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Re: [Pali] Abhidhammattha Sangho - Citta Summary

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Gabriel, Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 19, 2007
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      Dear Gabriel,

      Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
      Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
      (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca
      aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini
      upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti
      vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha.
      --------
      N: jhaana can have several meanings. In the text above it is either
      meditation on the meditation subjects of samatha and also
      contemplation on the three general characteristics of realities in
      vipassanaa. Thus jhaayathaa can be translated as: meditate, or
      contemplate.
      Samaadhi is ekaggataa cetasika, concentration, accompanying each
      citta. Depending on the citta it may be akusala or kusala or
      indeterminate (avyaakata).
      In Samatha it is concentration on the meditation subject of samatha
      and when it is highly developed it accompanies jhaanacitta.
      In vipassana it is concentration of the eightfold Path and its object
      is a nama or rupa that appears at the present moment. When it
      accompanies lokuttara citta, nibbaana is the object, it is of a high
      degree, equal to the first stage of jhanacitta also for those who did
      not develop mundane jhaana. For those who developed different stages
      of jhaana, lokuttara citta can be accompanied by jhanafactors,
      including samadhi, of the different stages of jhana.
      Nina.


      Op 16-jun-2007, om 4:59 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

      > Regarding Jhana, what would be its definition in pali language?
      >
      > What would be the difference between jhana, Samadhi and vipassana?
      > And their
      > definitions in the pali canon?



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lotsawanet
      Dear Nina, thanks for the explanation! If I understand right..please correct if not... Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the practices
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 24, 2007
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        Dear Nina, thanks for the explanation!



        If I understand right..please correct if not...

        Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the practices of
        samatha and vipassanaa...is that right?

        So they would be a kind of different instruments with different qualities
        that offers the support to see things in different ways using either the
        samatha or vipassanaa method, am right?



        Thanks again, with regards

        gabriel





        From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
        van Gorkom
        Sent: 19 June 2007 20:57
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Pali] Abhidhammattha Sangho - Citta Summary



        Dear Gabriel,

        Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
        Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
        (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca
        aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini
        upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti
        vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha.
        --------
        N: jhaana can have several meanings. In the text above it is either
        meditation on the meditation subjects of samatha and also
        contemplation on the three general characteristics of realities in
        vipassanaa. Thus jhaayathaa can be translated as: meditate, or
        contemplate.
        Samaadhi is ekaggataa cetasika, concentration, accompanying each
        citta. Depending on the citta it may be akusala or kusala or
        indeterminate (avyaakata).
        In Samatha it is concentration on the meditation subject of samatha
        and when it is highly developed it accompanies jhaanacitta.
        In vipassana it is concentration of the eightfold Path and its object
        is a nama or rupa that appears at the present moment. When it
        accompanies lokuttara citta, nibbaana is the object, it is of a high
        degree, equal to the first stage of jhanacitta also for those who did
        not develop mundane jhaana. For those who developed different stages
        of jhaana, lokuttara citta can be accompanied by jhanafactors,
        including samadhi, of the different stages of jhana.
        Nina.

        Op 16-jun-2007, om 4:59 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

        > Regarding Jhana, what would be its definition in pali language?
        >
        > What would be the difference between jhana, Samadhi and vipassana?
        > And their
        > definitions in the pali canon?

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lotsawanet
        While studying the etymology of the word yogi in India I found difficulty to encounter it in the Buddhist canon. Could just find the following passage:
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 24, 2007
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          While studying the etymology of the word yogi in India I found difficulty to
          encounter it in the Buddhist canon.

          Could just find the following passage:



          Yogavacaro pancindriyani avikkhepe patitthapeti,...(patisambhida.
          1.4.4.17.62)



          What would this sentence means?



          In the Hinduism an yogi would be one that has achieved the yoga, or the
          union between the individual self and the universal self, as to say just one
          of the meanings of the word regarding the different darsanas
          (schools-systems) of Hinduism.

          Thus the word is used in the pali canon? If yes, in wich way?



          With regards, Gabriel.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Gabriel, ... Nina: The matter is more complex. In the Pa.t.thaana, the Book of the Abhidhamma on Conditional Relations, jhaana-paccaya is one of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 29, 2007
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            Dear Gabriel,
            -------
            Op 24-jun-2007, om 9:49 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:
            > Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the
            > practices of
            > samatha and vipassanaa...is that right?
            >
            > So they would be a kind of different instruments with different
            > qualities
            > that offers the support to see things in different ways using
            > either the
            > samatha or vipassanaa method, am right?


            Nina: The matter is more complex.
            In the Pa.t.thaana, the Book of the Abhidhamma on Conditional
            Relations, jhaana-paccaya is one of the conditioning factors that
            conditions citta and cetasika. I shall quote parts of what I wrote in
            my "Conditions':
            < In the case of jh�na-condition, jh�na-paccaya, the cetasikas which
            are jh�na-factors are the conditioning dhammas which cause the citta
            and accompaying cetasikas, the conditioned dhammas, to fix themselves
            firmly on the object which is experienced. In the �Visuddhimagga�, in
            the section on the development of samatha, tranquil meditation (Ch
            4), five jh�na-factors are summed up, sobhana cetasikas which should
            be developed in order to reach jh�na, absorption. These factors
            assist the citta to be absorbed in the meditation subject. When
            jh�nacitta arises there are no longer sense impressions and there is
            temporary freedom from defilements. Jh�nacitta is of a higher level
            of citta than k�m�vara citta, citta of the sense sphere. The word
            jh�na has been explained as being derived from �jh�yati�, to
            contemplate, or to think closely of an object. Or else �jh�yati� can
            mean to burn (Vis. IV, 119), since the jh�na-factors which are
            developed burn the �hindrances� (akusala cetasikas) away. >
            Jhaayati in the sense of burning is from another stem.

            < The jh�na-factors which are developed in samatha are sobhana
            cetasikas, they have to be developed together with pa��� which knows
            the way to develop calm, so that absorption can be attained. However,
            jh�na-factors can also be taken in a wider sense, they can even be
            akusala. That is why the �Dhammasanga�i� mentions in the �Summary�
            jh�na-factors arising not only with the mah�-kusala cittas which are
            accompanied by pa���, but also with those which are unaccompanied by
            pa���, ��.na-vippayutta, as well as with each of the akusala cittas.
            Not only kusala citta but also akusala citta needs jh�na-factors
            which assist the citta to be firmly fixed on an object. >
            < The �Visuddhimagga� (Ch IV) mentions five of the seven jh�na-
            factors, in that case sobhana cetasikas, which have to be developed
            in samatha with the purpose of attaining jh�na. However, there must
            be pa��� which knows the characteristics of those particular jh�na-
            factors and which knows the way to develop calm with a suitable
            meditation subject. One will not attain true calm merely by sitting
            and trying to concentrate on one object. There are forty meditation
            subjects of samatha and it depends on the individual which subject is
            suitable as a means to develop calm (Vis. Ch IV-Ch X). For the
            development of samatha it is essential that there is pa��� which
            knows exactly when there is akusala citta and when there is kusala
            citta with calm. The sobhana jh�na-factors have each their own
            function in inhibiting the hindrances so that calm can be developed. >
            < Sam�dhi, concentration, developed in samatha, is samm�-sam�dhi,
            which is right concentration on the meditation subject. It inhibits
            the hindrance which is sensuous desire (k�ma-cchandha). As calm grows
            sam�dhi also develops. There is miccha-sam�dhi, wrong concentration,
            and samm�-sam�dhi, right concentration. If there is no pa��� which
            knows precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta,
            wrong concentration can be taken for right concentration. Someone may
            mistakenly believe that there is calm when he just sits and for
            example looks for a long time at a kasina (disk) which is among the
            meditation subjects of samatha. Instead of true calm which is
            wholesome there is clinging to quietness.

            Not merely intellectual understanding of the jh�na-factors is needed
            for the development of calm but there must also be right
            understanding which discerns precisely their different
            characteristics. When one underestimates the difficulty of the
            development of jh�na there is bound to be wrong concentration. >

            < Jh�na-factors which are sobhana condition each kusala citta, and
            thus they also condition the kusala citta which develops vipassan� by
            way of jh�na-condition. In vipassan� the aim is not the suppression
            of the hindrances by the development of the sobhana jh�na-factors, as
            is the case in samatha. Some people think that the hindrances have to
            be suppressed first before there can be right understanding of n�ma
            and r�pa. In vipassan�, however, right understanding is developed of
            whatever reality appears, also when that reality is a �hindrance�.
            When it appears it does so because it is conditioned. All conditioned
            realities have to be known as they are, as non-self. At the moment of
            right understanding of the characteristic of a hindrance such as
            desire or ill will, the citta is kusala citta and there is no
            hindrance.>

            < Those who are proficient in jh�na and also develop insight can take
            jh�nacitta as object of insight; jh�na is then the basis of insight.
            In that way they can become detached from the idea that jh�nacitta is
            self. >

            Gabriel, does this answer your questions? Do not hesitate to ask again.
            Nina.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lotsawanet
            Dear Nina. Thanks very much for your answer... Any way, I had some felling about the categorization and classification of Samadhi,dhyana, shamata and
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 9 8:35 PM
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              Dear Nina.

              Thanks very much for your answer...
              Any way, I had some felling about the categorization and classification of
              Samadhi,dhyana, shamata and vipassana...

              I find something about four types of Samadhi:

              (1) the concentration issuing in the attainment of the jhanas (absorptions).
              (2) the concentration issuing in the attainment of nana dassana
              (extra-sensory perception).
              (3) the concentration issuing in the attainment of satisampajanna (intent
              awareness).
              (4) the concentration issuing in the attainment of vipassana nana
              (penetrative insight).

              (1 ) The jhanas (absorptions) derived from concentrated tranquillity of body
              and mind are highly conducive to states of equanimity and bliss. In view of
              this, these concentrated- absorptions are only too susceptible of being
              grasped as ends in themselves, when in reality they are to be only regarded
              as a means to an end, and as such merit a primary and distinguished place.

              (2) Nana dassana (extra-sensory perception) is that faculty of perceiving
              things astral. Devoid of this kind of supernormal vision the human horizon
              is inevitably constrained within the limitations of the five sense-organs,
              to say the least. However, the attainment of supernormal vision, too, is
              only too easily grasped as an end in itself, when in fact it is only a
              means.

              (3) Satisampajanna (intent awareness) is that faculty of mindfulness and
              awareness so necessary for keeping the mind in harness and under restrained
              control. Without this incessant control over formations, feelings,
              perceptions, and concepts, consciousness is only too gamely led astray from
              cyclic second to second, the victim of every incident that upsprings.
              However, mind-control in itself is insufficient as to be regarded as an end,
              for although it keeps a constant vigil over random effervencies it does not
              annihi-late them at the source. At best, it serves as a preventative and
              defensive device.

              (4) Vipassana nana (penetrative insight) is that faculty which penetrates to
              the source. As long as this faculty is not attained the mind is not in a
              position to comprehend or understand the scheme in which all things in the
              visible and invisible universe have their relative span. Without this
              objective vision, consciousness is dominated by its own limited subjectivity
              and personal prejudice. It is,finally, only through this faculty that the
              unrealized potential be-comes the actualized reality. That is, the ultimate
              integration of personality and its unrestricted release.

              These four categories of concentration - attainments, however, may be
              resolved under the collective term of Samatha - Vipassana (tranquillized -
              penetrative insight), and shall be dealt with as such.

              As for jhanna...

              Meditation on these subjects is designed so as to winnow the mind from all
              distractions and attachments (amongst which it is incessantly scattered and
              diffused from second to second) and by focusing the attention upon a
              specific subject to attain to tranquility. And not only tranquility but to
              mental equipoise (samatha) and that one-pointed (ekaggata) potential of
              concentrated-absorption called jhana. In this way, jhanna would be a product
              of samatha.

              the goal of samatha is to attain jhana, of which there are eight: 4
              Rupajhanas, 4 Arupajhanas.

              The 4 Rupajhanas are as follows:
              Pathama jhana : a state of mental ease and buoyancy, wherein reason
              and reflection are still effective.
              Dutiya jhana : a state pervasive of bliss, wherein reason and reflection
              have ceased to be effective.
              Tatiya jhana : a state of equanimity, mindful and intent, undisturbed by
              all comings and goings, beings and becomings.
              Catuttha jhana : a state beyond pleasure and pain, wherein the limbs
              become numb and even breathing stops. The mind, however, being translucent
              and keen.

              The 4 Arupajhanas are 'formless' attainments (samapatti):
              Akasananca ayatana jhana : a state wherein only the infinity of space
              is experienced.
              Vinnanananca ayatana jhana : a state wherein only the infinity of
              consciousness is experienced.
              Akincanna ayatana jhana : a state wherein only voidness is
              experienced.
              Nevasanna nasanna ayatana jhana : a state wherein neither perception
              nor non-perception can be said to be effective.

              So could we say that jhanna in their eight levels is the first type of
              samaddhi?
              And the attainment of that is reached by the development of shamata?

              Also, could we say that the attainment of the third and forth Samadhi is
              reached by the development of vipassana practice?
              Could we categorize in this way?

              Thanks again, sincerely
              Gabriel


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
              van Gorkom
              Sent: 29 June 2007 19:45
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Abhidhammattha Sangho - Citta Summary

              Dear Gabriel,
              -------
              Op 24-jun-2007, om 9:49 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:
              > Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the
              > practices of
              > samatha and vipassanaa...is that right?
              >
              > So they would be a kind of different instruments with different
              > qualities
              > that offers the support to see things in different ways using
              > either the
              > samatha or vipassanaa method, am right?


              Nina: The matter is more complex.
              In the Pa.t.thaana, the Book of the Abhidhamma on Conditional
              Relations, jhaana-paccaya is one of the conditioning factors that
              conditions citta and cetasika. I shall quote parts of what I wrote in
              my "Conditions':
              < In the case of jhåna-condition, jhåna-paccaya, the cetasikas which
              are jhåna-factors are the conditioning dhammas which cause the citta
              and accompaying cetasikas, the conditioned dhammas, to fix themselves
              firmly on the object which is experienced. In the “Visuddhimagga”, in
              the section on the development of samatha, tranquil meditation (Ch
              4), five jhåna-factors are summed up, sobhana cetasikas which should
              be developed in order to reach jhåna, absorption. These factors
              assist the citta to be absorbed in the meditation subject. When
              jhånacitta arises there are no longer sense impressions and there is
              temporary freedom from defilements. Jhånacitta is of a higher level
              of citta than kåmåvara citta, citta of the sense sphere. The word
              jhåna has been explained as being derived from “jhåyati”, to
              contemplate, or to think closely of an object. Or else “jhåyati” can
              mean to burn (Vis. IV, 119), since the jhåna-factors which are
              developed burn the “hindrances” (akusala cetasikas) away. >
              Jhaayati in the sense of burning is from another stem.

              < The jhåna-factors which are developed in samatha are sobhana
              cetasikas, they have to be developed together with paññå which knows
              the way to develop calm, so that absorption can be attained. However,
              jhåna-factors can also be taken in a wider sense, they can even be
              akusala. That is why the “Dhammasangaùi” mentions in the “Summary”
              jhåna-factors arising not only with the mahå-kusala cittas which are
              accompanied by paññå, but also with those which are unaccompanied by
              paññå, ñå.na-vippayutta, as well as with each of the akusala cittas.
              Not only kusala citta but also akusala citta needs jhåna-factors
              which assist the citta to be firmly fixed on an object. >
              < The “Visuddhimagga” (Ch IV) mentions five of the seven jhåna-
              factors, in that case sobhana cetasikas, which have to be developed
              in samatha with the purpose of attaining jhåna. However, there must
              be paññå which knows the characteristics of those particular jhåna-
              factors and which knows the way to develop calm with a suitable
              meditation subject. One will not attain true calm merely by sitting
              and trying to concentrate on one object. There are forty meditation
              subjects of samatha and it depends on the individual which subject is
              suitable as a means to develop calm (Vis. Ch IV-Ch X). For the
              development of samatha it is essential that there is paññå which
              knows exactly when there is akusala citta and when there is kusala
              citta with calm. The sobhana jhåna-factors have each their own
              function in inhibiting the hindrances so that calm can be developed. >
              < Samådhi, concentration, developed in samatha, is sammå-samådhi,
              which is right concentration on the meditation subject. It inhibits
              the hindrance which is sensuous desire (kåma-cchandha). As calm grows
              samådhi also develops. There is miccha-samådhi, wrong concentration,
              and sammå-samådhi, right concentration. If there is no paññå which
              knows precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta,
              wrong concentration can be taken for right concentration. Someone may
              mistakenly believe that there is calm when he just sits and for
              example looks for a long time at a kasina (disk) which is among the
              meditation subjects of samatha. Instead of true calm which is
              wholesome there is clinging to quietness.

              Not merely intellectual understanding of the jhåna-factors is needed
              for the development of calm but there must also be right
              understanding which discerns precisely their different
              characteristics. When one underestimates the difficulty of the
              development of jhåna there is bound to be wrong concentration. >

              < Jhåna-factors which are sobhana condition each kusala citta, and
              thus they also condition the kusala citta which develops vipassanå by
              way of jhåna-condition. In vipassanå the aim is not the suppression
              of the hindrances by the development of the sobhana jhåna-factors, as
              is the case in samatha. Some people think that the hindrances have to
              be suppressed first before there can be right understanding of nåma
              and rúpa. In vipassanå, however, right understanding is developed of
              whatever reality appears, also when that reality is a “hindrance”.
              When it appears it does so because it is conditioned. All conditioned
              realities have to be known as they are, as non-self. At the moment of
              right understanding of the characteristic of a hindrance such as
              desire or ill will, the citta is kusala citta and there is no
              hindrance.>

              < Those who are proficient in jhåna and also develop insight can take
              jhånacitta as object of insight; jhåna is then the basis of insight.
              In that way they can become detached from the idea that jhånacitta is
              self. >

              Gabriel, does this answer your questions? Do not hesitate to ask again.
              Nina.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Gabriel, thank you for your post. I cannot answer very extensively since I will be off for a week this Saturday. ... G: So could we say that jhanna in
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 11 7:39 AM
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                Dear Gabriel,
                thank you for your post.
                I cannot answer very extensively since I will be off for a week this
                Saturday.

                Op 10-jul-2007, om 5:35 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

                > I find something about four types of Samadhi:
                >
                > (1) the concentration issuing in the attainment of the jhanas
                > (absorptions).
                > (2) the concentration issuing in the attainment of nana dassana
                > (extra-sensory perception).
                > (3) the concentration issuing in the attainment of satisampajanna
                > (intent
                > awareness).
                > (4) the concentration issuing in the attainment of vipassana nana
                > (penetrative insight).
                --------
                G: So could we say that jhanna in their eight levels is the first
                type of
                samaddhi?
                And the attainment of that is reached by the development of samatha?
                ------
                N: Yes.
                ----------

                G: Also, could we say that the attainment of the third and forth
                Samadhi is
                reached by the development of vipassana practice?
                Could we categorize in this way?
                ---------
                N: I remember that this was mentioned in a sutta but now I have no
                time to trace this.
                When speaking about vipassana I think of samaadhi of the eightfold
                Path that is developed with the other factors, especially right
                understanding of the eightfold Path. Then the object of samaadhi is a
                nama or rupa that appears at the present moment, such as visible
                object, seeing, sound, etc. The goal is to realize them as
                impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. Instead of emphasizing mind-control
                I would rather say that understanding is essential.
                Samaadhi is a cetasika arising with each citta but Now we see that it
                can be very different, depending on the citta it accompanies.
                Samaadhi in jhaana is different from samaadhi of the eightfold Path
                and their objects are altogether different.
                When we read in the texts about samaadhi we should be very careful
                and look at the context, and also consult the ancient commentaries so
                that we do not misunderstand its meaning.
                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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