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A New Course in Reading Pali

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  • dipaeightprecepter
    Is there anyone on this list who would be interested in answering some questions regarding the book A New Course in Reading Pali ? I am trying to do the
    Message 1 of 18 , May 10, 2007
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      Is there anyone on this list who would be interested in answering some
      questions regarding the book "A New Course in Reading Pali"? I am
      trying to do the lessons and will have a few questions from time to
      time.

      thanks,
      Dipa
    • johan wijaya
      Dipa, I know someone who might be able to help you answer the upcoming questions. He is one of this group members, but at the moment he s quite difficult to
      Message 2 of 18 , May 10, 2007
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        Dipa,

        I know someone who might be able to help you answer the upcoming questions.
        He is one of this group members, but at the moment he's quite difficult to stay on-line for some reason.
        He is also the one who gave me the book 'A New Course in Reading Pali' plus the CD that was lectured by Bhikkhu Bodhi.

        I'm sure when he's back (probably in June or the end of May), he'll help you. In the meantime, just try to post your questions here....cause I believe the other group members are also quite competent to do so.

        Be patient.

        Johan.



        __________________________________
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      • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
        Hi Dipa, I can answer some questions. Good luck, Dmytro
        Message 3 of 18 , May 11, 2007
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          Hi Dipa,

          I can answer some questions.

          Good luck, Dmytro

          dipaeightprecepter пишет:
          > Is there anyone on this list who would be interested in answering some
          > questions regarding the book "A New Course in Reading Pali"? I am
          > trying to do the lessons and will have a few questions from time to
          > time.
          >
          > thanks,
          > Dipa
          >
          >
          >
          > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
          > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Dipa, like Dmytro, I would be glad to help too. metta, Yong Peng. ... I am trying to do the lessons and will have a few questions from time to time.
          Message 4 of 18 , May 11, 2007
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            Dear Dipa,

            like Dmytro, I would be glad to help too.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dipaeightprecepter wrote:

            I am trying to do the lessons and will have a few questions from time
            to time.
          • Dipa
            Thank you to all of you who have offered to help me. It will probably be a few days before I formulate my questions. take care, Dipa Ong Yong Peng
            Message 5 of 18 , May 11, 2007
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              Thank you to all of you who have offered to help me. It will probably be a few days before I formulate my questions.

              take care,
              Dipa

              Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Dipa,

              like Dmytro, I would be glad to help too.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dipaeightprecepter wrote:

              I am trying to do the lessons and will have a few questions from time
              to time.






              http://www.geocities.com/sisterdipa/index.html
              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html
              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/

              Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them. AN 3.65

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dipa
              Thanks again for being willing to help me with learning to use the New Course in Reading Pali to learn how to read Pali. I will start at the beginning with
              Message 6 of 18 , May 13, 2007
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                Thanks again for being willing to help me with learning to use the "New Course in Reading Pali" to learn how to read Pali. I will start at the beginning with very simple questions. My knowledge of English grammar terms like accusative, nominative, etc is very limited in fact almost nonexistent. So, examples work better for me but if these terms are necessary to learn then I will try to learn them.

                Lesson one:
                I know this by heart in Pali and I know what it means in English but
                in order to understand I am going ask where are the words "to and the" in the Pali? I understand that mi = I and gacchaa = go , saranam=refuge, Buddhham = Buddha. I only see " I go refuge Budddha". Is that it in Pali or am I missing something?

                I will stick with just that question to start.

                thanks,
                Dipa

                Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Dipa,

                like Dmytro, I would be glad to help too.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dipaeightprecepter wrote:

                I am trying to do the lessons and will have a few questions from time
                to time.






                http://www.geocities.com/sisterdipa/index.html
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/

                Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them. AN 3.65

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gdbedell
                (i) The English word the is called a definite article. It is used with a following noun to indicate that a specific person or thing is being referred to.
                Message 7 of 18 , May 14, 2007
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                  (i) The English word 'the' is called a definite article. It is used with a following noun to
                  indicate that a specific person or thing is being referred to. Pali does not have any such
                  word. Mostly you have to understand from the context whether a Pali noun refers to a
                  specific person or thing or not. Sometimes Pai sentences are ambiguous from the English
                  point of view.

                  (ii) The English word 'to' is called a preposition. It indicates the the goal or destination of
                  motion. Pali also has prepositions, but this particular meaning does not require one.

                  You should not expect to be able to translate any language word for word into another.

                  George Bedell

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Dipa <sisterdipa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks again for being willing to help me with learning to use the "New Course in
                  Reading Pali" to learn how to read Pali. I will start at the beginning with very simple
                  questions. My knowledge of English grammar terms like accusative, nominative, etc is
                  very limited in fact almost nonexistent. So, examples work better for me but if these
                  terms are necessary to learn then I will try to learn them.
                  >
                  > Lesson one:
                  > I know this by heart in Pali and I know what it means in English but
                  > in order to understand I am going ask where are the words "to and the" in the Pali? I
                  understand that mi = I and gacchaa = go , saranam=refuge, Buddhham = Buddha. I only
                  see " I go refuge Budddha". Is that it in Pali or am I missing something?
                  >
                  > I will stick with just that question to start.
                  >
                  > thanks,
                  > Dipa
                • Gunnar Gällmo
                  ... To is expressed by the fact that sara.na m is in the accusative case, which expresses direction. The in English marks the distinction between
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 14, 2007
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                    --- Dipa <sisterdipa@...> skrev:

                    > Lesson one:
                    > I know this by heart in Pali and I know what it
                    > means in English but
                    > in order to understand I am going ask where are the
                    > words "to and the" in the Pali? I understand that
                    > mi = I and gacchaa = go , saranam=refuge, Buddhham =
                    > Buddha. I only see " I go refuge Budddha". Is that
                    > it in Pali or am I missing something?

                    "To" is expressed by the fact that " sara.na"m " is in
                    the accusative case, which expresses direction.

                    "The" in English marks the distinction between
                    definite and indefinite forms. This distinction exists
                    in e. g. English, the main Teutonic and Romance
                    languages and in Greek; it does not exist in many
                    Slavic languages, nor in Latin, Hindi, Sanskrit or
                    Pali, just to mention a few examples.

                    (In Sinhalese the distincion exists, but is expressed
                    the other way around, the basic form being definite;
                    thus "miniha" means "the man", while "minihek" means
                    "a man".)

                    Gunnar







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                  • Gunnar Gällmo
                    ... Mainly because Pali has eight cases, while English has only two; so often English makes use of prepositions when Pali uses the different cases; e. g. a
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 15, 2007
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                      --- gdbedell <gdbedell@...> skrev:

                      > (ii) The English word 'to' is called a
                      > preposition. It indicates the the goal or
                      > destination of
                      > motion. Pali also has prepositions, but this
                      > particular meaning does not require one.

                      Mainly because Pali has eight cases, while English has
                      only two; so often English makes use of prepositions
                      when Pali uses the different cases; e. g.

                      "a village" or "the village": gaamo

                      "to the village": gaama"m

                      "in the village": gaame

                      "from the village": gaamaa

                      "of the village", or "the village's": gaamassa

                      > You should not expect to be able to translate any
                      > language word for word into another.

                      Actually, the basic unit of a language is not the word
                      but the phrase; this is especially clear when
                      translating between languages with very different
                      grammatical structures, such as Pali and English. (It
                      must have been even worse for the poor chaps who
                      started translating Sanskrit sutras into Chinese.)

                      Gunnar







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                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Gunnar, George and Dipa, Dipa: modern English has evolved to the point the noun cases literally do not exist, although we can still technically identify
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 16, 2007
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                        Dear Gunnar, George and Dipa,

                        Dipa: modern English has evolved to the point the noun cases literally
                        do not exist, although we can still technically identify them. For
                        example,

                        John calls Peter.
                        Nominative: John
                        Accusative: Peter.

                        The reverse is true for "Peter calls John". We can say that in modern
                        English, nominative and accusative cases have the same declension, the
                        distinction can be made by the correct placement of the nouns with
                        reference to the verb.

                        A language like Pali allows the user greater flexibility, in poetry
                        and for emphasising certain words, the placement of nouns.

                        Other languages like Latin has seven noun cases, German has four.

                        You may like to look at the Pali Primer for easy examples.


                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Dipa wrote:

                        My knowledge of English grammar terms like accusative, nominative, etc
                        is very limited in fact almost nonexistent.
                      • Gunnar Gällmo
                        ... Except genitive: John s house. But one may also say the house of John , using a preposition for the same function. And in the written language, the
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 16, 2007
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                          --- Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> skrev:

                          > Dear Gunnar, George and Dipa,
                          >
                          > Dipa: modern English has evolved to the point the
                          > noun cases literally
                          > do not exist

                          Except genitive: John's house.

                          But one may also say "the house of John", using a
                          preposition for the same function.

                          And in the written language, the genitive "s" is
                          separated from the stem by a ', as if it weren't
                          really part of the word. In older English you may see
                          the expression "the king his servants", instead of
                          "the king's servants", but I don't know if the
                          genitive s is a historical remnant of this "his".

                          > Other languages like Latin has seven noun cases

                          Officially, Latin has only six; but I try to argue to
                          Latinists that it actually has all the eight cases of
                          Sanskrit and Pali, but ablative, locative and
                          instrumental always have the same forms. Calling it
                          all ablative makes it a case rather difficult to
                          understand.

                          (Finnish has, if I remember correctly, fifteen cases.
                          I suppose it is the same thing with Hungarian - but
                          these two aren't Indo-European.)

                          Gunnar







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                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Dear Gunnar and friends, thanks for the information. Modern English has also dropped grammatical gender, so nouns are only singular and plural (numbers). Here
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 17, 2007
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                            Dear Gunnar and friends,

                            thanks for the information. Modern English has also dropped
                            grammatical gender, so nouns are only singular and plural (numbers).

                            Here is an interesting page on how nouns are declined in Old English:
                            http://www.wmich.edu/medieval/resources/IOE/inflnoun.html

                            Note that there are only four noun cases, as a result of Germanic
                            influences.

                            (As Gunnar mentioned earlier, there is no noun declension in the
                            Chinese language. I have also not heard of any attempt by Buddhists to
                            introduce it into Chinese. So, I believe the translators must have
                            truly appreciate both Sanskrit and Chinese.)

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo wrote:

                            > Dipa: modern English has evolved to the point the
                            > noun cases literally do not exist

                            Except genitive: John's house.

                            But one may also say "the house of John", using a preposition for the
                            same function.
                          • Dipa
                            Thank you everyone. I find the examples given below, by Gunnar, especially helpful and will use them to refer to. I can use such examples as templates I
                            Message 13 of 18 , May 17, 2007
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                              Thank you everyone. I find the examples given below, by Gunnar, especially helpful and will use them to refer to. I can use such examples as templates I think.

                              My next questions is regarding translating this sentence which appears on page 1 under section 2 . Naha"m, bhikkhave, anna"m ekadhamma"m pi samanupassaami ya"m eva"m adanta"m, agutta"m, arakkhita"m, asamvuta"m, mahato anatthaaya samvattatiti yathayida"m, bhikkhave, citta"m.

                              What I get is this: Oh Bhikkhus, again, I perceive not, other single thing which thus untamed , unguarded, unwatched, unrestrained, leads to his great disadvantage Oh Bhikkhus, namely mind.

                              On page 9 the book reads na=aha"m = not I and then below that
                              it reads naha"m ...............samanupassaami = I do not perceive.
                              I get the samanupassaa = perceive, mi= I and nah"m = not I .
                              I am having a hard time understanding how you know to add "do" to the not I.

                              If you can help me to understand this and any other mistakes I have made above I would appreciate it.

                              thanks,
                              Dipa
                              Gunnar Gällmo <gunnargallmo@...> wrote: --- gdbedell <gdbedell@...> skrev:

                              > (ii) The English word 'to' is called a
                              > preposition. It indicates the the goal or
                              > destination of
                              > motion. Pali also has prepositions, but this
                              > particular meaning does not require one.

                              Mainly because Pali has eight cases, while English has
                              only two; so often English makes use of prepositions
                              when Pali uses the different cases; e. g.

                              "a village" or "the village": gaamo

                              "to the village": gaama"m

                              "in the village": gaame

                              "from the village": gaamaa

                              "of the village", or "the village's": gaamassa

                              > You should not expect to be able to translate any
                              > language word for word into another.

                              Actually, the basic unit of a language is not the word
                              but the phrase; this is especially clear when
                              translating between languages with very different
                              grammatical structures, such as Pali and English. (It
                              must have been even worse for the poor chaps who
                              started translating Sanskrit sutras into Chinese.)

                              Gunnar




                              _________________________________________________________
                              Flyger tiden iväg? Fånga dagen med Yahoo! Mails inbyggda
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                              http://www.geocities.com/sisterdipa/index.html
                              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html
                              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/

                              Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them. AN 3.65

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • gdbedell
                              In expressions like I do not perceive .... or do you perceive ...? the word do has no meaning. It must be used in English for grammatical reasons, but
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 17, 2007
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                                In expressions like 'I do not perceive ....' or 'do you perceive ...?' the word 'do' has no
                                meaning. It must be used in English for grammatical reasons, but has nothing to do with
                                Pali or Pali grammar. Like 'the', there is no word in Pali which corresponds to this 'do'

                                Your translation is OK, but it should probably be put into more idiomatic English.

                                George Bedell

                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Dipa <sisterdipa@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank you everyone. I find the examples given below, by Gunnar, especially helpful and
                                will use them to refer to. I can use such examples as templates I think.
                                >
                                > My next questions is regarding translating this sentence which appears on page 1 under
                                section 2 . Naha"m, bhikkhave, anna"m ekadhamma"m pi samanupassaami ya"m eva"m
                                adanta"m, agutta"m, arakkhita"m, asamvuta"m, mahato anatthaaya samvattatiti
                                yathayida"m, bhikkhave, citta"m.
                                >
                                > What I get is this: Oh Bhikkhus, again, I perceive not, other single thing which thus
                                untamed , unguarded, unwatched, unrestrained, leads to his great disadvantage Oh
                                Bhikkhus, namely mind.
                                >
                                > On page 9 the book reads na=aha"m = not I and then below that
                                > it reads naha"m ...............samanupassaami = I do not perceive.
                                > I get the samanupassaa = perceive, mi= I and nah"m = not I .
                                > I am having a hard time understanding how you know to add "do" to the not I.
                                >
                                > If you can help me to understand this and any other mistakes I have made above I would
                                appreciate it.
                                >
                                > thanks,
                                > Dipa
                              • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
                                Hi Dipa, Have you consulted the answers to the exercises: http://dhamma.ru/paali/g&k_ans.zip
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 18, 2007
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                                  Hi Dipa,

                                  Have you consulted the answers to the exercises:

                                  http://dhamma.ru/paali/g&k_ans.zip
                                  http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/gair-karunatillake/Gair-Karunatillake-Ans-pdf.zip

                                  Best wishes, Dmytro
                                • Dipa
                                  Thank you Dmytro, I didn t know about this. I still have a couple of questions though even after seeing the answers. How does a person know that there is a
                                  Message 16 of 18 , May 18, 2007
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                                    Thank you Dmytro,
                                    I didn't know about this. I still have a couple of questions though even after seeing the answers. How does a person know that there is a "do" with the"not I" ? Also, how does a person know that anna"m
                                    is"any" rather than "other" as anna is listed in the book?

                                    thanks,
                                    Dipa
                                    "Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko" <aavuso@...> wrote: Hi Dipa,

                                    Have you consulted the answers to the exercises:

                                    http://dhamma.ru/paali/g&k_ans.zip
                                    http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/gair-karunatillake/Gair-Karunatillake-Ans-pdf.zip

                                    Best wishes, Dmytro





                                    http://www.geocities.com/sisterdipa/index.html
                                    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html
                                    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/

                                    Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them. AN 3.65

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • gdbedell
                                    Naha m, bhikkhave, anna m ekadhamma m pi samanupassaami not I ............. other ....................... perceive I ... not I
                                    Message 17 of 18 , May 18, 2007
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                                      Naha"m, bhikkhave, anna"m ekadhamma"m pi samanupassaami
                                      not I ............. other ....................... perceive I

                                      > How does a person know that there is a "do" with the "not I" ?

                                      'not I other perceive I' is a string of English words, but it is not English. You translated it as 'I
                                      perceive not, other ...' The same way you know that in English 'not' does not come at the
                                      beginning of a sentence, and English verbs do not agree with the subject 'I', you know that
                                      we do not say (in modern English) 'I perceive not', but rather 'I do not perceive'.

                                      > Also, how does a person know that anna"m is "any" rather than "other" as anna is listed in
                                      the book?

                                      anna.m means 'other'. But in English we need 'any' in certain negative constructions: 'I do not
                                      perceive any other ...' Whoever translated this exercise decided that 'other' could be removed
                                      without changing the meaning. 'Any' is a kind of article which Pali lacks.

                                      George Bedell
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