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Re: HI all. keen to learn

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  • crimian84000
    What i really want to do is rather ambitious but i see it as a good thing to do. I want to analyze the various Abhidhammas and piece together the split of the
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 8, 2007
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      What i really want to do is rather ambitious but i see it as a good
      thing to do.
      I want to analyze the various Abhidhammas and piece together the
      split of the Sangha in between the 2nd and 3rd councils.
      Basically NIkaya Buddhism.
    • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
      Hi Crimian, ... This would be feasible only with the online presence of a qualified teacher. Otherwise the students can reinforce the mutual mistakes. This
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 9, 2007
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        Hi Crimian,

        > What i am proposing is a new group that is linked with this site.
        > I could run it perhaps with some help.
        > We could work on making simple sentences and recording them to audio.
        > Perhaps even talking to others over the internet.

        This would be feasible only with the online presence of a qualified
        teacher. Otherwise the students can reinforce the mutual mistakes.
        This sometimes happens even in this group.

        If the teacher is not available, computer-assisted learning can be helpful.

        For example, we can develop the Pali section at:

        http://www.quia.com/shared/
        http://iteslj.org/v/

        or create learning interactions:

        http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/applications/learning_interactions/
        http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/applications/quiz_tutorial/

        or develop a whole Pali learning course like

        http://www.auralog.com/en/homepage.htm

        Metta, Dmytro
      • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
        P.S. A good article: Developing Language Learning Tools Dennie Hoopingarner, Michigan State University http://clear.msu.edu/dennie/cv/icie2007.html
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 9, 2007
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          P.S. A good article:

          Developing Language Learning Tools

          Dennie Hoopingarner, Michigan State University

          http://clear.msu.edu/dennie/cv/icie2007.html
        • crimian84000
          Thanks for the input Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko. I think yes that we are all going to make mistakes but I think the risk of making no ground whatsoever, for a
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 9, 2007
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            Thanks for the input Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko.

            I think yes that we are all going to make mistakes but I think the
            risk of making no ground whatsoever, for a beginner, will be much
            higher when made to translate suttas.They have quite a bit of
            idiomatic language that should not be the beginning focus of language
            students for any language, except those which one can not do without
            in everyday speech.

            I think small sentences like those found in the workbooks I have will
            not pose any problems.

            I am only starting on paali but i have some language learning
            experience and I cannot read a 20 word sentence and translate them
            one for one and learn much. At best i learn vocab doing that but i
            have better methods for that. This way is good for once you know how
            to contructs a couple simple sentences.

            There would be checks and perhaps someone more knowledgable would be
            able to give some pointers. Possibly I can get in touch with the
            Sydney University lecturer who teaches pali and get some pointers.

            I think that people that used to get Latin drills hated it and I feel
            like that when i look at some of the stuff here. There is nothing
            wrong with grammar but to a beginner, who may struggle to understand
            the terms even for their own language, will feel disheartened.

            We must make learning a gradual process not a jump into the deep end.
            I am currently deep in university study so i will be doing a little
            in the way of exercise making in my spare time. Hopefully in a few
            months i can get a few lessons going. :)
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Crimian, as I mentioned earlier, people all learn differently. Usually, mature (adult) students, who learn Pali willingly, do not face the same problem.
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 10, 2007
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              Dear Crimian,

              as I mentioned earlier, people all learn differently. Usually, mature
              (adult) students, who learn Pali willingly, do not face the same
              problem. Still, I hope your point will be considered by aspiring
              authors planning to write new Pali textbooks.

              The suggestions by Dmytro are good. From your postings and email
              address, I gather that you are from Australia, and possibly New South
              Wales. Given your diverse interests, you may also like to consider
              joining a Buddhist group there.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, crimian84000 wrote:

              I think that people that used to get Latin drills hated it and I feel
              like that when i look at some of the stuff here.
            • thomaslaw03
              Dear Pali friend, Does a wisdom-liberated Arahant (as opposed to the both ways liberated Arahant; MN I 477-78) attain at least the first jhana of the four
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 13, 2007
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                Dear Pali friend,

                Does a wisdom-liberated Arahant (as opposed to the both ways liberated
                Arahant; MN I 477-78) attain at least 'the first jhana' of the four
                formless states? It seems that the wisdom-liberated Arahant does not
                attain all of the four jhanas (Cf. DN II 70-1). Any advice?

                Sincerely,

                Thomas Law
              • crimian84000
                I find i can go through the textbooks and learn something but even with my interest level and determination to learn it i find there is something missing. Like
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 13, 2007
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                  I find i can go through the textbooks and learn something but even
                  with my interest level and determination to learn it i find there is
                  something missing.

                  Like learning a modern language and not hearning it.
                  We may not have know ALL the features of paali pronunciation but
                  cross language study in ancient India does give many good hints.
                  This makes me wonder about the possibilities of a concise beginners
                  course being written.

                  I have learn from several language teaching methods and am starting
                  to see how things may get learners involved.

                  Of course language style is important so a website is a perfect place
                  to do something. Audio, visual and even hints on other sensory
                  dominant or method dominant styles.
                  Flash cards can help some people but not all.
                  Saying the word out lous will help anyone to a degree, even those who
                  are not too audio favouring. I would love to read paali comics.
                  Imagine having artists draw suttas and place the BUddhas discussions
                  in them. It would make things amazing.

                  One thing i think that may be a bit far away now would be short
                  animations.

                  Just some thoughts on projects in the future.

                  A paali site would not attract too many viewers. Not like a Latin or
                  Sanskrit site of the same type. It would make it easier to afford
                  server renting which I would be happy to do in the future.

                  I think with a dedicated team of people a very informative site could
                  get going.

                  Who knows hey?
                • crimian84000
                  I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not matter at that point. The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps. Similar in
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 14, 2007
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                    I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
                    matter at that point.
                    The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
                    Similar in taste likely.

                    Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
                    stict line.
                    Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
                    They are also subject to crossover.
                    To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
                    Why stuggle for samadhi even.
                    Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
                    I would not think so.
                    Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
                  • thomaslaw03
                    I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain even the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are destroyed not by samadha
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 17, 2007
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                      I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain even
                      the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are destroyed
                      not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is very different
                      from any meditative traditions in history.

                      Thomas Law

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "crimian84000" <crimian84000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
                      > matter at that point.
                      > The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
                      > Similar in taste likely.
                      >
                      > Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
                      > stict line.
                      > Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
                      > They are also subject to crossover.
                      > To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
                      > Why stuggle for samadhi even.
                      > Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
                      > I would not think so.
                      > Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
                      >
                    • crimian84000
                      ... novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well. ... probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i mean is that one can
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 18, 2007
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                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Crimian,
                        >
                        > What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I'm also a
                        novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well.
                        > what I need to you consider first before you undergo that plan is
                        probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i
                        mean is that one can contact to another directly without having to
                        send messages to the whole group, unless the sender wants to post it.
                        Do u think it can do? I'm not good at computer anyway.
                        >
                        > Sukhi hotu,
                        >
                        > Johan.



                        Well Johan I would like to make it so we can have a chat room and
                        also linking people up on Messenger and such services.
                        I am also tinkering with bible merorization software.
                        They can be easily used for the Tipitaka.

                        So we would need different levels of learning depending on the time
                        and ability among other things.
                        Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose to
                        study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
                        verse.
                        Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
                        as well as memorization.

                        Surely there are other things that can also be done.

                        Yahoo groups will most likely only be 1 part of the project.
                        I am beginning to prepare for it now but it may be quite some time
                        before it has got enough to use well.

                        I do no want to do 1 lesson a week and strugle to get it online if
                        soemthing comes up.
                        Preparing about 3 months worth before hand and then adding to it
                        later would be the best approach.

                        Any ideas are welcome as well as anyone interested in helping.
                        Talk to me online at akaaliko.crimian@...
                        This would be a large project if it gets going and one deserving of
                        the teaching of the Noble One.

                        P.S. Does anyone here know of a page of statistics for the Tipitaka?
                        Verses, divisions, and words etc. Thanks all.
                      • rjkjp1
                        ... even ... destroyed ... different ... Dear Thomas Because the way of insight is unique to Dhamma. In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 18, 2007
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                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain
                          even
                          > the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are
                          destroyed
                          > not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is very
                          different
                          > from any meditative traditions in history.
                          >
                          > Thomas Law
                          >
                          Dear Thomas
                          Because the way of insight is unique to Dhamma.

                          In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
                          arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
                          Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

                          i]Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
                          Why is this said? For the purpose
                          of showing the arising of
                          knowledge thus even without concentration.
                          This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
                          concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
                          concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
                          (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
                          advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
                          Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
                          the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
                          Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
                          without
                          previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
                          characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
                          referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
                          (vipassanayanika)..."[/i]

                          Robert
                        • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
                          Hello Crimian, ... You may find useful the material at http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali.htm Metta, Dmytro
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 19, 2007
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                            Hello Crimian,

                            > Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose to
                            > study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
                            > verse.
                            > Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
                            > as well as memorization.

                            You may find useful the material at
                            http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali.htm

                            Metta, Dmytro
                          • Michael Beisert
                            Susima Sutta: Thanissaro Bhikkhu note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 19, 2007
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                              Susima Sutta:

                              Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:

                              This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.html> and AN 9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.html>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.

                              Michael

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • thomaslaw03
                              Michael, How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a). Thomas Law ... attain Awakening (final
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 21, 2007
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                                Michael,

                                How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart
                                of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a).

                                Thomas Law

                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" <mbeisert@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Susima Sutta:
                                >
                                > Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:
                                >
                                > This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can
                                attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas,
                                but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at
                                all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have
                                attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of
                                right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have
                                acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact
                                with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond
                                forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no
                                different from that given in AN
                                9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.htm
                                l> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness"
                                and "released in both ways" given in AN
                                9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.htm
                                l> and AN
                                9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.htm
                                l>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on
                                right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new
                                arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first
                                jhana before attaining Awakening.
                                >
                                > Michael
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
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