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Re: [Pali] Re: di.t.the di.t.thavaaditaa

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  • P G Dave
    Dear Karen, Keeping language and grammar apart for a moment, I was just wondering how as a meditator you would differentiate in practice, contemplating the
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 13, 2007
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      Dear Karen,

      Keeping language and grammar apart for a moment, I was just wondering how as
      a meditator you would differentiate in practice, "contemplating the body as
      the body" AND "contemplating the body in the body" and attempt one or the
      other if the two were indeed different in practice.

      thanks.
      metta,
      P G Dave

      _________________________________________________________

      On 4/13/07, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Keren,
      >
      > Interesting issue here, but it really depends on where your emphasis is.
      > Are you in for purely Pali grammar, or Pal in the service of understanding
      > the Dharma. Of course, most of them time, the two happily coincide, but
      > there are occasions like this when the mettle of a translator or reader is
      > tested.
      >
      > The answer lies in understanding the Malunkyaputta Teaching given in
      > the Malunkyaputta Sutta (S 35.95).
      >
      > The translator or reader has now to decide how best to express it in
      > English so that he (and others hopefully) will understand the correct
      > import, based on various internal references like this.
      >
      > Piya Tan
      >
      > On 12 Apr 2007 15:41:47 -0700, keren_arbel <keren_arbel@...<keren_arbel%40hotmail.com>>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Piya,
      > >
      > > Thanks, but it seems to me that Contemplating the body as the body,
      > > is not the same as saying "contemplating the body in the body".
      > > But, is Locative can be taken as implying "as"?
      > > Keren.
      > >
      > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com><Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Piya Tan"
      > > <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Keren,
      > > >
      > > > I think this idiom is also found in the Satipatthana Suttas, for
      > > example:
      > > >
      > > > kaaye kaayaanupassii ...pe... (contemplating the body in the body,
      > > etc)
      > > >
      > > > This is a literal translation. Idiomatically, we can render this as:
      > > >
      > > > "Contemplating the body as the body..."
      > > >
      > > > I have written a bit about (Dharma aspect, not so much Pali
      > > grammar) in
      > > > *the Satipatthana Suttas. (Introduction 3.7a)*
      > > > See this at http://dharmafarer.googlepages.com
      > > > under "Majjhima Nikaya"
      > > >
      > > > Piya
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On 12 Apr 2007 02:50:10 -0700, keren_arbel <keren_arbel@...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Hello everyone,
      > > > >
      > > > > Sorry for bothering you again and again, but I don't have anyone
      > > else to
      > > > > ask...
      > > > >
      > > > > In MN III.29-30: di.t.the di.t.thavaaditaa
      > > > >
      > > > > di.t.the: seen in locative
      > > > > vaaditaa: speaker (Nominative sg of vaaditar)
      > > > >
      > > > > Bhikkhu Bodhi translate like this: "Telling the seen as it is
      > > seen".
      > > > >
      > > > > I wanted to ask if a locative can be transles as "as"?
      > > > > It seems that the accurate trandlation should be:
      > > > > "in case of the seen, he is a spkeaker about the seen"
      > > or "concerning
      > > > > the seen, he speak about the seen".
      > > > >
      > > > > However, in these translations there is no reference to speaking
      > > about
      > > > > the seen, as it is seen, which makes this sentence different.
      > > What do
      > > > > you think?
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks,
      > > > > Have a wonderful day,
      > > > > Keren [:D]
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kumaara Bhikkhu
      Good point, Dave. I think it would be difficult to imagine how we could contemplate the body in the body . To make it more literal and still be meaningful,
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 15, 2007
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        Good point, Dave.

        I think it would be difficult to imagine how we could "contemplate the body in the body". To make it more literal and still be meaningful, how about "contemplating the body in terms of the body" or "contemplating the body in regard to the body"?


        Btw, I think "contemplate" is a poor choice for "anupassati". What does "contemplate" mean in English? My dictionary (WordWeb) provides these definitions:
        1. Look at thoughtfully; observe deep in thought
        2. Consider as a possibility
        3. Think intently and at length, as for spiritual purposes
        4. Reflect deeply on a subject

        Every meaning of "contemplate" carries the idea of 'thinking'. This is hardly what a satipatthana meditator is supposed to do.

        Besides, the word "anupassati" does not carry the idea of thinking at all. Rather it means "repeated seeing", or "seeing again and again", which is what a meditator is supposed to do mentally.

        Perhaps "observe" is a better choice. Quite a few meanings of the word do fit well with what meditators are supposed to do, e.g.
        * Observe with care or pay close attention to
        * Watch attentively
        * Follow with the eyes or the mind
        * Observe correctly or closely

        I like "observe correctly". :-)

        kb

        P G Dave wrote thus at 03:06 AM 14-04-07:
        >Dear Karen,
        >
        >Keeping language and grammar apart for a moment, I was just wondering how as
        >a meditator you would differentiate in practice, "contemplating the body as
        >the body" AND "contemplating the body in the body" and attempt one or the
        >other if the two were indeed different in practice.
        >
        >thanks.
        >metta,
        >P G Dave
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Keren, in Lesson 16 of Warder s Introduction to Pali, you may find some details of the locative case. In our recent translation exercise, we had the word
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 19, 2007
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          Dear Keren,

          in Lesson 16 of Warder's Introduction to Pali, you may find some
          details of the locative case.

          In our recent translation exercise, we had the word
          'di.t.thadhammika', which literally means "(adjective) bringing about
          visible effects". It is possible that 'di.t.tha' has not been
          vigorously considered in your citation, hence the confusion. So, it
          may simply not be an issue of grammar, but that of semantics as well.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, keren_arbel wrote:

          In MN III.29-30: di.t.the di.t.thavaaditaa

          di.t.the: seen in locative
          vaaditaa: speaker (Nominative sg of vaaditar)
        • keren_arbel
          Thank you all for you thoughts. I appreciate it greatly. With Metta, Keren.
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 21, 2007
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            Thank you all for you thoughts. I appreciate it greatly.

            With Metta,
            Keren.
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