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Re: [Pali] Help in translating a half verse from the Mahaaniddesa I.42

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  • P G Dave
    Dear Karen, It seems more like: (when) mind dissolves, the world is dead (comes to an ends), pan~n~a arises for the purpose of ultimate realisation. metta.
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 15, 2007
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      Dear Karen,

      It seems more like:

      (when) mind dissolves, the world is dead (comes to an ends), pan~n~a arises
      for the purpose of ultimate realisation.

      metta.
      ___________________________________

      On 2/14/07, keren_arbel <keren_arbel@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am not sure how to analyse a half verse from the Mahaaniddesa [PTS
      > I.42, verse 5]:
      >
      > cittabhangaa mato loko pan~n~atti paramatthiyaa
      >
      > cittabhangaa: ablative "when the mind dissolves/stopes"
      > mato loko: Nominative "world is dead"
      > pan~n~atti: Nominative "making known"
      > paramatthiyaa: paramam (Accusative) atthiyaa
      > (meaning/realization/attainment) "highest meaning/realization"
      >
      > I'm not sure what kind of form is atthiyaa. What is this ending
      > (iyaa), is atthiyaa a derivative of attha? If so, what will be the
      > difference in meaning?
      >
      > The only logical translation I could find is:
      > "Because the highest meaning/realization is known, the world is dead
      > when the mind dissolves".
      >
      > I will appreciate any help in explaining me this half verse.
      > Mettacittena,
      > keren.
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • keren_arbel
      Dear Nina, Sorry I forgot to put an alternative translation in the previous message: when the mind has stopped, the world is dead - [dead as]a concept in the
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 15, 2007
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        Dear Nina,

        Sorry I forgot to put an alternative translation in the previous
        message:

        "when the mind has stopped, the world is dead -
        [dead as]a concept in the highest sense".

        And last question, how did you know Buddhaghosa translated these
        verses?

        Good morning,
        Keren.
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Keren, How is your translation of Pali into Hebrew getting on? ... The beyond will be the word param , and will refer to the state after death ( param
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 16, 2007
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          Dear Keren,
          How is your translation of Pali into Hebrew getting on?
          ---------
          The "beyond" will be the word "param", and will refer to the state
          after death ("param can also mean "after").
          If we take the "world" (loka) as refering to the five aggregates,
          than the aggregates are not paramattha dhammas?
          --------
          N: Loka can refer to the five khandhas. These however are surely
          paramattha dhamms, ultimate realities. They are nama and rupa
          classified as five khandhas.
          As Ole said: paramatthiyaa is an adjective and belongs to pa~n~natti,
          which can be translated as description. Thus: description in the
          ultimate sense.
          The link did not work. If you give the sutta of the Suttaniddesa I
          can look up my Thai text.
          So also the verse you give, I would like to see the Thai:

          <nibbattaana~nca dhammaana.m bhango tesa.m purakkhato,
          palokadhammaa ti.t.thanti puraa.nehi amissitaa.>

          "The dissolution of the existing phenomena happen first(purakkhato),
          the stopped phenomena is at rest, unmixed with with past
          [phenomena]".


          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Keren. I recognized these verses as being in the Visuddhimagga. What you say below is quite different. I rather keep to the Visuddhimagga. Nina. ...
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 16, 2007
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            Dear Keren.
            I recognized these verses as being in the Visuddhimagga. What you say
            below is quite different. I rather keep to the Visuddhimagga.
            Nina.
            Op 16-feb-2007, om 8:18 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

            > "when the mind has stopped, the world is dead -
            > [dead as]a concept in the highest sense".
            >
            > And last question, how did you know Buddhaghosa translated these
            > verses?



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ole Holten Pind
            pa.n.natti is usually translated as concept, and this is what we find in PED. It is manifestly wrong as the literature indicates. It means term, designation,
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 16, 2007
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              pa.n.natti is usually translated as concept, and this is what we find in
              PED. It is manifestly wrong as the literature indicates. It means term,
              designation, description, statement or the like. A statement like "a person
              (loka) is dead as the mind is annihilated, is a statement that is ultimately
              true."

              Regards,
              Ole Holten Pind

              _____

              Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
              keren_arbel
              Sendt: 16. februar 2007 08:18
              Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: [Pali] Re: Help in translating a half verse from the Mahaaniddesa I.42



              Dear Nina,

              Sorry I forgot to put an alternative translation in the previous
              message:

              "when the mind has stopped, the world is dead -
              [dead as]a concept in the highest sense".

              And last question, how did you know Buddhaghosa translated these
              verses?

              Good morning,
              Keren.






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • keren_arbel
              Dear Nina, The Sutta is Guha.t.thakasuttaniddesa of the Mahaaniddesa (the VRI gives the number 48 in the Thai reference). My translations into Hebrew is going
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 16, 2007
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                Dear Nina,

                The Sutta is Guha.t.thakasuttaniddesa of the Mahaaniddesa (the VRI
                gives the number 48 in the Thai reference).
                My translations into Hebrew is going well, slow sometimes (like now
                with these verses), but enjoying every minute...

                Dear Ole Holten Pind,
                So translating this verse like this is correct?:

                "When the mind has stopped, the world is dead -
                this is the ultimate description."

                Thanks again,
                Keren.
              • Ole Holten Pind
                loka does not denote the world. The present usage is somewhat unusual. In the plural lokaa denotes people, persons. I take the singular to denote a person.
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 17, 2007
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                  loka does not denote the world. The present usage is somewhat unusual. In
                  the plural lokaa denotes people, persons. I take the singular to denote a
                  person. loka in the sense of world does not make sense in the present
                  context which is concerned with santaana.

                  Regards,
                  Ole Holten Pind

                  _____

                  Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
                  keren_arbel
                  Sendt: 17. februar 2007 08:10
                  Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: [Pali] Re: Help in translating a half verse from the Mahaaniddesa I.42



                  Dear Nina,

                  The Sutta is Guha.t.thakasuttaniddesa of the Mahaaniddesa (the VRI
                  gives the number 48 in the Thai reference).
                  My translations into Hebrew is going well, slow sometimes (like now
                  with these verses), but enjoying every minute...

                  Dear Ole Holten Pind,
                  So translating this verse like this is correct?:

                  "When the mind has stopped, the world is dead -
                  this is the ultimate description."

                  Thanks again,
                  Keren.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Ole and Keren, it is interesting Ole uses santaana. Visuddhimagga VIII, 39, note 11 gives an explanation of the whole passage:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 18, 2007
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                    Dear Ole and Keren,
                    it is interesting Ole uses santaana. Visuddhimagga VIII, 39, note 11
                    gives an explanation of the whole passage: <the ultimate sense will
                    allow this concept of continuity, which is what the expression of
                    common usage "Tissa lives, Phussa lives" refers to, and which is
                    based on consciousnesses [momentary] existing along with a physical
                    support; this belongs to the ultimate sense here, since, as they say,
                    "It is not the name and surname that lives.">
                    In the same note there is a long explanation of pa~n~natti.
                    twentyfour kinds being dealt with in the Commentary to the
                    Puggalapa~n~natti.
                    You suggested description, and true, it is derived from pa`n~napana:
                    making known, and .thapana. placing.
                    Vijamaana-pa~nanatti, avijamaana-pa~n`natti, etc. . I have no time to
                    elaborate further.

                    More on loka in the sutta on the cave: apaaya loka, manussaloka,
                    devaloka, khandhaloka, dhaatuloka, aayatanaloka. Depending on the
                    context it can refer to sammuti sacca or to paramamattha sacca.
                    The Co. to the satipa.t.thaanasutta: loka: the five khandhas.
                    For the time being I give my attention now to Yong Peng's sutta.
                    Nina.

                    Op 17-feb-2007, om 11:51 heeft Ole Holten Pind het volgende geschreven:

                    > loka does not denote the world. The present usage is somewhat
                    > unusual. In
                    > the plural lokaa denotes people, persons. I take the singular to
                    > denote a
                    > person. loka in the sense of world does not make sense in the present
                    > context which is concerned with santaana.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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