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Re: [Pali] Saa pana cittassa na attano. Wrong view and Conceit.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Johnny, ... N: These two akusala cetasikas take many kinds of objects but they are different. I shall clarify this with examples, quoting from my
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 6 2:46 AM
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      Dear Johnny,

      Op 4-jul-2007, om 18:18 heeft johnny pruitt het volgende geschreven:

      > What object does wrong view take and what object does conceit take.
      -------------
      N: These two akusala cetasikas take many kinds of objects but they
      are different. I shall clarify this with examples, quoting from my
      'Cetasikas' you find on Rob K's web, where you can find details in Ch
      18, wrong view and Ch 19 Conceit.

      <http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas19.html>
      ------------

      N: There are many kinds of wrong views and they are of different
      degrees. There kinds of wrong view are unwholesome courses of action,
      akusala kamma patha, through the mind, and these are capable of
      causing an unhappy rebirth. They are the following three views:

      1) There is no result of kamma (natthika-ditthi)
      2) There are no causes (in happening, ahetuka-ditthi)
      3) There is no such thing as kamma ( akiriya-ditthi)

      Although these three views are distinct from each other, they are
      nevertheless related. When one does not see kamma as cause one does
      not see its result either, and when one does not see the result of
      kamma, one does not see kamma as cause either ...

      There are many other kinds of wrong views and, although they
      are not akusala kamma patha, they are still dangerous. The scriptures
      often refer to the eternalistic view and to the annihilationistic
      view. Eternalism is the belief that there is a "self" who is
      permanent. Annihilationism is the belief that there is a "self" who
      will be annihilated after death. There is also a "semi-eternalistic
      view": one holds that some phenomena are eternal while others are
      not. One may sometimes cling to the eternalistic view and sometimes
      to the annihilistic view.

      In the Brahma-jala-sutta ("The All-Embracing Net of Views" 1,
      The Dialogues of the Buddha I, no, 1) sixty-two kinds of Wrong view
      are mentioned. Of these there are eighteen speculative theories
      concerning the past, and forty-four concerning the future. There are
      speculative theories about the world being finite or infinite, about
      the origin of the " soul" or the world. There are speculations about
      good and evil and about nibbana.

      "Personality-belief" or "sakkaya-ditthi" is a basis for many kinds of
      wrong views.
      There are four kinds of the wrong view of personality-belief,
      sakkaya-ditthi, concerning each of the five khandhas, thus, there
      are twenty kinds of this wrong view in all (1 Dhammasangani, 1003).
      One may take each of the khandhas for self, regard the self as
      possessing them, the khandhas as being in the self or the self as
      being contained in the khandhas.
      One may cling with wrong view to the idea of "I see", "my body",
      "my will". But they are only khandhas, conditioned elements which
      arise and fall away.
      -----------
      Conceit: We read in the Dhammasangani (1116) :

      What is the Fetter of conceit?
      Conceit at the thought "I am the better man" conceit at the
      thought "I am as good (as they)"; conceit at the thought "I am
      lowly"- all such sort of conceit, overweening conceitedness,
      loftiness, haughtiness, flaunting a flag, assumption, desire of the
      heart for self-advertisement- this is called conceit.

      Even when we do not compare ourselves with someone else we may find
      ourselves important and then there is conceit. Conceit always goes
      together with attachment, with clinging. It can arise with the four
      types of lobha-mula-citta which are not accompanied
      by wrong view. Conceit and wrong view are different realities which
      do not arise at the same time. When one takes a reality for permanent
      or for self there is wrong view and there cannot be at the same time
      conceit, which is pride or self-assertion. This does not mean that
      there is conceit every time lobha-mula-citta without wrong view
      arises. Lobha-mula-citta without wrong view may sometimes be
      accompanied by conceit, sometimes not.

      The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga, Chapter 17, 832) gives a very
      revealing list of the objects on account of which pride and
      conceit can arise (2 Pride is the translation of "mada", which
      literally means intoxication. In 843, 844, the same list of objects
      is mentioned as being objects for pride (mada) and
      conceit. In 845 pride is defined in the same way as conceit.):

      Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health: pride of youth;
      pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being
      respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of
      wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride of
      intelligence: pride of being a knowledgeable authority; pride of
      being (a regular) alms collector; pride of being not despised; pride
      of posture (bearing); pride of accomplishment; pride of popularity:
      pride of being moral; pride of jhana; pride of dexterity: pride of
      being tall; pride of (bodily) proportion; pride of form; pride of
      (bodily) perfection...

      All these objects can be a source of intoxication and conceit and we
      should consider them in daily life, that is why they are enumerated.
      Conceit can arise on account of each of the objects which are
      experienced through the senses. When we experience a pleasant object
      through one of the senses we may have conceit because of that; we may
      think ourselves superior in comparison with someone else who did not
      receive such a pleasant object. At that moment we forget that the
      experience of pleasant objects through the senses is only vipaka,
      conditioned by kamma. Thus, there is no reason to be proud of a
      pleasant experience. But ignorance covers up the truth, it conditions
      the arising of all sorts of akusala dhammas. Conceit can arise not
      only on account of the objects experienced through the senses, but
      also on account of the senses themselves. When we see someone who is
      blind there may be pride on account of our eyesense.

      One may be proud because of one's birth, because of the family
      into which one is born. Or conceit may arise on account of the race
      one belongs to, on account of one's nationality or the colour of
      one's skin. Some people may find the colour of their skin better that
      the colour of someone else's skin. That is conceit. Conceit may also
      arise because of beauty, possessions, rank or work. Or because of
      one's skills, knowledge, education or wisdom. There may be the wish
      to "advertise" oneself because of these things. We like to be
      honoured and praised and the worst thing which can happen to us is to
      be forgotten, to be overlooked. We think of ourselves as "somebody"
      and we do not want to be treated as "nobody". Our actions, speech and
      thoughts are often motivated
      by an idea of competition; we may not want other people to be better
      than we are, even with regard to kusala and right understanding. >

      Perhaps these examples make it clear that wrong view and conceit are
      different.
      Nina.







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