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Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear friends, the commentary recommends the third line to be read as: duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he In
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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      Dear friends,

      the commentary recommends the third line to be read as:

      duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
      in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
      In (allurement) remote from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

      metta,
      Yong Peng.


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

      duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
      in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
      In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Ole, I think the key is probably satta , which have several meanings, another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient being. For
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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        Dear Ole,

        I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
        another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
        being.

        For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

        satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
        ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

        Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
        the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

        Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
        further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
        beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

        All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
        remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
        defilements in himself (the body)".

        However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

        The being, tainted by many in the cave,
        the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

        Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
        like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

        It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
        stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
        explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
        practice.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

        The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
        immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
        for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
        attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
        However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
        guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
        and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
        is an example of commentarial ingenuity.
      • Ole Holten Pind
        Dear Ong Yong Peng, I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body.
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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          Dear Ong Yong Peng,

          I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in
          the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body. The few
          occurrences are invariably to caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only
          mean covered, and it is constructed with instr. of the thing
          something/someone is covered with. However, what does covered with many
          refer to? The idea of someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very
          unlikely. It probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of
          them objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.

          Regards,
          Ole Holten Pind

          _____

          Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong
          Peng
          Sendt: 10. februar 2007 02:07
          Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



          Dear Ole,

          I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
          another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
          being.

          For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

          satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
          ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

          Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
          the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

          Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
          further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
          beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

          All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
          remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
          defilements in himself (the body)".

          However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

          The being, tainted by many in the cave,
          the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

          Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
          like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

          It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
          stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
          explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
          practice.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com, Ole Holten
          Pind wrote:

          The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
          immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
          for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
          attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
          However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
          guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
          and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
          is an example of commentarial ingenuity.






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Ole, thanks for the information. I agree that (simply) covered with kilesas does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing the commentary
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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            Dear Ole,

            thanks for the information. I agree that "(simply) covered with
            kilesas" does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing
            the commentary (again), I think it is more appropriate in today's
            language to say "tainted with kilesas/defilements". :-)

            However, I do agree that 'bahu' can refer to anything because of the
            liberal construct. I think your interpretation, though unconventional,
            is another alternative way of understanding the verse.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

            There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used
            metaphorically of the body. The few occurrences are invariably to
            caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only mean covered, and it is
            constructed with instr. of the thing something/someone is covered
            with. However, what does covered with many refer to? The idea of
            someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very unlikely. It
            probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of them
            objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.
          • Ole Holten Pind
            Dear Yong Peng, The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 11, 2007
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              Dear Yong Peng,

              The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer
              to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I think the
              verse makes perfect sense when interpreted in the light of the early
              Buddhists' attitude towards wearing fancy clothing, jewelry, garlands etc.
              Take, for instance, the description found in Brahmajalasuttanta and compare
              it to the rules of the patimokkha.

              Best wishes,
              Ole Pind



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Ole, thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need. I will put it in when I make an entry for the term. metta, Yong Peng. ... The
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 13, 2007
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                Dear Ole,

                thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need.
                I will put it in when I make an entry for the term.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa
                refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense.
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