Re: HI all. keen to learn
- Pali chanting, meditation practice, sutta study, abhidhamma study,
pali grammar, sutta translation are all interesting to me.
I do chant but would like it to be deeper in meaning.
I hope to learn Paali well enough to translate the suttas myself as
well as one day read them stright in paali. I am a big fan of
language learning and am currently learning French. True we all have
different ways of leaning, it is something else i explore often.
I find myself extremely curious about this world and it's people. I
study many fields and would like to be able to study Buddhism in much
greater depth also.
I wish to be a monk one day and I consider learning the ancient
languages of ALL religious traditions important because they also
have important things to say about the human condition. Also we must
all, as Buddhists, communicate and live with people of other faiths.
I hope for nothing less than to help in creating a beneficial mind of
my own and a understanding , helpful, compasionately wise society. I
do not know that we can ever have total peace in the world but I will
not wish to ever contribute to the opposite knowingly.
Hopefull we can run another group in tandem with this one and we can
both produce an atmosphere that can foster the understanding and
practical application of the sublime and free teaching of The Rightly
Self Awakened One.
May we all use our intelligence for good not harm as we walk this
May you all be happy and study diligently ;)
p.s. I have one friend online that I have started to teach a little
paali already and he is interested in the group. There is certainly
interest but I seek the blessing of this already established, hard
- What i really want to do is rather ambitious but i see it as a good
thing to do.
I want to analyze the various Abhidhammas and piece together the
split of the Sangha in between the 2nd and 3rd councils.
Basically NIkaya Buddhism.
- Hi Crimian,
> What i am proposing is a new group that is linked with this site.This would be feasible only with the online presence of a qualified
> I could run it perhaps with some help.
> We could work on making simple sentences and recording them to audio.
> Perhaps even talking to others over the internet.
teacher. Otherwise the students can reinforce the mutual mistakes.
This sometimes happens even in this group.
If the teacher is not available, computer-assisted learning can be helpful.
For example, we can develop the Pali section at:
or create learning interactions:
or develop a whole Pali learning course like
- P.S. A good article:
Developing Language Learning Tools
Dennie Hoopingarner, Michigan State University
- Thanks for the input Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko.
I think yes that we are all going to make mistakes but I think the
risk of making no ground whatsoever, for a beginner, will be much
higher when made to translate suttas.They have quite a bit of
idiomatic language that should not be the beginning focus of language
students for any language, except those which one can not do without
in everyday speech.
I think small sentences like those found in the workbooks I have will
not pose any problems.
I am only starting on paali but i have some language learning
experience and I cannot read a 20 word sentence and translate them
one for one and learn much. At best i learn vocab doing that but i
have better methods for that. This way is good for once you know how
to contructs a couple simple sentences.
There would be checks and perhaps someone more knowledgable would be
able to give some pointers. Possibly I can get in touch with the
Sydney University lecturer who teaches pali and get some pointers.
I think that people that used to get Latin drills hated it and I feel
like that when i look at some of the stuff here. There is nothing
wrong with grammar but to a beginner, who may struggle to understand
the terms even for their own language, will feel disheartened.
We must make learning a gradual process not a jump into the deep end.
I am currently deep in university study so i will be doing a little
in the way of exercise making in my spare time. Hopefully in a few
months i can get a few lessons going. :)
- Dear Crimian,
as I mentioned earlier, people all learn differently. Usually, mature
(adult) students, who learn Pali willingly, do not face the same
problem. Still, I hope your point will be considered by aspiring
authors planning to write new Pali textbooks.
The suggestions by Dmytro are good. From your postings and email
address, I gather that you are from Australia, and possibly New South
Wales. Given your diverse interests, you may also like to consider
joining a Buddhist group there.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, crimian84000 wrote:
I think that people that used to get Latin drills hated it and I feel
like that when i look at some of the stuff here.
- Dear Pali friend,
Does a wisdom-liberated Arahant (as opposed to the both ways liberated
Arahant; MN I 477-78) attain at least 'the first jhana' of the four
formless states? It seems that the wisdom-liberated Arahant does not
attain all of the four jhanas (Cf. DN II 70-1). Any advice?
- I find i can go through the textbooks and learn something but even
with my interest level and determination to learn it i find there is
Like learning a modern language and not hearning it.
We may not have know ALL the features of paali pronunciation but
cross language study in ancient India does give many good hints.
This makes me wonder about the possibilities of a concise beginners
course being written.
I have learn from several language teaching methods and am starting
to see how things may get learners involved.
Of course language style is important so a website is a perfect place
to do something. Audio, visual and even hints on other sensory
dominant or method dominant styles.
Flash cards can help some people but not all.
Saying the word out lous will help anyone to a degree, even those who
are not too audio favouring. I would love to read paali comics.
Imagine having artists draw suttas and place the BUddhas discussions
in them. It would make things amazing.
One thing i think that may be a bit far away now would be short
Just some thoughts on projects in the future.
A paali site would not attract too many viewers. Not like a Latin or
Sanskrit site of the same type. It would make it easier to afford
server renting which I would be happy to do in the future.
I think with a dedicated team of people a very informative site could
Who knows hey?
- I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
matter at that point.
The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
Similar in taste likely.
Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
They are also subject to crossover.
To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
Why stuggle for samadhi even.
Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
I would not think so.
Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
- I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain even
the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are destroyed
not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is very different
from any meditative traditions in history.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "crimian84000" <crimian84000@...> wrote:
> I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
> matter at that point.
> The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
> Similar in taste likely.
> Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
> stict line.
> Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
> They are also subject to crossover.
> To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
> Why stuggle for samadhi even.
> Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
> I would not think so.
> Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
- --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@...> wrote:
>novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well.
> Dear Crimian,
> What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I'm also a
> what I need to you consider first before you undergo that plan isprobably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i
mean is that one can contact to another directly without having to
send messages to the whole group, unless the sender wants to post it.
Do u think it can do? I'm not good at computer anyway.
>Well Johan I would like to make it so we can have a chat room and
> Sukhi hotu,
also linking people up on Messenger and such services.
I am also tinkering with bible merorization software.
They can be easily used for the Tipitaka.
So we would need different levels of learning depending on the time
and ability among other things.
Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose to
study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
as well as memorization.
Surely there are other things that can also be done.
Yahoo groups will most likely only be 1 part of the project.
I am beginning to prepare for it now but it may be quite some time
before it has got enough to use well.
I do no want to do 1 lesson a week and strugle to get it online if
soemthing comes up.
Preparing about 3 months worth before hand and then adding to it
later would be the best approach.
Any ideas are welcome as well as anyone interested in helping.
Talk to me online at akaaliko.crimian@...
This would be a large project if it gets going and one deserving of
the teaching of the Noble One.
P.S. Does anyone here know of a page of statistics for the Tipitaka?
Verses, divisions, and words etc. Thanks all.
- --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:
> I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain
> the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa aredestroyed
> not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is verydifferent
> from any meditative traditions in history.Dear Thomas
> Thomas Law
Because the way of insight is unique to Dhamma.
In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:
i]Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
Why is this said? For the purpose
of showing the arising of
knowledge thus even without concentration.
This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
(samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
- Hello Crimian,
> Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose toYou may find useful the material at
> study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
> Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
> as well as memorization.
- Susima Sutta:
Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:
This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.html> and AN 9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.html>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart
of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a).
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" <mbeisert@...> wrote:
> Susima Sutta:
> Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:
> This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can
attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas,
but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at
all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have
attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of
right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have
acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact
with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond
forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no
different from that given in AN
l> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness"
and "released in both ways" given in AN
l> and AN
l>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on
right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new
arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first
jhana before attaining Awakening.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]