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Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa

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  • Piya Tan
    Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says to the cave means to the body (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by repeating the
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
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      Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
      body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
      repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
      is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
      hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

      This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
      an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
      early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
      to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

      Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
      what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
      all the planets in wondrous alignment.

      Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
      is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
      indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
      practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

      May we enter the stream in this life itself.

      Piya Tan


      On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Keren and Ole,
      > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
      > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
      > Nina.
      > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
      >
      > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
      > > seem correct.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren, I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living tradition and living master, let s not forget about
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
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        Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren,

        I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living
        tradition and living master, let's not forget about living language,
        which is the main objective of this group!

        Here is my attempt on the English translation:

        Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
        engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
        indeed, from detachment he is,
        renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.

        satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
        attached, in the cave, covered with much,

        * satta [=laggo (comm)] (adj) attached.
        * guhaa (f) cave.
        * bahunaabhichanna = covered with much.
        - bahu (adj) much.
        - abhicchanna (adj) covered with.

        ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
        standing, the man, immersed in enticement;

        * ti.t.thanta (ppr of ti.t.thati) standing.
        * nara (m) man.
        * mohana (n) making dull or stupid, infatuation, enticement, allurement.
        * pagaa.lha (pp of pagaahati) sunk into, immersed in.

        duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so,
        remote indeed, from detachment he (is) so.

        * duura (adj) distant, remote.
        * viveka (m) detachment.
        * hi (indec) indeed.
        * tathaavidha (adv) [see tathaa] such like, so.

        kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa.
        sensual desires indeed, in this world indeed, not easily renounced.

        * kaama (m, n) sensual desire.
        * loka (m) world.
        * na (neg) not.
        * suppahaaya = having renounced easily.
        - pahaaya (ger of pajahati) having renounced.

        Please correct me if there is any mistake.


        metta,
        Yong Peng.



        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:

        Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to
        the body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues
        by repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave'
        because it is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust
        and so on" (kaayo hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti
        vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

        > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The
        > Commentary explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas.
      • Ole Holten Pind
        The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for mohana. I am not
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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          The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
          immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for
          mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being attached (satta)
          to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though. However, this remains the
          only example in the canon of the use of guhaa to denote the body,
          metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa and PJ I, of course, takes it to
          stand for the body. I wonder if this is an example of commentarial
          ingenuity.

          With best wishes,
          Ole Holten Pind

          _____

          Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Piya Tan
          Sendt: 8. februar 2007 15:36
          Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



          Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
          body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
          repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
          is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
          hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

          This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
          an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
          early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
          to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

          Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
          what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
          all the planets in wondrous alignment.

          Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
          is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
          indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
          practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

          May we enter the stream in this life itself.

          Piya Tan

          On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all. <mailto:vangorko%40xs4all.nl>
          nl> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Keren and Ole,
          > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
          > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
          > Nina.
          > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
          > > seem correct.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear friends, I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear: satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno, attached / in the cave / covered with much Attached, tainted
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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            Dear friends,

            I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear:

            satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
            attached / in the cave / covered with much
            Attached, tainted by many in the cave,

            ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
            standing / man / immersed in enticement
            the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

            duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
            in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
            In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

            kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa
            sensual desires / alas / in world / not / indeed / having renounced easily
            alas, renounces easily not indeed, the sensual desires in the world.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

            Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
            engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
            indeed, from detachment he is,
            renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear friends, the commentary recommends the third line to be read as: duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he In
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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              Dear friends,

              the commentary recommends the third line to be read as:

              duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
              in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
              In (allurement) remote from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

              duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
              in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
              In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Ole, I think the key is probably satta , which have several meanings, another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient being. For
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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                Dear Ole,

                I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                being.

                For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                defilements in himself (the body)".

                However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                practice.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                is an example of commentarial ingenuity.
              • Ole Holten Pind
                Dear Ong Yong Peng, I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body.
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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                  Dear Ong Yong Peng,

                  I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in
                  the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body. The few
                  occurrences are invariably to caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only
                  mean covered, and it is constructed with instr. of the thing
                  something/someone is covered with. However, what does covered with many
                  refer to? The idea of someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very
                  unlikely. It probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of
                  them objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.

                  Regards,
                  Ole Holten Pind

                  _____

                  Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong
                  Peng
                  Sendt: 10. februar 2007 02:07
                  Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                  Dear Ole,

                  I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                  another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                  being.

                  For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                  satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                  ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                  Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                  the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                  Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                  further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                  beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                  All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                  remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                  defilements in himself (the body)".

                  However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                  The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                  the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                  Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                  like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                  It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                  stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                  explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                  practice.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com, Ole Holten
                  Pind wrote:

                  The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                  immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                  for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                  attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                  However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                  guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                  and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                  is an example of commentarial ingenuity.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Ole, thanks for the information. I agree that (simply) covered with kilesas does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing the commentary
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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                    Dear Ole,

                    thanks for the information. I agree that "(simply) covered with
                    kilesas" does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing
                    the commentary (again), I think it is more appropriate in today's
                    language to say "tainted with kilesas/defilements". :-)

                    However, I do agree that 'bahu' can refer to anything because of the
                    liberal construct. I think your interpretation, though unconventional,
                    is another alternative way of understanding the verse.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                    There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used
                    metaphorically of the body. The few occurrences are invariably to
                    caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only mean covered, and it is
                    constructed with instr. of the thing something/someone is covered
                    with. However, what does covered with many refer to? The idea of
                    someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very unlikely. It
                    probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of them
                    objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.
                  • Ole Holten Pind
                    Dear Yong Peng, The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 11, 2007
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                      Dear Yong Peng,

                      The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer
                      to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I think the
                      verse makes perfect sense when interpreted in the light of the early
                      Buddhists' attitude towards wearing fancy clothing, jewelry, garlands etc.
                      Take, for instance, the description found in Brahmajalasuttanta and compare
                      it to the rules of the patimokkha.

                      Best wishes,
                      Ole Pind



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Ole, thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need. I will put it in when I make an entry for the term. metta, Yong Peng. ... The
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 13, 2007
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                        Dear Ole,

                        thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need.
                        I will put it in when I make an entry for the term.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                        The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa
                        refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense.
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