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Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa

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  • keren_arbel
    dear Ole Holten Pind, I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn t seem correct. Thanks, Keren.
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 7 10:45 PM
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      dear Ole Holten Pind,

      I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
      seem correct.

      Thanks,
      Keren.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Keren and Ole, It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 8 6:16 AM
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        Dear Keren and Ole,
        It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
        explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
        Nina.
        Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

        > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
        > seem correct.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says to the cave means to the body (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by repeating the
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 8 6:35 AM
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          Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
          body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
          repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
          is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
          hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

          This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
          an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
          early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
          to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

          Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
          what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
          all the planets in wondrous alignment.

          Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
          is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
          indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
          practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

          May we enter the stream in this life itself.

          Piya Tan


          On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Keren and Ole,
          > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
          > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
          > Nina.
          > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
          > > seem correct.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren, I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living tradition and living master, let s not forget about
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 8 2:09 PM
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            Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren,

            I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living
            tradition and living master, let's not forget about living language,
            which is the main objective of this group!

            Here is my attempt on the English translation:

            Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
            engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
            indeed, from detachment he is,
            renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.

            satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
            attached, in the cave, covered with much,

            * satta [=laggo (comm)] (adj) attached.
            * guhaa (f) cave.
            * bahunaabhichanna = covered with much.
            - bahu (adj) much.
            - abhicchanna (adj) covered with.

            ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
            standing, the man, immersed in enticement;

            * ti.t.thanta (ppr of ti.t.thati) standing.
            * nara (m) man.
            * mohana (n) making dull or stupid, infatuation, enticement, allurement.
            * pagaa.lha (pp of pagaahati) sunk into, immersed in.

            duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so,
            remote indeed, from detachment he (is) so.

            * duura (adj) distant, remote.
            * viveka (m) detachment.
            * hi (indec) indeed.
            * tathaavidha (adv) [see tathaa] such like, so.

            kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa.
            sensual desires indeed, in this world indeed, not easily renounced.

            * kaama (m, n) sensual desire.
            * loka (m) world.
            * na (neg) not.
            * suppahaaya = having renounced easily.
            - pahaaya (ger of pajahati) having renounced.

            Please correct me if there is any mistake.


            metta,
            Yong Peng.



            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:

            Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to
            the body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues
            by repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave'
            because it is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust
            and so on" (kaayo hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti
            vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

            > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The
            > Commentary explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas.
          • Ole Holten Pind
            The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for mohana. I am not
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 9 1:13 AM
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              The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
              immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for
              mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being attached (satta)
              to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though. However, this remains the
              only example in the canon of the use of guhaa to denote the body,
              metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa and PJ I, of course, takes it to
              stand for the body. I wonder if this is an example of commentarial
              ingenuity.

              With best wishes,
              Ole Holten Pind

              _____

              Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Piya Tan
              Sendt: 8. februar 2007 15:36
              Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



              Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
              body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
              repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
              is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
              hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

              This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
              an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
              early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
              to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

              Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
              what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
              all the planets in wondrous alignment.

              Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
              is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
              indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
              practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

              May we enter the stream in this life itself.

              Piya Tan

              On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all. <mailto:vangorko%40xs4all.nl>
              nl> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Keren and Ole,
              > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
              > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
              > Nina.
              > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
              >
              > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
              > > seem correct.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear friends, I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear: satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno, attached / in the cave / covered with much Attached, tainted
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 9 3:46 PM
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                Dear friends,

                I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear:

                satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                attached / in the cave / covered with much
                Attached, tainted by many in the cave,

                ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
                standing / man / immersed in enticement
                the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

                kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa
                sensual desires / alas / in world / not / indeed / having renounced easily
                alas, renounces easily not indeed, the sensual desires in the world.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
                engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
                indeed, from detachment he is,
                renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear friends, the commentary recommends the third line to be read as: duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he In
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 9 4:10 PM
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                  Dear friends,

                  the commentary recommends the third line to be read as:

                  duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                  in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                  In (allurement) remote from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                  duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                  in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                  In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Ole, I think the key is probably satta , which have several meanings, another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient being. For
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 9 5:07 PM
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                    Dear Ole,

                    I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                    another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                    being.

                    For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                    satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                    ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                    Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                    the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                    Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                    further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                    beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                    All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                    remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                    defilements in himself (the body)".

                    However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                    The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                    the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                    Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                    like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                    It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                    stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                    explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                    practice.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                    The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                    immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                    for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                    attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                    However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                    guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                    and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                    is an example of commentarial ingenuity.
                  • Ole Holten Pind
                    Dear Ong Yong Peng, I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 10 4:16 AM
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                      Dear Ong Yong Peng,

                      I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in
                      the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body. The few
                      occurrences are invariably to caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only
                      mean covered, and it is constructed with instr. of the thing
                      something/someone is covered with. However, what does covered with many
                      refer to? The idea of someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very
                      unlikely. It probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of
                      them objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.

                      Regards,
                      Ole Holten Pind

                      _____

                      Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong
                      Peng
                      Sendt: 10. februar 2007 02:07
                      Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                      Dear Ole,

                      I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                      another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                      being.

                      For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                      satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                      ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                      Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                      the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                      Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                      further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                      beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                      All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                      remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                      defilements in himself (the body)".

                      However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                      The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                      the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                      Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                      like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                      It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                      stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                      explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                      practice.

                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com, Ole Holten
                      Pind wrote:

                      The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                      immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                      for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                      attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                      However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                      guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                      and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                      is an example of commentarial ingenuity.






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Ole, thanks for the information. I agree that (simply) covered with kilesas does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing the commentary
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 10 5:45 PM
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                        Dear Ole,

                        thanks for the information. I agree that "(simply) covered with
                        kilesas" does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing
                        the commentary (again), I think it is more appropriate in today's
                        language to say "tainted with kilesas/defilements". :-)

                        However, I do agree that 'bahu' can refer to anything because of the
                        liberal construct. I think your interpretation, though unconventional,
                        is another alternative way of understanding the verse.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                        There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used
                        metaphorically of the body. The few occurrences are invariably to
                        caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only mean covered, and it is
                        constructed with instr. of the thing something/someone is covered
                        with. However, what does covered with many refer to? The idea of
                        someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very unlikely. It
                        probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of them
                        objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.
                      • Ole Holten Pind
                        Dear Yong Peng, The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 11 2:09 AM
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                          Dear Yong Peng,

                          The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer
                          to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I think the
                          verse makes perfect sense when interpreted in the light of the early
                          Buddhists' attitude towards wearing fancy clothing, jewelry, garlands etc.
                          Take, for instance, the description found in Brahmajalasuttanta and compare
                          it to the rules of the patimokkha.

                          Best wishes,
                          Ole Pind



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Dear Ole, thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need. I will put it in when I make an entry for the term. metta, Yong Peng. ... The
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 13 1:06 AM
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                            Dear Ole,

                            thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need.
                            I will put it in when I make an entry for the term.

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng.


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                            The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa
                            refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.