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Re: The wisdom-liberated Arahant

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  • crimian84000
    I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not matter at that point. The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps. Similar in
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 14, 2007
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      I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
      matter at that point.
      The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
      Similar in taste likely.

      Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
      stict line.
      Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
      They are also subject to crossover.
      To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
      Why stuggle for samadhi even.
      Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
      I would not think so.
      Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
    • thomaslaw03
      I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain even the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are destroyed not by samadha
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 17, 2007
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        I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain even
        the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are destroyed
        not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is very different
        from any meditative traditions in history.

        Thomas Law

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "crimian84000" <crimian84000@...> wrote:
        >
        > I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
        > matter at that point.
        > The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
        > Similar in taste likely.
        >
        > Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
        > stict line.
        > Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
        > They are also subject to crossover.
        > To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
        > Why stuggle for samadhi even.
        > Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
        > I would not think so.
        > Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
        >
      • crimian84000
        ... novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well. ... probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i mean is that one can
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 18, 2007
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          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Crimian,
          >
          > What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I'm also a
          novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well.
          > what I need to you consider first before you undergo that plan is
          probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i
          mean is that one can contact to another directly without having to
          send messages to the whole group, unless the sender wants to post it.
          Do u think it can do? I'm not good at computer anyway.
          >
          > Sukhi hotu,
          >
          > Johan.



          Well Johan I would like to make it so we can have a chat room and
          also linking people up on Messenger and such services.
          I am also tinkering with bible merorization software.
          They can be easily used for the Tipitaka.

          So we would need different levels of learning depending on the time
          and ability among other things.
          Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose to
          study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
          verse.
          Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
          as well as memorization.

          Surely there are other things that can also be done.

          Yahoo groups will most likely only be 1 part of the project.
          I am beginning to prepare for it now but it may be quite some time
          before it has got enough to use well.

          I do no want to do 1 lesson a week and strugle to get it online if
          soemthing comes up.
          Preparing about 3 months worth before hand and then adding to it
          later would be the best approach.

          Any ideas are welcome as well as anyone interested in helping.
          Talk to me online at akaaliko.crimian@...
          This would be a large project if it gets going and one deserving of
          the teaching of the Noble One.

          P.S. Does anyone here know of a page of statistics for the Tipitaka?
          Verses, divisions, and words etc. Thanks all.
        • rjkjp1
          ... even ... destroyed ... different ... Dear Thomas Because the way of insight is unique to Dhamma. In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 18, 2007
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            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain
            even
            > the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are
            destroyed
            > not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is very
            different
            > from any meditative traditions in history.
            >
            > Thomas Law
            >
            Dear Thomas
            Because the way of insight is unique to Dhamma.

            In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
            arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
            Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

            i]Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
            Why is this said? For the purpose
            of showing the arising of
            knowledge thus even without concentration.
            This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
            concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
            concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
            (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
            advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
            Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
            the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
            Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
            without
            previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
            characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
            referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
            (vipassanayanika)..."[/i]

            Robert
          • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
            Hello Crimian, ... You may find useful the material at http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali.htm Metta, Dmytro
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 19, 2007
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              Hello Crimian,

              > Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose to
              > study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
              > verse.
              > Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
              > as well as memorization.

              You may find useful the material at
              http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali.htm

              Metta, Dmytro
            • Michael Beisert
              Susima Sutta: Thanissaro Bhikkhu note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 19, 2007
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                Susima Sutta:

                Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:

                This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.html> and AN 9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.html>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.

                Michael

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • thomaslaw03
                Michael, How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a). Thomas Law ... attain Awakening (final
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 21, 2007
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                  Michael,

                  How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart
                  of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a).

                  Thomas Law

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" <mbeisert@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Susima Sutta:
                  >
                  > Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:
                  >
                  > This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can
                  attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas,
                  but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at
                  all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have
                  attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of
                  right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have
                  acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact
                  with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond
                  forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no
                  different from that given in AN
                  9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.htm
                  l> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness"
                  and "released in both ways" given in AN
                  9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.htm
                  l> and AN
                  9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.htm
                  l>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on
                  right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new
                  arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first
                  jhana before attaining Awakening.
                  >
                  > Michael
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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