            > There also isn't any discussion to
            > nominate the monks to
            > any award.

            There is some - see

            http://www.mizzima.com/MizzimaNews/EdOp/2007/Oct/01-Oct-07.html

            Unfortunately Mr Corso, who wrote the article, managed
            to do about everything wrong:

            1. He thought he is entitled to nominate, which he
            probably isn't.

            2. He nominated for the wrong year - nominations for a
            certain year must be presented no later than February
            1:st that year.

            3. He tried to nominate through a public article,
            which the committee wouldn't accept - it abhors public
            campaigns.

            4. He didn't define exactly whom he wanted to
            nominate.

            That's why I would like to know if there actually is
            any person or organization who could, realistically,
            be nominated, or not.

            (I have sent a e-mail to Mizzima pointing these things
            out, but they haven't answered.)

            > It is true that Myanmar is not constitutionally
            > Buddhist, but it is
            > still by and large culturally Buddhist.

            Now we are coming into problems of definitions. In
            Thailand, Buddhism is officially state religion; but
            that doesn't guarantee it is always ruled according to
            Buddhist ideals. (For example, it still has the death
            penalty, which many Non-Buddhist countries manage to
            do without.)

            I person becomes a Buddhist by taking the three
            refuges; but a country can't do that.

            > The
            > cakkavatti is an ideal,
            > something for any Buddhist political leader to work
            > towards. I am not
            > arguing for despotism but democracy.

            True.

            > I am also not aware of any part of Asian culture
            > which supports
            > tyranny, if you could enlighten us.

            I don't think it is possible to speak about "Asian
            culture" in singular, nor "European culture" in
            singular. There are several cultures in both parts of
            the Eurasian continent.

            A recent example of one of the Asian cultures
            supporting tyranny is State Shinto during the time
            prior to World War Two, and the Shogunate before that.
            Also, the Pali texts contain many stories about evil
            rulers, so I think there must have been some in India
            as well; and let's not forget that Prince Siddhattha
            actually ran away from home not to risk becoming one.
            (And note: we often end our recitations with "raajaa
            bhavat_u_ dhammiko" - but never with "bhavat_i_"...)

            The culture of any region, whether Asia or some other,
            is not only its lofty treatises, but also the actions
            actually done, which is often something quite
            different. In that respect, I think the distinctions
            between continents are negligible.

            Gunnar

            http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto


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          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Gunnar, I do agree on diversity among cultural elements over the Asian subcontinent . In particular, we see religious diversity alongside varying
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 20, 2007
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              Dear Gunnar,

              I do agree on diversity among "cultural elements" over the
              Asian 'subcontinent'. In particular, we see religious diversity
              alongside varying degree of interaction among the Asian communities.
              Multireligious communities had long existed in large parts of Asia,
              including China, India, Japan, Korea, Tibet and Southeast Asia.

              The underlying principle towards this observed cultural phenomenon is
              religious tolerance, which is the result of, I think, the wide spread
              influence of Buddhism (non-violence) and Confucianism (secularism) in
              Asia.

              Even though it is not an easy task, it is such key elements as
              religious tolerance which I would employ in defining an "Asian
              culture".

              Secondly, it is hard for me to accept that a momentary period in a
              nation's history can be used to define its culture. We do not live in
              a perfect world, and we have witnessed tyranny in different places at
              different times. The ascension and even the long reign of a tyrant
              ruler does not constitute support of tyranny (especially in the
              absence of democracy). Also, in my views, Japan of WWII is more a
              colonial evil than a domestic tyrant.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gallmo wrote:

              > I am also not aware of any part of Asian culture which
              > supports tyranny, if you could enlighten us.

              I don't think it is possible to speak about "Asian culture" in
              singular, nor "European culture" in singular. There are several
              cultures in both parts of the Eurasian continent.

              A recent example of one of the Asian cultures supporting tyranny is
              State Shinto during the time prior to World War Two, and the
              Shogunate before that. Also, the Pali texts contain many stories
              about evil rulers, so I think there must have been some in India as
              well; and let's not forget that Prince Siddhattha actually ran away
              from home not to risk becoming one. (And note: we often end our
              recitations with "raajaa bhavat_u_ dhammiko" - but never
              with "bhavat_i_"...)

              The culture of any region, whether Asia or some other, is not only
              its lofty treatises, but also the actions actually done, which is
              often something quite different. In that respect, I think the
              distinctions between continents are negligible.
            • Gunnar Gällmo
              ... I agree (I wouldn t like Sweden to be defined by the Thirty Years War). I just want to avoid over-generalisations, in both directions. Wars can,
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 21, 2007
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                --- Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> skrev:

                > Secondly, it is hard for me to accept that a
                > momentary period in a
                > nation's history can be used to define its culture.

                I agree (I wouldn't like Sweden to be defined by the
                Thirty Years' War). I just want to avoid
                over-generalisations, in both directions. Wars can,
                unfortunately, be found in most cultures. So can lofty
                thoughts. I think both are much older than recorded
                history.

                After all, cultures are built by people, and as the
                Buddha said: the animal is an open field, the human
                being is a jungle. It is, unfortunately, quite normal
                in human history to preach one thing and practice
                another.

                Gunnar

                http://metrobloggen.se/esperanto





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