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RE: [Pali] Abhidhammattha Sangho - Citta Summary

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  • Lotsawanet
    Dear all, Regarding Jhana, what would be its definition in pali language? What would be the difference between jhana, Samadhi and vipassana? And their
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 15, 2007
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      Dear all,



      Regarding Jhana, what would be its definition in pali language?

      What would be the difference between jhana, Samadhi and vipassana? And their
      definitions in the pali canon?



      Thanks, Gabriel



      From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      bhagatyojana
      Sent: 16 June 2007 01:48
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Pali] Abhidhammattha Sangho - Citta Summary




      In the first chapter of Abhidhammattha Sangho by Anurudha Thera , the
      citta summary is as below :

      "Ekadasavidham tsama - pathamadikam'iritam

      Jhanam'ekekam ante tu -tevisatividham bhave "

      translated by Narada Thera as

      " Thus the Jhanas begining from the first amount to eleven, they say.
      The last Jhana(i.e. the fifth) totals twenty-three"

      Please explain how we arrive at the above mentioned number of Jhanas and
      which are they?

      Metta,

      Dr. Yojana





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Dr. Yojana, The Commentary (Summary of the topics of abhidhamma and commentary, transl. by Wijeratne and Gethin, PTS);
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 16, 2007
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        Dear Dr. Yojana,
        The Commentary (Summary of the topics of abhidhamma and commentary,
        transl. by Wijeratne and Gethin, PTS); <Each ordinary jhaana ,
        beginning with the first is threefold and [each] transcendent jhaan
        is eightfold, [making each one] elevenfold; but the last jhaana is
        twenty-threefold: 'three formsphere, twelve formless-sphere and eight
        transcendent [jhaanas] is what is meant.>
        N: for the first (mundane)jhana we have kusala jhaanacitta, vipaaka-
        jhaanacitta and kiriya jhaanacitta.
        As to lokuttara jhaana, there are eight lokuttara cittas accompanied
        by the factors of the first jhaana. This occurs, no matter whether
        that person has first developed mundane jhana or not. The
        concentration factor has the same intensity as the first jhaana, but
        nibbaana is the object.

        As to the fifth jhaana: there are three ruupajhaanacittas of the
        fifth stage (kusasla, vipaaka kiriya), there are twelve aruupa-
        jhaanacittas for the four stages of aruupajhaana, but they have the
        same jhaanafactors as the fifth ruupa-jhaana. There are twelve,
        because they are of the jaatis that are kusala, vipaaka and kiriya
        for each of the four stages.
        There are eight lokuttara jhaanacittas with jhaanafactors of the
        fifth ruupajhaana. Altogether these are twentythree fold.
        Nina.
        Op 15-jun-2007, om 22:18 heeft bhagatyojana het volgende geschreven:

        > "Ekadasavidham tsama - pathamadikam'iritam
        >
        > Jhanam'ekekam ante tu -tevisatividham bhave "
        >
        > translated by Narada Thera as
        >
        > " Thus the Jhanas begining from the first amount to eleven, they say.
        > The last Jhana(i.e. the fifth) totals twenty-three"
        >
        > Please explain how we arrive at the above mentioned number of
        > Jhanas and
        > which are they?



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Gabriel, Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 19, 2007
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          Dear Gabriel,

          Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
          Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
          (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca
          aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini
          upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti
          vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha.
          --------
          N: jhaana can have several meanings. In the text above it is either
          meditation on the meditation subjects of samatha and also
          contemplation on the three general characteristics of realities in
          vipassanaa. Thus jhaayathaa can be translated as: meditate, or
          contemplate.
          Samaadhi is ekaggataa cetasika, concentration, accompanying each
          citta. Depending on the citta it may be akusala or kusala or
          indeterminate (avyaakata).
          In Samatha it is concentration on the meditation subject of samatha
          and when it is highly developed it accompanies jhaanacitta.
          In vipassana it is concentration of the eightfold Path and its object
          is a nama or rupa that appears at the present moment. When it
          accompanies lokuttara citta, nibbaana is the object, it is of a high
          degree, equal to the first stage of jhanacitta also for those who did
          not develop mundane jhaana. For those who developed different stages
          of jhaana, lokuttara citta can be accompanied by jhanafactors,
          including samadhi, of the different stages of jhana.
          Nina.


          Op 16-jun-2007, om 4:59 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

          > Regarding Jhana, what would be its definition in pali language?
          >
          > What would be the difference between jhana, Samadhi and vipassana?
          > And their
          > definitions in the pali canon?



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lotsawanet
          Dear Nina, thanks for the explanation! If I understand right..please correct if not... Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the practices
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 24, 2007
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            Dear Nina, thanks for the explanation!



            If I understand right..please correct if not...

            Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the practices of
            samatha and vipassanaa...is that right?

            So they would be a kind of different instruments with different qualities
            that offers the support to see things in different ways using either the
            samatha or vipassanaa method, am right?



            Thanks again, with regards

            gabriel





            From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
            van Gorkom
            Sent: 19 June 2007 20:57
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Pali] Abhidhammattha Sangho - Citta Summary



            Dear Gabriel,

            Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8):
            Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi
            (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca
            aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini
            upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti
            vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha.
            --------
            N: jhaana can have several meanings. In the text above it is either
            meditation on the meditation subjects of samatha and also
            contemplation on the three general characteristics of realities in
            vipassanaa. Thus jhaayathaa can be translated as: meditate, or
            contemplate.
            Samaadhi is ekaggataa cetasika, concentration, accompanying each
            citta. Depending on the citta it may be akusala or kusala or
            indeterminate (avyaakata).
            In Samatha it is concentration on the meditation subject of samatha
            and when it is highly developed it accompanies jhaanacitta.
            In vipassana it is concentration of the eightfold Path and its object
            is a nama or rupa that appears at the present moment. When it
            accompanies lokuttara citta, nibbaana is the object, it is of a high
            degree, equal to the first stage of jhanacitta also for those who did
            not develop mundane jhaana. For those who developed different stages
            of jhaana, lokuttara citta can be accompanied by jhanafactors,
            including samadhi, of the different stages of jhana.
            Nina.

            Op 16-jun-2007, om 4:59 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

            > Regarding Jhana, what would be its definition in pali language?
            >
            > What would be the difference between jhana, Samadhi and vipassana?
            > And their
            > definitions in the pali canon?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lotsawanet
            While studying the etymology of the word yogi in India I found difficulty to encounter it in the Buddhist canon. Could just find the following passage:
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 24, 2007
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              While studying the etymology of the word yogi in India I found difficulty to
              encounter it in the Buddhist canon.

              Could just find the following passage:



              Yogavacaro pancindriyani avikkhepe patitthapeti,...(patisambhida.
              1.4.4.17.62)



              What would this sentence means?



              In the Hinduism an yogi would be one that has achieved the yoga, or the
              union between the individual self and the universal self, as to say just one
              of the meanings of the word regarding the different darsanas
              (schools-systems) of Hinduism.

              Thus the word is used in the pali canon? If yes, in wich way?



              With regards, Gabriel.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Gabriel, ... Nina: The matter is more complex. In the Pa.t.thaana, the Book of the Abhidhamma on Conditional Relations, jhaana-paccaya is one of the
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 29, 2007
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                Dear Gabriel,
                -------
                Op 24-jun-2007, om 9:49 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:
                > Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the
                > practices of
                > samatha and vipassanaa...is that right?
                >
                > So they would be a kind of different instruments with different
                > qualities
                > that offers the support to see things in different ways using
                > either the
                > samatha or vipassanaa method, am right?


                Nina: The matter is more complex.
                In the Pa.t.thaana, the Book of the Abhidhamma on Conditional
                Relations, jhaana-paccaya is one of the conditioning factors that
                conditions citta and cetasika. I shall quote parts of what I wrote in
                my "Conditions':
                < In the case of jh�na-condition, jh�na-paccaya, the cetasikas which
                are jh�na-factors are the conditioning dhammas which cause the citta
                and accompaying cetasikas, the conditioned dhammas, to fix themselves
                firmly on the object which is experienced. In the �Visuddhimagga�, in
                the section on the development of samatha, tranquil meditation (Ch
                4), five jh�na-factors are summed up, sobhana cetasikas which should
                be developed in order to reach jh�na, absorption. These factors
                assist the citta to be absorbed in the meditation subject. When
                jh�nacitta arises there are no longer sense impressions and there is
                temporary freedom from defilements. Jh�nacitta is of a higher level
                of citta than k�m�vara citta, citta of the sense sphere. The word
                jh�na has been explained as being derived from �jh�yati�, to
                contemplate, or to think closely of an object. Or else �jh�yati� can
                mean to burn (Vis. IV, 119), since the jh�na-factors which are
                developed burn the �hindrances� (akusala cetasikas) away. >
                Jhaayati in the sense of burning is from another stem.

                < The jh�na-factors which are developed in samatha are sobhana
                cetasikas, they have to be developed together with pa��� which knows
                the way to develop calm, so that absorption can be attained. However,
                jh�na-factors can also be taken in a wider sense, they can even be
                akusala. That is why the �Dhammasanga�i� mentions in the �Summary�
                jh�na-factors arising not only with the mah�-kusala cittas which are
                accompanied by pa���, but also with those which are unaccompanied by
                pa���, ��.na-vippayutta, as well as with each of the akusala cittas.
                Not only kusala citta but also akusala citta needs jh�na-factors
                which assist the citta to be firmly fixed on an object. >
                < The �Visuddhimagga� (Ch IV) mentions five of the seven jh�na-
                factors, in that case sobhana cetasikas, which have to be developed
                in samatha with the purpose of attaining jh�na. However, there must
                be pa��� which knows the characteristics of those particular jh�na-
                factors and which knows the way to develop calm with a suitable
                meditation subject. One will not attain true calm merely by sitting
                and trying to concentrate on one object. There are forty meditation
                subjects of samatha and it depends on the individual which subject is
                suitable as a means to develop calm (Vis. Ch IV-Ch X). For the
                development of samatha it is essential that there is pa��� which
                knows exactly when there is akusala citta and when there is kusala
                citta with calm. The sobhana jh�na-factors have each their own
                function in inhibiting the hindrances so that calm can be developed. >
                < Sam�dhi, concentration, developed in samatha, is samm�-sam�dhi,
                which is right concentration on the meditation subject. It inhibits
                the hindrance which is sensuous desire (k�ma-cchandha). As calm grows
                sam�dhi also develops. There is miccha-sam�dhi, wrong concentration,
                and samm�-sam�dhi, right concentration. If there is no pa��� which
                knows precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta,
                wrong concentration can be taken for right concentration. Someone may
                mistakenly believe that there is calm when he just sits and for
                example looks for a long time at a kasina (disk) which is among the
                meditation subjects of samatha. Instead of true calm which is
                wholesome there is clinging to quietness.

                Not merely intellectual understanding of the jh�na-factors is needed
                for the development of calm but there must also be right
                understanding which discerns precisely their different
                characteristics. When one underestimates the difficulty of the
                development of jh�na there is bound to be wrong concentration. >

                < Jh�na-factors which are sobhana condition each kusala citta, and
                thus they also condition the kusala citta which develops vipassan� by
                way of jh�na-condition. In vipassan� the aim is not the suppression
                of the hindrances by the development of the sobhana jh�na-factors, as
                is the case in samatha. Some people think that the hindrances have to
                be suppressed first before there can be right understanding of n�ma
                and r�pa. In vipassan�, however, right understanding is developed of
                whatever reality appears, also when that reality is a �hindrance�.
                When it appears it does so because it is conditioned. All conditioned
                realities have to be known as they are, as non-self. At the moment of
                right understanding of the characteristic of a hindrance such as
                desire or ill will, the citta is kusala citta and there is no
                hindrance.>

                < Those who are proficient in jh�na and also develop insight can take
                jh�nacitta as object of insight; jh�na is then the basis of insight.
                In that way they can become detached from the idea that jh�nacitta is
                self. >

                Gabriel, does this answer your questions? Do not hesitate to ask again.
                Nina.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lotsawanet
                Dear Nina. Thanks very much for your answer... Any way, I had some felling about the categorization and classification of Samadhi,dhyana, shamata and
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 9, 2007
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                  Dear Nina.

                  Thanks very much for your answer...
                  Any way, I had some felling about the categorization and classification of
                  Samadhi,dhyana, shamata and vipassana...

                  I find something about four types of Samadhi:

                  (1) the concentration issuing in the attainment of the jhanas (absorptions).
                  (2) the concentration issuing in the attainment of nana dassana
                  (extra-sensory perception).
                  (3) the concentration issuing in the attainment of satisampajanna (intent
                  awareness).
                  (4) the concentration issuing in the attainment of vipassana nana
                  (penetrative insight).

                  (1 ) The jhanas (absorptions) derived from concentrated tranquillity of body
                  and mind are highly conducive to states of equanimity and bliss. In view of
                  this, these concentrated- absorptions are only too susceptible of being
                  grasped as ends in themselves, when in reality they are to be only regarded
                  as a means to an end, and as such merit a primary and distinguished place.

                  (2) Nana dassana (extra-sensory perception) is that faculty of perceiving
                  things astral. Devoid of this kind of supernormal vision the human horizon
                  is inevitably constrained within the limitations of the five sense-organs,
                  to say the least. However, the attainment of supernormal vision, too, is
                  only too easily grasped as an end in itself, when in fact it is only a
                  means.

                  (3) Satisampajanna (intent awareness) is that faculty of mindfulness and
                  awareness so necessary for keeping the mind in harness and under restrained
                  control. Without this incessant control over formations, feelings,
                  perceptions, and concepts, consciousness is only too gamely led astray from
                  cyclic second to second, the victim of every incident that upsprings.
                  However, mind-control in itself is insufficient as to be regarded as an end,
                  for although it keeps a constant vigil over random effervencies it does not
                  annihi-late them at the source. At best, it serves as a preventative and
                  defensive device.

                  (4) Vipassana nana (penetrative insight) is that faculty which penetrates to
                  the source. As long as this faculty is not attained the mind is not in a
                  position to comprehend or understand the scheme in which all things in the
                  visible and invisible universe have their relative span. Without this
                  objective vision, consciousness is dominated by its own limited subjectivity
                  and personal prejudice. It is,finally, only through this faculty that the
                  unrealized potential be-comes the actualized reality. That is, the ultimate
                  integration of personality and its unrestricted release.

                  These four categories of concentration - attainments, however, may be
                  resolved under the collective term of Samatha - Vipassana (tranquillized -
                  penetrative insight), and shall be dealt with as such.

                  As for jhanna...

                  Meditation on these subjects is designed so as to winnow the mind from all
                  distractions and attachments (amongst which it is incessantly scattered and
                  diffused from second to second) and by focusing the attention upon a
                  specific subject to attain to tranquility. And not only tranquility but to
                  mental equipoise (samatha) and that one-pointed (ekaggata) potential of
                  concentrated-absorption called jhana. In this way, jhanna would be a product
                  of samatha.

                  the goal of samatha is to attain jhana, of which there are eight: 4
                  Rupajhanas, 4 Arupajhanas.

                  The 4 Rupajhanas are as follows:
                  Pathama jhana : a state of mental ease and buoyancy, wherein reason
                  and reflection are still effective.
                  Dutiya jhana : a state pervasive of bliss, wherein reason and reflection
                  have ceased to be effective.
                  Tatiya jhana : a state of equanimity, mindful and intent, undisturbed by
                  all comings and goings, beings and becomings.
                  Catuttha jhana : a state beyond pleasure and pain, wherein the limbs
                  become numb and even breathing stops. The mind, however, being translucent
                  and keen.

                  The 4 Arupajhanas are 'formless' attainments (samapatti):
                  Akasananca ayatana jhana : a state wherein only the infinity of space
                  is experienced.
                  Vinnanananca ayatana jhana : a state wherein only the infinity of
                  consciousness is experienced.
                  Akincanna ayatana jhana : a state wherein only voidness is
                  experienced.
                  Nevasanna nasanna ayatana jhana : a state wherein neither perception
                  nor non-perception can be said to be effective.

                  So could we say that jhanna in their eight levels is the first type of
                  samaddhi?
                  And the attainment of that is reached by the development of shamata?

                  Also, could we say that the attainment of the third and forth Samadhi is
                  reached by the development of vipassana practice?
                  Could we categorize in this way?

                  Thanks again, sincerely
                  Gabriel


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
                  van Gorkom
                  Sent: 29 June 2007 19:45
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] Abhidhammattha Sangho - Citta Summary

                  Dear Gabriel,
                  -------
                  Op 24-jun-2007, om 9:49 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:
                  > Jhaana and Samadhi are different aspects or focus inside the
                  > practices of
                  > samatha and vipassanaa...is that right?
                  >
                  > So they would be a kind of different instruments with different
                  > qualities
                  > that offers the support to see things in different ways using
                  > either the
                  > samatha or vipassanaa method, am right?


                  Nina: The matter is more complex.
                  In the Pa.t.thaana, the Book of the Abhidhamma on Conditional
                  Relations, jhaana-paccaya is one of the conditioning factors that
                  conditions citta and cetasika. I shall quote parts of what I wrote in
                  my "Conditions':
                  < In the case of jhåna-condition, jhåna-paccaya, the cetasikas which
                  are jhåna-factors are the conditioning dhammas which cause the citta
                  and accompaying cetasikas, the conditioned dhammas, to fix themselves
                  firmly on the object which is experienced. In the “Visuddhimagga”, in
                  the section on the development of samatha, tranquil meditation (Ch
                  4), five jhåna-factors are summed up, sobhana cetasikas which should
                  be developed in order to reach jhåna, absorption. These factors
                  assist the citta to be absorbed in the meditation subject. When
                  jhånacitta arises there are no longer sense impressions and there is
                  temporary freedom from defilements. Jhånacitta is of a higher level
                  of citta than kåmåvara citta, citta of the sense sphere. The word
                  jhåna has been explained as being derived from “jhåyati”, to
                  contemplate, or to think closely of an object. Or else “jhåyati” can
                  mean to burn (Vis. IV, 119), since the jhåna-factors which are
                  developed burn the “hindrances” (akusala cetasikas) away. >
                  Jhaayati in the sense of burning is from another stem.

                  < The jhåna-factors which are developed in samatha are sobhana
                  cetasikas, they have to be developed together with paññå which knows
                  the way to develop calm, so that absorption can be attained. However,
                  jhåna-factors can also be taken in a wider sense, they can even be
                  akusala. That is why the “Dhammasangaùi” mentions in the “Summary”
                  jhåna-factors arising not only with the mahå-kusala cittas which are
                  accompanied by paññå, but also with those which are unaccompanied by
                  paññå, ñå.na-vippayutta, as well as with each of the akusala cittas.
                  Not only kusala citta but also akusala citta needs jhåna-factors
                  which assist the citta to be firmly fixed on an object. >
                  < The “Visuddhimagga” (Ch IV) mentions five of the seven jhåna-
                  factors, in that case sobhana cetasikas, which have to be developed
                  in samatha with the purpose of attaining jhåna. However, there must
                  be paññå which knows the characteristics of those particular jhåna-
                  factors and which knows the way to develop calm with a suitable
                  meditation subject. One will not attain true calm merely by sitting
                  and trying to concentrate on one object. There are forty meditation
                  subjects of samatha and it depends on the individual which subject is
                  suitable as a means to develop calm (Vis. Ch IV-Ch X). For the
                  development of samatha it is essential that there is paññå which
                  knows exactly when there is akusala citta and when there is kusala
                  citta with calm. The sobhana jhåna-factors have each their own
                  function in inhibiting the hindrances so that calm can be developed. >
                  < Samådhi, concentration, developed in samatha, is sammå-samådhi,
                  which is right concentration on the meditation subject. It inhibits
                  the hindrance which is sensuous desire (kåma-cchandha). As calm grows
                  samådhi also develops. There is miccha-samådhi, wrong concentration,
                  and sammå-samådhi, right concentration. If there is no paññå which
                  knows precisely when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta,
                  wrong concentration can be taken for right concentration. Someone may
                  mistakenly believe that there is calm when he just sits and for
                  example looks for a long time at a kasina (disk) which is among the
                  meditation subjects of samatha. Instead of true calm which is
                  wholesome there is clinging to quietness.

                  Not merely intellectual understanding of the jhåna-factors is needed
                  for the development of calm but there must also be right
                  understanding which discerns precisely their different
                  characteristics. When one underestimates the difficulty of the
                  development of jhåna there is bound to be wrong concentration. >

                  < Jhåna-factors which are sobhana condition each kusala citta, and
                  thus they also condition the kusala citta which develops vipassanå by
                  way of jhåna-condition. In vipassanå the aim is not the suppression
                  of the hindrances by the development of the sobhana jhåna-factors, as
                  is the case in samatha. Some people think that the hindrances have to
                  be suppressed first before there can be right understanding of nåma
                  and rúpa. In vipassanå, however, right understanding is developed of
                  whatever reality appears, also when that reality is a “hindrance”.
                  When it appears it does so because it is conditioned. All conditioned
                  realities have to be known as they are, as non-self. At the moment of
                  right understanding of the characteristic of a hindrance such as
                  desire or ill will, the citta is kusala citta and there is no
                  hindrance.>

                  < Those who are proficient in jhåna and also develop insight can take
                  jhånacitta as object of insight; jhåna is then the basis of insight.
                  In that way they can become detached from the idea that jhånacitta is
                  self. >

                  Gabriel, does this answer your questions? Do not hesitate to ask again.
                  Nina.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Gabriel, thank you for your post. I cannot answer very extensively since I will be off for a week this Saturday. ... G: So could we say that jhanna in
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 11, 2007
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                    Dear Gabriel,
                    thank you for your post.
                    I cannot answer very extensively since I will be off for a week this
                    Saturday.

                    Op 10-jul-2007, om 5:35 heeft Lotsawanet het volgende geschreven:

                    > I find something about four types of Samadhi:
                    >
                    > (1) the concentration issuing in the attainment of the jhanas
                    > (absorptions).
                    > (2) the concentration issuing in the attainment of nana dassana
                    > (extra-sensory perception).
                    > (3) the concentration issuing in the attainment of satisampajanna
                    > (intent
                    > awareness).
                    > (4) the concentration issuing in the attainment of vipassana nana
                    > (penetrative insight).
                    --------
                    G: So could we say that jhanna in their eight levels is the first
                    type of
                    samaddhi?
                    And the attainment of that is reached by the development of samatha?
                    ------
                    N: Yes.
                    ----------

                    G: Also, could we say that the attainment of the third and forth
                    Samadhi is
                    reached by the development of vipassana practice?
                    Could we categorize in this way?
                    ---------
                    N: I remember that this was mentioned in a sutta but now I have no
                    time to trace this.
                    When speaking about vipassana I think of samaadhi of the eightfold
                    Path that is developed with the other factors, especially right
                    understanding of the eightfold Path. Then the object of samaadhi is a
                    nama or rupa that appears at the present moment, such as visible
                    object, seeing, sound, etc. The goal is to realize them as
                    impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. Instead of emphasizing mind-control
                    I would rather say that understanding is essential.
                    Samaadhi is a cetasika arising with each citta but Now we see that it
                    can be very different, depending on the citta it accompanies.
                    Samaadhi in jhaana is different from samaadhi of the eightfold Path
                    and their objects are altogether different.
                    When we read in the texts about samaadhi we should be very careful
                    and look at the context, and also consult the ancient commentaries so
                    that we do not misunderstand its meaning.
                    Nina.



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