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DN 31 Translation - part 3

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  • John Kelly
    Dear friends, Here s the next instalment of the DN 31 translation and grammatical analysis: Addasaa kho Bhagavaa Si ngaalaka.m gahapati-putta.m kaalass’ eva
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 10, 2007
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      Dear friends,


      Here's the next instalment of the DN 31 translation and grammatical analysis:


      Addasaa kho Bhagavaa Si"ngaalaka.m gahapati-putta.m kaalass’
      eva vu.t.thaaya Raajagahaa nikkhamitvaa alla-vattha.m alla-kesa.m pa~njalika.m puthuddisaa
      namassanta.m puratthima.m disa.m dakkhi.na.m disa.m pacchima.m disa.m uttara.m disa.m
      he.t.thima.m disa.m uparima.m disa.m.


      addasaa - dis I, aor, 3rd/sg - he saw


      kho - ind emph enc - indeed


      Bhagavaa - m-ant/nom/sg - the Blessed One


      Si"ngaalaka.m- m-a/acc/sg - Sigaalaka


      gahapati-putta.m - gen TP cpd *, m-a/acc/sg -
      young householder


      kaalassa (kaalass’: sandhi elis) - m-a/gen/sg
      - of time


      eva - adv emph - just, very


      vu.t.thaaya - u(d)+(.t).thaa I, ger - having
      emerged


      Raajagahaa - m-a/abl/sg - from Raajagaha


      nikkhamitvaa - ni+(k)kham I, ger - having
      set out


      alla-vattha.m - BB
      cpd *, adj, m-a/acc/sg - wet-clothed


      alla-kesa.m - BB
      cpd *, adj, m-a/acc/sg - with wet hair


      pa~njalika.m - adj,
      m-a/acc/sg - with hands outstretched in
      reverential salutation


      puthu-ddisaa - KD cpd *, f-aa/acc/pl - the
      separate directions


      namassanta.m - namas I, prp, m/acc/sg - worshipping


      puratthima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - eastern


      disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction


      dakkhi.na.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - southern


      disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction


      pacchima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - western


      disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction


      uttara.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - northern


      disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction


      he.t.thima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - nadir


      disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction


      uparima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - zenith


      disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction


      On the way, he saw Sigaalaka worshipping
      the six directions.





      Disvaa Si"ngaalaka.m gahapati-putta.m etad avoca:


      disvaa - (d)dis I, ger - having seen


      Si"ngaalaka.m- m-a/acc/sg - Sigaalaka


      gahapati-putta.m - gen TP cpd *, m-a/acc/sg - to the young householder


      etad - dem pro, n/acc/sg - this


      avoca - vac I, aor, 3rd/sg - he said



      Seeing this, the Buddha said to him:





      “Kin nu tva.m gahapati-putta kaalass’ eva vu.t.thaaya Raajagahaa
      nikkhamitvaa alla-vattho alla-keso pa~njaliko puthuddisaa [PTS Page 181] namassasi
      puratthima.m disa.m … pe … uparima.m disanti?”


      ki.m (kin: sandhi assim) - ind inter - why?


      nu - ind inter enc - is it? (interrogative particle)


      tva.m - 2nd pers pro, nom/sg - you


      gahapati-putta - gen TP cpd *, m-a/voc/sg -
      young householder


      kaalassa (kaalass’: sandhi elis) - m-a/gen/sg
      - of time


      eva - adv emph - just, very


      vu.t.thaaya - u(d)+(.t).thaa I, ger - having
      emerged


      Raajagahaa - m-a/abl/sg - from Raajagaha


      nikkhamitvaa - ni+(k)kham I, ger - having
      set out


      alla-vattho - BB cpd *, adj, m-a/nom/sg
      - wet-clothed


      alla-keso - BB cpd *, adj, m-a/nom/sg
      - with wet hair


      pa~njaliko - adj, m-a/nom/sg - with hands
      outstretched in reverential salutation


      puthu-ddisaa - KD cpd *, f-aa/acc/pl - the
      separate directions


      namassasi - namas I, pres act, 2nd/sg
      - you are worshipping


      puratthima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - eastern


      disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction


      pe - ind - etc.


      uparima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - zenith


      disa.m (disan: sandhi assim)- f-aa/acc/sg
      - direction


      ti (iti) - ind - (end-quote)


      “Young man, why have you risen in the
      early morning and set out from Raajagaha to worship in such a way?”

      With metta,
      John






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • P G Dave
      Dear John, wouldn t gahapati-putta.m mean householder s son rather than young householder... metta,
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 10, 2007
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        Dear John,

        wouldn't "gahapati-putta.m" mean householder's son rather than young
        householder...

        metta,
        ___________________________________________________________



        On 10/10/07, John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear friends,
        >
        > Here's the next instalment of the DN 31 translation and grammatical
        > analysis:
        >
        > Addasaa kho Bhagavaa Si"ngaalaka.m gahapati-putta.m kaalass'
        > eva vu.t.thaaya Raajagahaa nikkhamitvaa alla-vattha.m alla-kesa.mpa~njalika.m puthuddisaa
        > namassanta.m puratthima.m disa.m dakkhi.na.m disa.m pacchima.m disa.m
        > uttara.m disa.m
        > he.t.thima.m disa.m uparima.m disa.m.
        >
        > addasaa - dis I, aor, 3rd/sg - he saw
        >
        > kho - ind emph enc - indeed
        >
        > Bhagavaa - m-ant/nom/sg - the Blessed One
        >
        > Si"ngaalaka.m- m-a/acc/sg - Sigaalaka
        >
        > gahapati-putta.m - gen TP cpd *, m-a/acc/sg -
        > young householder
        >
        > kaalassa (kaalass': sandhi elis) - m-a/gen/sg
        > - of time
        >
        > eva - adv emph - just, very
        >
        > vu.t.thaaya - u(d)+(.t).thaa I, ger - having
        > emerged
        >
        > Raajagahaa - m-a/abl/sg - from Raajagaha
        >
        > nikkhamitvaa - ni+(k)kham I, ger - having
        > set out
        >
        > alla-vattha.m - BB
        > cpd *, adj, m-a/acc/sg - wet-clothed
        >
        > alla-kesa.m - BB
        > cpd *, adj, m-a/acc/sg - with wet hair
        >
        > pa~njalika.m - adj,
        > m-a/acc/sg - with hands outstretched in
        > reverential salutation
        >
        > puthu-ddisaa - KD cpd *, f-aa/acc/pl - the
        > separate directions
        >
        > namassanta.m - namas I, prp, m/acc/sg - worshipping
        >
        > puratthima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - eastern
        >
        > disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction
        >
        > dakkhi.na.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - southern
        >
        > disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction
        >
        > pacchima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - western
        >
        > disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction
        >
        > uttara.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - northern
        >
        > disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction
        >
        > he.t.thima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - nadir
        >
        > disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction
        >
        > uparima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - zenith
        >
        > disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction
        >
        > On the way, he saw Sigaalaka worshipping
        > the six directions.
        >
        > Disvaa Si"ngaalaka.m gahapati-putta.m etad avoca:
        >
        > disvaa - (d)dis I, ger - having seen
        >
        > Si"ngaalaka.m- m-a/acc/sg - Sigaalaka
        >
        > gahapati-putta.m - gen TP cpd *, m-a/acc/sg - to the young householder
        >
        > etad - dem pro, n/acc/sg - this
        >
        > avoca - vac I, aor, 3rd/sg - he said
        >
        > Seeing this, the Buddha said to him:
        >
        > "Kin nu tva.m gahapati-putta kaalass' eva vu.t.thaaya Raajagahaa
        > nikkhamitvaa alla-vattho alla-keso pa~njaliko puthuddisaa [PTS Page 181]
        > namassasi
        > puratthima.m disa.m � pe � uparima.m disanti?"
        >
        > ki.m (kin: sandhi assim) - ind inter - why?
        >
        > nu - ind inter enc - is it? (interrogative particle)
        >
        > tva.m - 2nd pers pro, nom/sg - you
        >
        > gahapati-putta - gen TP cpd *, m-a/voc/sg -
        > young householder
        >
        > kaalassa (kaalass': sandhi elis) - m-a/gen/sg
        > - of time
        >
        > eva - adv emph - just, very
        >
        > vu.t.thaaya - u(d)+(.t).thaa I, ger - having
        > emerged
        >
        > Raajagahaa - m-a/abl/sg - from Raajagaha
        >
        > nikkhamitvaa - ni+(k)kham I, ger - having
        > set out
        >
        > alla-vattho - BB cpd *, adj, m-a/nom/sg
        > - wet-clothed
        >
        > alla-keso - BB cpd *, adj, m-a/nom/sg
        > - with wet hair
        >
        > pa~njaliko - adj, m-a/nom/sg - with hands
        > outstretched in reverential salutation
        >
        > puthu-ddisaa - KD cpd *, f-aa/acc/pl - the
        > separate directions
        >
        > namassasi - namas I, pres act, 2nd/sg
        > - you are worshipping
        >
        > puratthima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - eastern
        >
        > disa.m - f-aa/acc/sg - direction
        >
        > pe - ind - etc.
        >
        > uparima.m - adj, f-aa/acc/sg - zenith
        >
        > disa.m (disan: sandhi assim)- f-aa/acc/sg
        > - direction
        >
        > ti (iti) - ind - (end-quote)
        >
        > "Young man, why have you risen in the
        > early morning and set out from Raajagaha to worship in such a way?"
        >
        > With metta,
        > John
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • DC Wijeratna
        Dear Dave, wouldn t gahapati-putta.m mean householder s son rather than young householder... I agree with you. The Pali word for a young man is maanava or
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 10, 2007
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          Dear Dave,

          "wouldn't "gahapati-putta.m" mean householder's son rather than young
          householder..."

          I agree with you. The Pali word for a young man is maanava or maanavaka.

          I think this error is most probably caused not because the translator didn't know the meaning. I think he elsewhere gives the meaning as householder's son. So what I surmise is that he did it in order to translate it to "idiomatic English".

          But I think it is a grave error in translating ancient text to a modern language. Words have a meaning only within a context. And that cannot be reproduced today, especially in a different tongue.

          Take this example, gahapati, is a generic term by the Buddha to indicate what we might call head of a household, not even a householder. Gahapatiputta really seem to distinguish between a monks and lay people. It really means only that he is a lay person who is not a head of a household. It is same as 'gihii'. In any case, there is no way to bring the word 'young'; puttas also become old!!!

          These are some of my thoughts. I think the solution is to use an agreed term. See Ara.na Vibhanga sutta.

          With mettaa,


          D. G. D. C. Wijeratna



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
          http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • P G Dave
          Dear *DC Wijeratna,* very true. I agree that a free translation makes better reading than a literal translation keeping in mind the fact that every language
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 11, 2007
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            Dear *DC Wijeratna,*

            very true. I agree that a free translation makes better reading than a
            literal translation keeping in mind the fact that every language has its own
            flavour and peculiarities. but, as you rightly point out, here it becomes
            misleading.

            I searched the net for the "Ara.na <http://ara.na/> Vibhanga sutta".
            couldn't find anything.
            If it's not too inconvenient, would u kindly send me an attaced file
            containing the text with an available translation if possible.

            thanks.
            with metta,
            _________________________________________________

            On 10/10/07, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Dave,
            >
            > "wouldn't "gahapati-putta.m" mean householder's son rather than young
            > householder..."
            >
            > I agree with you. The Pali word for a young man is maanava or maanavaka.
            >
            > I think this error is most probably caused not because the translator
            > didn't know the meaning. I think he elsewhere gives the meaning as
            > householder's son. So what I surmise is that he did it in order to translate
            > it to "idiomatic English".
            >
            > But I think it is a grave error in translating ancient text to a modern
            > language. Words have a meaning only within a context. And that cannot be
            > reproduced today, especially in a different tongue.
            >
            > Take this example, gahapati, is a generic term by the Buddha to indicate
            > what we might call head of a household, not even a householder.
            > Gahapatiputta really seem to distinguish between a monks and lay people. It
            > really means only that he is a lay person who is not a head of a household.
            > It is same as 'gihii'. In any case, there is no way to bring the word
            > 'young'; puttas also become old!!!
            >
            > These are some of my thoughts. I think the solution is to use an agreed
            > term. See Ara.na <http://ara.na/> Vibhanga sutta.
            >
            > With mettaa,
            >
            > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
            >
            > __________________________________________________________
            > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
            > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • D C Wijeratna
            Dear Dave, Many thanks for the prompt reply. I am sorry about the slip, not giving the English Name of the Sutta or the reference. There is an English
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 11, 2007
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              Dear Dave,



              Many thanks for the prompt reply.



              I am sorry about the slip, not giving the English Name of the Sutta or the
              reference.



              There is an English translation by the name: �The Exposition of
              Non-conflict� by Bhikkhu ~Naanamoli, BPS publication. You can download that
              from their site. Wheel No. 169. The Sutta is MN 139. Here is the exact
              passage from the Sutta. I am sure you can get hold of the Pali version
              without trouble. VRI CD.



              12. �He should not insist on local languageHYPERLINK \l
              "BM__ftn1"[1][4]. He should not override normal usage.� So it was said. And
              with reference to what was this said?

              And how does there come to be insistence on local language and overriding of
              normal usage?

              Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call the same thing a �dish�
              (paati) or they call it a �bowl� (patta) or they call it a �vessel� (vittha)
              or they call it a �saucer (sarava) or they call it a �pan� (dhaaropa) or
              they call it a �pot� (po.na) or they call it a �mug� (hana) or they call it
              a �basin� (pisiila). So whatever they call it in such and such a locality,
              he speaks accordingly, firmly adhering to and insisting on that, �Only this
              is true, anything else is wrong.� This is how there comes to be insistence
              on local language and overriding of normal usage.

              And how does there come to be non-insistence on local language and
              non-overriding of normal usage?

              Here, bhikkhus, in different localities � they call it a �basin� (pisiila).
              So whatever they call it in such and such a locality, he speaks accordingly
              without adhering, (thus): �These Venerable Ones, it seems, are speaking with
              reference to this.� This is how there comes to be non-insistence on local
              language and non-overriding of normal usage.

              So it was with reference to this that it was said, �He should not insist on
              local language. He should not override normal usage.�



              By the way, this passage has a very deep meaning.



              If you can�t get hold the thing please send me an e-m direct. My e-mail is
              HYPERLINK "mailto:dcwijeratna@..."dcwijeratna@.... I wouldn�t
              want to copy that file and send it to all the Pali group. Most of whom will
              not even look at it.



              By the way, when you said you would translate the Singaalovaada sutta, I
              sent you a letter of appreciation. I haven�t changed my mind. The e-m I sent
              was purely technical.



              If there is anything else, I can do please let me know.



              With mettaa,



              D. C. Wijeratna



              P. S. My friends call me DC


              _____

              HYPERLINK \l "BM__ftnref1"


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              5:11 PM



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Kelly
              Dear Dave and DC, Thanks very much for your comments/feedback on the translation and grammatical analysis of DN 31 that I am sending to the group in small
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 16, 2007
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                Dear Dave and DC,

                Thanks very much for your comments/feedback on the translation and
                grammatical analysis of DN 31 that I am sending to the group in small
                pieces.

                In the detailed word-by-word grammatical analysis we (a group of 3 of
                us) aimed for literal accuracy, whereas in the final translation our
                goal was for idiomatic, readable, modern English. And bear in mind
                that the final translation result was always a consensus by committee
                and not necessarily how I would have rendered the final version myself.

                Clearly "gahapati-putta" literally means "householder's son", but that
                is not how someone would be addressed in modern English, and we chose
                the more colloquial "young man" in the vocative, and "young
                householder" for other cases. I would note too that Bhikkhu Bodhi
                translates "devaputta" as "young deva" rather than "son of a deva", so
                we have a solid precedent.

                All comments are appreciated.

                With metta,
                John
                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "P G Dave" <pgd2507@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear *DC Wijeratna,*
                >
                > very true. I agree that a free translation makes better reading than a
                > literal translation keeping in mind the fact that every language has
                its own
                > flavour and peculiarities. but, as you rightly point out, here it
                becomes
                > misleading.
                >
                > I searched the net for the "Ara.na <http://ara.na/> Vibhanga sutta".
                > couldn't find anything.
                > If it's not too inconvenient, would u kindly send me an attaced file
                > containing the text with an available translation if possible.
                >
                > thanks.
                > with metta,
                > _________________________________________________
                >
                > On 10/10/07, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear Dave,
                > >
                > > "wouldn't "gahapati-putta.m" mean householder's son rather than young
                > > householder..."
                > >
                > > I agree with you. The Pali word for a young man is maanava or
                maanavaka.
                > >
                > > I think this error is most probably caused not because the translator
                > > didn't know the meaning. I think he elsewhere gives the meaning as
                > > householder's son. So what I surmise is that he did it in order to
                translate
                > > it to "idiomatic English".
                > >
                > > But I think it is a grave error in translating ancient text to a
                modern
                > > language. Words have a meaning only within a context. And that
                cannot be
                > > reproduced today, especially in a different tongue.
                > >
                > > Take this example, gahapati, is a generic term by the Buddha to
                indicate
                > > what we might call head of a household, not even a householder.
                > > Gahapatiputta really seem to distinguish between a monks and lay
                people. It
                > > really means only that he is a lay person who is not a head of a
                household.
                > > It is same as 'gihii'. In any case, there is no way to bring the word
                > > 'young'; puttas also become old!!!
                > >
                > > These are some of my thoughts. I think the solution is to use an
                agreed
                > > term. See Ara.na <http://ara.na/> Vibhanga sutta.
                > >
                > > With mettaa,
                > >
                > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________________
                > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Piya Tan
                Dear John, Also in my own translation (http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com), I made a note that by the time the Buddha speaks to Sigala, he is the head of the
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 16, 2007
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                  Dear John,

                  Also in my own translation (http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com), I made
                  a note that by the time the Buddha speaks to Sigala, he is the head of the
                  house. Sigalapita has already passed away.

                  Thanks for your efforts again,

                  Metta,

                  Piya Tan


                  On 10/17/07, John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Dave and DC,
                  >
                  > Thanks very much for your comments/feedback on the translation and
                  > grammatical analysis of DN 31 that I am sending to the group in small
                  > pieces.
                  >
                  > In the detailed word-by-word grammatical analysis we (a group of 3 of
                  > us) aimed for literal accuracy, whereas in the final translation our
                  > goal was for idiomatic, readable, modern English. And bear in mind
                  > that the final translation result was always a consensus by committee
                  > and not necessarily how I would have rendered the final version myself.
                  >
                  > Clearly "gahapati-putta" literally means "householder's son", but that
                  > is not how someone would be addressed in modern English, and we chose
                  > the more colloquial "young man" in the vocative, and "young
                  > householder" for other cases. I would note too that Bhikkhu Bodhi
                  > translates "devaputta" as "young deva" rather than "son of a deva", so
                  > we have a solid precedent.
                  >
                  > All comments are appreciated.
                  >
                  > With metta,
                  > John
                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "P G Dave"
                  > <pgd2507@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear *DC Wijeratna,*
                  > >
                  > > very true. I agree that a free translation makes better reading than a
                  > > literal translation keeping in mind the fact that every language has
                  > its own
                  > > flavour and peculiarities. but, as you rightly point out, here it
                  > becomes
                  > > misleading.
                  > >
                  > > I searched the net for the "Ara.na <http://ara.na/> Vibhanga sutta".
                  > > couldn't find anything.
                  > > If it's not too inconvenient, would u kindly send me an attaced file
                  > > containing the text with an available translation if possible.
                  > >
                  > > thanks.
                  > > with metta,
                  > > _________________________________________________
                  > >
                  > > On 10/10/07, DC Wijeratna <dcwijeratna@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Dear Dave,
                  > > >
                  > > > "wouldn't "gahapati-putta.m" mean householder's son rather than young
                  > > > householder..."
                  > > >
                  > > > I agree with you. The Pali word for a young man is maanava or
                  > maanavaka.
                  > > >
                  > > > I think this error is most probably caused not because the translator
                  > > > didn't know the meaning. I think he elsewhere gives the meaning as
                  > > > householder's son. So what I surmise is that he did it in order to
                  > translate
                  > > > it to "idiomatic English".
                  > > >
                  > > > But I think it is a grave error in translating ancient text to a
                  > modern
                  > > > language. Words have a meaning only within a context. And that
                  > cannot be
                  > > > reproduced today, especially in a different tongue.
                  > > >
                  > > > Take this example, gahapati, is a generic term by the Buddha to
                  > indicate
                  > > > what we might call head of a household, not even a householder.
                  > > > Gahapatiputta really seem to distinguish between a monks and lay
                  > people. It
                  > > > really means only that he is a lay person who is not a head of a
                  > household.
                  > > > It is same as 'gihii'. In any case, there is no way to bring the word
                  > > > 'young'; puttas also become old!!!
                  > > >
                  > > > These are some of my thoughts. I think the solution is to use an
                  > agreed
                  > > > term. See Ara.na <http://ara.na/> Vibhanga sutta.
                  > > >
                  > > > With mettaa,
                  > > >
                  > > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna
                  > > >
                  > > > __________________________________________________________
                  > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
                  > > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  The Minding Centre
                  Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
                  Singapore 650644
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