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SV: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa

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  • Ole Holten Pind
    The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for mohana. I am not
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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      The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
      immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for
      mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being attached (satta)
      to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though. However, this remains the
      only example in the canon of the use of guhaa to denote the body,
      metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa and PJ I, of course, takes it to
      stand for the body. I wonder if this is an example of commentarial
      ingenuity.

      With best wishes,
      Ole Holten Pind

      _____

      Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Piya Tan
      Sendt: 8. februar 2007 15:36
      Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



      Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
      body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
      repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
      is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
      hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

      This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
      an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
      early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
      to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

      Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
      what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
      all the planets in wondrous alignment.

      Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
      is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
      indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
      practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

      May we enter the stream in this life itself.

      Piya Tan

      On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all. <mailto:vangorko%40xs4all.nl>
      nl> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Keren and Ole,
      > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
      > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
      > Nina.
      > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
      >
      > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
      > > seem correct.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear friends, I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear: satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno, attached / in the cave / covered with much Attached, tainted
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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        Dear friends,

        I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear:

        satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
        attached / in the cave / covered with much
        Attached, tainted by many in the cave,

        ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
        standing / man / immersed in enticement
        the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

        duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
        in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
        In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

        kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa
        sensual desires / alas / in world / not / indeed / having renounced easily
        alas, renounces easily not indeed, the sensual desires in the world.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

        Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
        engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
        indeed, from detachment he is,
        renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear friends, the commentary recommends the third line to be read as: duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he In
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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          Dear friends,

          the commentary recommends the third line to be read as:

          duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
          in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
          In (allurement) remote from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

          duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
          in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
          In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Ole, I think the key is probably satta , which have several meanings, another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient being. For
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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            Dear Ole,

            I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
            another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
            being.

            For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

            satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
            ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

            Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
            the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

            Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
            further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
            beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

            All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
            remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
            defilements in himself (the body)".

            However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

            The being, tainted by many in the cave,
            the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

            Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
            like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

            It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
            stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
            explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
            practice.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

            The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
            immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
            for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
            attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
            However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
            guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
            and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
            is an example of commentarial ingenuity.
          • Ole Holten Pind
            Dear Ong Yong Peng, I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body.
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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              Dear Ong Yong Peng,

              I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in
              the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body. The few
              occurrences are invariably to caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only
              mean covered, and it is constructed with instr. of the thing
              something/someone is covered with. However, what does covered with many
              refer to? The idea of someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very
              unlikely. It probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of
              them objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.

              Regards,
              Ole Holten Pind

              _____

              Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong
              Peng
              Sendt: 10. februar 2007 02:07
              Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



              Dear Ole,

              I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
              another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
              being.

              For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

              satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
              ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

              Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
              the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

              Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
              further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
              beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

              All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
              remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
              defilements in himself (the body)".

              However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

              The being, tainted by many in the cave,
              the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

              Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
              like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

              It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
              stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
              explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
              practice.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com, Ole Holten
              Pind wrote:

              The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
              immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
              for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
              attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
              However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
              guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
              and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
              is an example of commentarial ingenuity.






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Ole, thanks for the information. I agree that (simply) covered with kilesas does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing the commentary
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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                Dear Ole,

                thanks for the information. I agree that "(simply) covered with
                kilesas" does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing
                the commentary (again), I think it is more appropriate in today's
                language to say "tainted with kilesas/defilements". :-)

                However, I do agree that 'bahu' can refer to anything because of the
                liberal construct. I think your interpretation, though unconventional,
                is another alternative way of understanding the verse.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used
                metaphorically of the body. The few occurrences are invariably to
                caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only mean covered, and it is
                constructed with instr. of the thing something/someone is covered
                with. However, what does covered with many refer to? The idea of
                someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very unlikely. It
                probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of them
                objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.
              • Ole Holten Pind
                Dear Yong Peng, The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 11, 2007
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                  Dear Yong Peng,

                  The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer
                  to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I think the
                  verse makes perfect sense when interpreted in the light of the early
                  Buddhists' attitude towards wearing fancy clothing, jewelry, garlands etc.
                  Take, for instance, the description found in Brahmajalasuttanta and compare
                  it to the rules of the patimokkha.

                  Best wishes,
                  Ole Pind



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Ole, thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need. I will put it in when I make an entry for the term. metta, Yong Peng. ... The
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 13, 2007
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                    Dear Ole,

                    thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need.
                    I will put it in when I make an entry for the term.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                    The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa
                    refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense.
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