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Re: HI all. keen to learn

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  • crimian84000
    Hi i have an idea. Please give me some feedback, good and/or bad. This site does not easily cater for beginners. looking through the posts has showed me this.
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 3 12:51 PM
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      Hi i have an idea.
      Please give me some feedback, good and/or bad.

      This site does not easily cater for beginners.
      looking through the posts has showed me this.
      Some of the people are simply too good at it.

      What i am proposing is a new group that is linked with this site.
      I could run it perhaps with some help.
      We could work on making simple sentences and recording them to audio.
      Perhaps even talking to others over the internet.

      I could run the major points past people here.
      This is not more work since it would have been done anyway and it can
      be done other ways also.

      Any help and encouragement would be great.
      I think paali is a great language and moreso for me, like many
      others, is that the Buddha's teachings are kept in this language of
      the texts. It is not the Buddha's teaching alone - it is the teaching
      and truth of all beings.

      It is my desire to share this.
      May you consider carefully ;) and thoughtfully.

      Thankyou for your time.

      Sabbe sataa sadaa hontu!
    • johan wijaya
      Dear Crimian, What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I m also a novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well. what I need to you consider
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 4 9:24 PM
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        Dear Crimian,

        What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I'm also a novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well.
        what I need to you consider first before you undergo that plan is probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i mean is that one can contact to another directly without having to send messages to the whole group, unless the sender wants to post it. Do u think it can do? I'm not good at computer anyway.

        Sukhi hotu,

        Johan.


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: crimian84000 <crimian84000@...>
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2007 3:51:51
        Subject: [Pali] Re: HI all. keen to learn

        Hi i have an idea.
        Please give me some feedback, good and/or bad.

        This site does not easily cater for beginners.
        looking through the posts has showed me this.
        Some of the people are simply too good at it.

        What i am proposing is a new group that is linked with this site.
        I could run it perhaps with some help.
        We could work on making simple sentences and recording them to audio.
        Perhaps even talking to others over the internet.

        I could run the major points past people here.
        This is not more work since it would have been done anyway and it can
        be done other ways also.

        Any help and encouragement would be great.
        I think paali is a great language and moreso for me, like many
        others, is that the Buddha's teachings are kept in this language of
        the texts. It is not the Buddha's teaching alone - it is the teaching
        and truth of all beings.

        It is my desire to share this.
        May you consider carefully ;) and thoughtfully.

        Thankyou for your time.

        Sabbe sataa sadaa hontu!






        ____________________________________________________
        Yahoo! Singapore Answers
        Real people. Real questions. Real answers. Share what you know at http://answers.yahoo.com.sg

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • crimian84000
        ... novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well. ... probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i mean is that one can
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 5 9:54 AM
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          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Crimian,
          >
          > What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I'm also a
          novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well.
          > what I need to you consider first before you undergo that plan is
          probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i
          mean is that one can contact to another directly without having to
          send messages to the whole group, unless the sender wants to post it.
          Do u think it can do? I'm not good at computer anyway.
          >
          > Sukhi hotu,
          >
          > Johan.

          Thankyou for your reply Johan.
          I think i will be largely on my own here.

          I think we should organize to do group things and to do things one on
          one.

          I think that one should not go learning heavy grammar straight away.

          I am not brilliant in English grammar but I know how it works.
          We can teach Paali in a way that gets people recognizing it early on.
          But using a language we learn it easier.
        • P G Dave
          wonderful! the audio will be so helpful. __________________________________ ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 6 3:38 AM
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            wonderful!
            the audio will be so helpful.
            __________________________________


            On 3/4/07, crimian84000 <crimian84000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi i have an idea.
            > Please give me some feedback, good and/or bad.
            >
            > This site does not easily cater for beginners.
            > looking through the posts has showed me this.
            > Some of the people are simply too good at it.
            >
            > What i am proposing is a new group that is linked with this site.
            > I could run it perhaps with some help.
            > We could work on making simple sentences and recording them to audio.
            > Perhaps even talking to others over the internet.
            >
            > I could run the major points past people here.
            > This is not more work since it would have been done anyway and it can
            > be done other ways also.
            >
            > Any help and encouragement would be great.
            > I think paali is a great language and moreso for me, like many
            > others, is that the Buddha's teachings are kept in this language of
            > the texts. It is not the Buddha's teaching alone - it is the teaching
            > and truth of all beings.
            >
            > It is my desire to share this.
            > May you consider carefully ;) and thoughtfully.
            >
            > Thankyou for your time.
            >
            > Sabbe sataa sadaa hontu!
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • johan wijaya
            Dear Crimian, Ok..I ll be looking forward for the good news about it. Metta Johan. ... From: crimian84000 To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 6 8:27 PM
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              Dear Crimian,

              Ok..I'll be looking forward for the good news about it.


              Metta
              Johan.


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: crimian84000 <crimian84000@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2007 5:31:13
              Subject: [Pali] Re: HI all. keen to learn

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups. com, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Crimian,
              >
              > What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I'm also a
              novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well.
              > what I need to you consider first before you undergo that plan is
              probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i
              mean is that one can contact to another directly without having to
              send messages to the whole group, unless the sender wants to post it.
              Do u think it can do? I'm not good at computer anyway.
              >
              > Sukhi hotu,
              >
              > Johan.

              Thankyou for your reply Johan.
              I think i will be largely on my own here.

              I think we should organize to do group things and to do things one on
              one.

              I think that one should not go learning heavy grammar straight away.

              I am not brilliant in English grammar but I know how it works.
              We can teach Paali in a way that gets people recognizing it early on.
              But using a language we learn it easier.






              ____________________________________________________
              Yahoo! Singapore Answers
              Real people. Real questions. Real answers. Share what you know at http://answers.yahoo.com.sg

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Crimian and Johan, all new members to the group, and friends. It is nice to hear some new eager voices in the group. Please make good use of the resources
              Message 6 of 25 , Mar 7 3:19 AM
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                Dear Crimian and Johan,

                all new members to the group, and friends. It is nice to hear some new
                eager voices in the group. Please make good use of the resources on
                tipitaka.net for your study. I may not be a greenhorn, but I am still
                learning something new each day.

                The group started in 2001 catering to the learning and sharing of
                Pali. We have since gone through several books, with the recommended
                solutions available in the message archive and compilations on
                tipitaka.net. The group's activities have taken shape to allow several
                threads running concurrently, in addition to ad-hoc discussions.

                Crimian, people learn in different ways. Learning Pali can be made
                interesting too. Post us what you think might interest you: Pali
                chanting, meditation practice, sutta study, abhidhamma study, pali
                grammar, sutta translation, etc, and we can work out something for you.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, crimian84000 wrote:

                We can teach Paali in a way that gets people recognizing it early on.
                But using a language we learn it easier.
              • crimian84000
                Pali chanting, meditation practice, sutta study, abhidhamma study, pali grammar, sutta translation are all interesting to me. I do chant but would like it to
                Message 7 of 25 , Mar 7 6:55 PM
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                  Pali chanting, meditation practice, sutta study, abhidhamma study,
                  pali grammar, sutta translation are all interesting to me.
                  I do chant but would like it to be deeper in meaning.

                  I hope to learn Paali well enough to translate the suttas myself as
                  well as one day read them stright in paali. I am a big fan of
                  language learning and am currently learning French. True we all have
                  different ways of leaning, it is something else i explore often.

                  I find myself extremely curious about this world and it's people. I
                  study many fields and would like to be able to study Buddhism in much
                  greater depth also.

                  I wish to be a monk one day and I consider learning the ancient
                  languages of ALL religious traditions important because they also
                  have important things to say about the human condition. Also we must
                  all, as Buddhists, communicate and live with people of other faiths.
                  I hope for nothing less than to help in creating a beneficial mind of
                  my own and a understanding , helpful, compasionately wise society. I
                  do not know that we can ever have total peace in the world but I will
                  not wish to ever contribute to the opposite knowingly.

                  Hopefull we can run another group in tandem with this one and we can
                  both produce an atmosphere that can foster the understanding and
                  practical application of the sublime and free teaching of The Rightly
                  Self Awakened One.

                  May we all use our intelligence for good not harm as we walk this
                  path.
                  May you all be happy and study diligently ;)

                  p.s. I have one friend online that I have started to teach a little
                  paali already and he is interested in the group. There is certainly
                  interest but I seek the blessing of this already established, hard
                  working group.
                • crimian84000
                  What i really want to do is rather ambitious but i see it as a good thing to do. I want to analyze the various Abhidhammas and piece together the split of the
                  Message 8 of 25 , Mar 8 4:27 AM
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                    What i really want to do is rather ambitious but i see it as a good
                    thing to do.
                    I want to analyze the various Abhidhammas and piece together the
                    split of the Sangha in between the 2nd and 3rd councils.
                    Basically NIkaya Buddhism.
                  • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
                    Hi Crimian, ... This would be feasible only with the online presence of a qualified teacher. Otherwise the students can reinforce the mutual mistakes. This
                    Message 9 of 25 , Mar 9 3:09 AM
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                      Hi Crimian,

                      > What i am proposing is a new group that is linked with this site.
                      > I could run it perhaps with some help.
                      > We could work on making simple sentences and recording them to audio.
                      > Perhaps even talking to others over the internet.

                      This would be feasible only with the online presence of a qualified
                      teacher. Otherwise the students can reinforce the mutual mistakes.
                      This sometimes happens even in this group.

                      If the teacher is not available, computer-assisted learning can be helpful.

                      For example, we can develop the Pali section at:

                      http://www.quia.com/shared/
                      http://iteslj.org/v/

                      or create learning interactions:

                      http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/applications/learning_interactions/
                      http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/applications/quiz_tutorial/

                      or develop a whole Pali learning course like

                      http://www.auralog.com/en/homepage.htm

                      Metta, Dmytro
                    • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
                      P.S. A good article: Developing Language Learning Tools Dennie Hoopingarner, Michigan State University http://clear.msu.edu/dennie/cv/icie2007.html
                      Message 10 of 25 , Mar 9 3:23 AM
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                        P.S. A good article:

                        Developing Language Learning Tools

                        Dennie Hoopingarner, Michigan State University

                        http://clear.msu.edu/dennie/cv/icie2007.html
                      • crimian84000
                        Thanks for the input Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko. I think yes that we are all going to make mistakes but I think the risk of making no ground whatsoever, for a
                        Message 11 of 25 , Mar 9 9:48 PM
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                          Thanks for the input Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko.

                          I think yes that we are all going to make mistakes but I think the
                          risk of making no ground whatsoever, for a beginner, will be much
                          higher when made to translate suttas.They have quite a bit of
                          idiomatic language that should not be the beginning focus of language
                          students for any language, except those which one can not do without
                          in everyday speech.

                          I think small sentences like those found in the workbooks I have will
                          not pose any problems.

                          I am only starting on paali but i have some language learning
                          experience and I cannot read a 20 word sentence and translate them
                          one for one and learn much. At best i learn vocab doing that but i
                          have better methods for that. This way is good for once you know how
                          to contructs a couple simple sentences.

                          There would be checks and perhaps someone more knowledgable would be
                          able to give some pointers. Possibly I can get in touch with the
                          Sydney University lecturer who teaches pali and get some pointers.

                          I think that people that used to get Latin drills hated it and I feel
                          like that when i look at some of the stuff here. There is nothing
                          wrong with grammar but to a beginner, who may struggle to understand
                          the terms even for their own language, will feel disheartened.

                          We must make learning a gradual process not a jump into the deep end.
                          I am currently deep in university study so i will be doing a little
                          in the way of exercise making in my spare time. Hopefully in a few
                          months i can get a few lessons going. :)
                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Dear Crimian, as I mentioned earlier, people all learn differently. Usually, mature (adult) students, who learn Pali willingly, do not face the same problem.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Mar 10 4:27 PM
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                            Dear Crimian,

                            as I mentioned earlier, people all learn differently. Usually, mature
                            (adult) students, who learn Pali willingly, do not face the same
                            problem. Still, I hope your point will be considered by aspiring
                            authors planning to write new Pali textbooks.

                            The suggestions by Dmytro are good. From your postings and email
                            address, I gather that you are from Australia, and possibly New South
                            Wales. Given your diverse interests, you may also like to consider
                            joining a Buddhist group there.

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, crimian84000 wrote:

                            I think that people that used to get Latin drills hated it and I feel
                            like that when i look at some of the stuff here.
                          • thomaslaw03
                            Dear Pali friend, Does a wisdom-liberated Arahant (as opposed to the both ways liberated Arahant; MN I 477-78) attain at least the first jhana of the four
                            Message 13 of 25 , Mar 13 9:10 PM
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                              Dear Pali friend,

                              Does a wisdom-liberated Arahant (as opposed to the both ways liberated
                              Arahant; MN I 477-78) attain at least 'the first jhana' of the four
                              formless states? It seems that the wisdom-liberated Arahant does not
                              attain all of the four jhanas (Cf. DN II 70-1). Any advice?

                              Sincerely,

                              Thomas Law
                            • crimian84000
                              I find i can go through the textbooks and learn something but even with my interest level and determination to learn it i find there is something missing. Like
                              Message 14 of 25 , Mar 13 11:59 PM
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                                I find i can go through the textbooks and learn something but even
                                with my interest level and determination to learn it i find there is
                                something missing.

                                Like learning a modern language and not hearning it.
                                We may not have know ALL the features of paali pronunciation but
                                cross language study in ancient India does give many good hints.
                                This makes me wonder about the possibilities of a concise beginners
                                course being written.

                                I have learn from several language teaching methods and am starting
                                to see how things may get learners involved.

                                Of course language style is important so a website is a perfect place
                                to do something. Audio, visual and even hints on other sensory
                                dominant or method dominant styles.
                                Flash cards can help some people but not all.
                                Saying the word out lous will help anyone to a degree, even those who
                                are not too audio favouring. I would love to read paali comics.
                                Imagine having artists draw suttas and place the BUddhas discussions
                                in them. It would make things amazing.

                                One thing i think that may be a bit far away now would be short
                                animations.

                                Just some thoughts on projects in the future.

                                A paali site would not attract too many viewers. Not like a Latin or
                                Sanskrit site of the same type. It would make it easier to afford
                                server renting which I would be happy to do in the future.

                                I think with a dedicated team of people a very informative site could
                                get going.

                                Who knows hey?
                              • crimian84000
                                I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not matter at that point. The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps. Similar in
                                Message 15 of 25 , Mar 14 11:10 PM
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                                  I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
                                  matter at that point.
                                  The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
                                  Similar in taste likely.

                                  Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
                                  stict line.
                                  Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
                                  They are also subject to crossover.
                                  To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
                                  Why stuggle for samadhi even.
                                  Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
                                  I would not think so.
                                  Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
                                • thomaslaw03
                                  I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain even the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are destroyed not by samadha
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Mar 17 5:05 PM
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                                    I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain even
                                    the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are destroyed
                                    not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is very different
                                    from any meditative traditions in history.

                                    Thomas Law

                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "crimian84000" <crimian84000@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I would think that a Arahat has shed those states so it does not
                                    > matter at that point.
                                    > The jhana are not going to be the same for everyone perhaps.
                                    > Similar in taste likely.
                                    >
                                    > Jhana is tied also with siila and panna so i do not know if it is a
                                    > stict line.
                                    > Not all people have equal levels in all 3 regions
                                    > They are also subject to crossover.
                                    > To act in quietude and wise effort is not easy I beievve.
                                    > Why stuggle for samadhi even.
                                    > Does one only "get" Jhanas while in traditional meditation positions?
                                    > I would not think so.
                                    > Enough of my ramblings anyway hehe.
                                    >
                                  • crimian84000
                                    ... novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well. ... probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i mean is that one can
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Mar 18 12:09 AM
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                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johan wijaya <dhamma_joti@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Crimian,
                                      >
                                      > What u are thinking to do is actually very great...I'm also a
                                      novice as a Pali learner and this group member as well.
                                      > what I need to you consider first before you undergo that plan is
                                      probably the flexibility of the link, or the work group later. what i
                                      mean is that one can contact to another directly without having to
                                      send messages to the whole group, unless the sender wants to post it.
                                      Do u think it can do? I'm not good at computer anyway.
                                      >
                                      > Sukhi hotu,
                                      >
                                      > Johan.



                                      Well Johan I would like to make it so we can have a chat room and
                                      also linking people up on Messenger and such services.
                                      I am also tinkering with bible merorization software.
                                      They can be easily used for the Tipitaka.

                                      So we would need different levels of learning depending on the time
                                      and ability among other things.
                                      Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose to
                                      study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
                                      verse.
                                      Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
                                      as well as memorization.

                                      Surely there are other things that can also be done.

                                      Yahoo groups will most likely only be 1 part of the project.
                                      I am beginning to prepare for it now but it may be quite some time
                                      before it has got enough to use well.

                                      I do no want to do 1 lesson a week and strugle to get it online if
                                      soemthing comes up.
                                      Preparing about 3 months worth before hand and then adding to it
                                      later would be the best approach.

                                      Any ideas are welcome as well as anyone interested in helping.
                                      Talk to me online at akaaliko.crimian@...
                                      This would be a large project if it gets going and one deserving of
                                      the teaching of the Noble One.

                                      P.S. Does anyone here know of a page of statistics for the Tipitaka?
                                      Verses, divisions, and words etc. Thanks all.
                                    • rjkjp1
                                      ... even ... destroyed ... different ... Dear Thomas Because the way of insight is unique to Dhamma. In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Mar 18 9:54 PM
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                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "thomaslaw03" <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I am concerned that if the wisdom-liberated Arahat does not attain
                                        even
                                        > the first form-level Jhana (DN II 70-1), then he aasavaa are
                                        destroyed
                                        > not by samadha but by ''seeing'' with wisdom. This is very
                                        different
                                        > from any meditative traditions in history.
                                        >
                                        > Thomas Law
                                        >
                                        Dear Thomas
                                        Because the way of insight is unique to Dhamma.

                                        In the Susima sutta the Buddha explained about sukkavipassaka
                                        arhants - those who are liberated without having jhana.
                                        Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:

                                        i]Saratthappakasini (Atthakatha) :
                                        Why is this said? For the purpose
                                        of showing the arising of
                                        knowledge thus even without concentration.
                                        This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
                                        concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
                                        concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
                                        (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
                                        advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight.
                                        Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of
                                        the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
                                        Spk-pt (tika): 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even
                                        without
                                        previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
                                        characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
                                        referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
                                        (vipassanayanika)..."[/i]

                                        Robert
                                      • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
                                        Hello Crimian, ... You may find useful the material at http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali.htm Metta, Dmytro
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 19 1:42 AM
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                                          Hello Crimian,

                                          > Hopefully it can be a modulated study so one can pick and choose to
                                          > study 1 verse or so at a time and perform multiple tasks on that
                                          > verse.
                                          > Grammar, pronunciation, meaning and reflection (group and individual,
                                          > as well as memorization.

                                          You may find useful the material at
                                          http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali.htm

                                          Metta, Dmytro
                                        • Michael Beisert
                                          Susima Sutta: Thanissaro Bhikkhu note: This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 19 7:00 AM
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                                            Susima Sutta:

                                            Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:

                                            This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas, but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no different from that given in AN 9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness" and "released in both ways" given in AN 9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.html> and AN 9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.html>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first jhana before attaining Awakening.

                                            Michael

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • thomaslaw03
                                            Michael, How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a). Thomas Law ... attain Awakening (final
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Mar 21 3:49 PM
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                                              Michael,

                                              How about this sutta: DN II 70-71, and also the Chinese counterpart
                                              of Susima Sutta: SA 347 (T2 pp. 96a-98a).

                                              Thomas Law

                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" <mbeisert@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Susima Sutta:
                                              >
                                              > Thanissaro Bhikkhu note:
                                              >
                                              > This discourse is sometimes cited as proof that a meditator can
                                              attain Awakening (final gnosis) without having practiced the jhanas,
                                              but a close reading shows that it does not support this assertion at
                                              all. The new arahants mentioned here do not deny that they have
                                              attained any of the four "form" jhanas that make up the definition of
                                              right concentration. Instead, they simply deny that they have
                                              acquired any psychic powers or that they remain in physical contact
                                              with the higher levels of concentration, "the formless states beyond
                                              forms." In this, their definition of "discernment-release" is no
                                              different from that given in AN
                                              9.44<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.htm
                                              l> (compare this with the definitions for "bodily witness"
                                              and "released in both ways" given in AN
                                              9.43<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.043.than.htm
                                              l> and AN
                                              9.45<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.htm
                                              l>) Taken in the context of the Buddha's many other teachings on
                                              right concentration, there's every reason to believe that the new
                                              arahants mentioned in this discourse had reached at least the first
                                              jhana before attaining Awakening.
                                              >
                                              > Michael
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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