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SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa

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  • Ole Holten Pind
    The first verse of the Guha.t.thaka-sutta explains this compound. It denotes someone standing in a cave guhaa. Ole Holten Pind _____ Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
      The first verse of the Guha.t.thaka-sutta explains this compound. It denotes
      someone standing in a cave guhaa.
      Ole Holten Pind

      _____

      Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
      keren_arbel
      Sendt: 5. februar 2007 11:08
      Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



      Hi everyone,

      I cannot find the word guhat.t.haka in the dictionary. Can anyone help
      me understand this word/compound?

      Thanks,
      Have a wonderful week,
      Keren.






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Keren, a.t.thaka means of the eights, it is the Chapter of the Eights. Other headings are dukkha.t.thaka (Evil),suddha.t.thaka. purity. Nina. ...
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
        Dear Keren,
        a.t.thaka means of the eights, it is the Chapter of the Eights. Other
        headings are dukkha.t.thaka (Evil),suddha.t.thaka. purity.
        Nina.
        Op 5-feb-2007, om 11:07 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

        > guhat.t.haka



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • keren_arbel
        ... Other ... Dear Nina, Thank you. So the meaning of Guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, will be the analysis of the sutta from the [chapter] of the eights about the
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Keren,
          > a.t.thaka means of the eights, it is the Chapter of the Eights.
          Other
          > headings are dukkha.t.thaka (Evil),suddha.t.thaka. purity.
          > Nina.
          > Op 5-feb-2007, om 11:07 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > guhat.t.haka
          >
          Dear Nina,

          Thank you. So the meaning of Guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, will be "the
          analysis of the sutta from the [chapter] of the eights about the
          cave"?
          I'm just wandering why sometimes there is a long a when two words
          are connected, and why sometimes there is just a.
          Thanks,
          Keren
        • keren_arbel
          Dear Ole Holten Pind, Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave? In the rest of
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 6, 2007
            Dear Ole Holten Pind,

            Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as
            Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave?
            In the rest of the verse it is said that this same man is "covered
            with many [defilements]" and not that inside the cave there are
            defilements. I just don't get this simile...

            Thanks for any explanaation,
            Mettacittena,
            Keren.
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Keren, In compounds the stems are used of the nouns. Whether we see sometimes a long a depends on the context. There can also be a negation a inside a
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
              Dear Keren,
              In compounds the stems are used of the nouns. Whether we see
              sometimes a long a depends on the context. There can also be a
              negation a inside a compound, very tricky.
              I have the Sutta and co in Thai, it is very long, but it is good.
              The body is bound up with kaama. Kaama are: vatthu kaama: the sense
              objects, the basis of clinging, or kilesa kaama: the kilesas. The
              sense objects are rupas and these can be experienced through the
              senses. When there is the body there is eyesense, earsense, etc. The
              body is compared to a room for the defilements. As we read, one is
              far from viveka, detachment. There are three vivekas: kaaya viveka,
              citta viveka and upadhi viveka.
              We are as it were intoxicated, and isn't this true?

              Nina.
              Op 6-feb-2007, om 14:46 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

              > Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as
              > Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave?



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Ole, Nina and Keren, Ole is right that this niddesa talks about guhaa. As for the title, guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, it is a four-part compound meaning the
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
                Dear Ole, Nina and Keren,

                Ole is right that this niddesa talks about guhaa.

                As for the title, guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, it is a four-part compound
                meaning "the 'niddesa' of 'eight' 'suttas' on 'guhaa'", as Nina explained.


                metta,
                Yong Peng.

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                The first verse of the Guha.t.thaka-sutta explains this compound. It
                denotes someone standing in a cave guhaa.

                > I cannot find the word guhat.t.haka in the dictionary. Can anyone
                help me understand this word/compound?
              • Ole Holten Pind
                Dear Keren, It is not at all clear whether guhaa denotes the body in this verse. The old commentary thinks so, but I am sceptical about whether or not this is
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
                  Dear Keren,

                  It is not at all clear whether guhaa denotes the body in this verse. The old
                  commentary thinks so, but I am sceptical about whether or not this is true.
                  In fact, there is no passage in the canon that would support the view that
                  the body is like a cave. In addition, many of the verses of the Suttanipata
                  are peculiar and have no parallels in the canon as such. The
                  interpretatition is therefore dubious.

                  The one who is confined to a cave does not see the light i.e. the dhamma.
                  This in my view explains the metaphor, because it is, evidently a metaphor.

                  Regards
                  Ole Holten Pind





                  _____

                  Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
                  keren_arbel
                  Sendt: 6. februar 2007 14:47
                  Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: Re: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                  Dear Ole Holten Pind,

                  Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as
                  Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave?
                  In the rest of the verse it is said that this same man is "covered
                  with many [defilements]" and not that inside the cave there are
                  defilements. I just don't get this simile...

                  Thanks for any explanaation,
                  Mettacittena,
                  Keren.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • keren_arbel
                  dear Ole Holten Pind, I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn t seem correct. Thanks, Keren.
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
                    dear Ole Holten Pind,

                    I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                    seem correct.

                    Thanks,
                    Keren.
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Keren and Ole, It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
                      Dear Keren and Ole,
                      It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
                      explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                      Nina.
                      Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

                      > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                      > seem correct.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Piya Tan
                      Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says to the cave means to the body (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by repeating the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
                        Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
                        body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
                        repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
                        is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
                        hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

                        This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
                        an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
                        early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
                        to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

                        Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
                        what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
                        all the planets in wondrous alignment.

                        Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
                        is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
                        indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
                        practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

                        May we enter the stream in this life itself.

                        Piya Tan


                        On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Keren and Ole,
                        > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
                        > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                        > Nina.
                        > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
                        >
                        > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                        > > seem correct.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ong Yong Peng
                        Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren, I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living tradition and living master, let s not forget about
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
                          Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren,

                          I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living
                          tradition and living master, let's not forget about living language,
                          which is the main objective of this group!

                          Here is my attempt on the English translation:

                          Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
                          engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
                          indeed, from detachment he is,
                          renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.

                          satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                          attached, in the cave, covered with much,

                          * satta [=laggo (comm)] (adj) attached.
                          * guhaa (f) cave.
                          * bahunaabhichanna = covered with much.
                          - bahu (adj) much.
                          - abhicchanna (adj) covered with.

                          ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
                          standing, the man, immersed in enticement;

                          * ti.t.thanta (ppr of ti.t.thati) standing.
                          * nara (m) man.
                          * mohana (n) making dull or stupid, infatuation, enticement, allurement.
                          * pagaa.lha (pp of pagaahati) sunk into, immersed in.

                          duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so,
                          remote indeed, from detachment he (is) so.

                          * duura (adj) distant, remote.
                          * viveka (m) detachment.
                          * hi (indec) indeed.
                          * tathaavidha (adv) [see tathaa] such like, so.

                          kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa.
                          sensual desires indeed, in this world indeed, not easily renounced.

                          * kaama (m, n) sensual desire.
                          * loka (m) world.
                          * na (neg) not.
                          * suppahaaya = having renounced easily.
                          - pahaaya (ger of pajahati) having renounced.

                          Please correct me if there is any mistake.


                          metta,
                          Yong Peng.



                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:

                          Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to
                          the body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues
                          by repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave'
                          because it is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust
                          and so on" (kaayo hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti
                          vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

                          > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The
                          > Commentary explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas.
                        • Ole Holten Pind
                          The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for mohana. I am not
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
                            The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                            immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for
                            mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being attached (satta)
                            to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though. However, this remains the
                            only example in the canon of the use of guhaa to denote the body,
                            metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa and PJ I, of course, takes it to
                            stand for the body. I wonder if this is an example of commentarial
                            ingenuity.

                            With best wishes,
                            Ole Holten Pind

                            _____

                            Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Piya Tan
                            Sendt: 8. februar 2007 15:36
                            Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                            Emne: Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                            Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
                            body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
                            repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
                            is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
                            hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

                            This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
                            an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
                            early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
                            to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

                            Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
                            what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
                            all the planets in wondrous alignment.

                            Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
                            is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
                            indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
                            practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

                            May we enter the stream in this life itself.

                            Piya Tan

                            On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all. <mailto:vangorko%40xs4all.nl>
                            nl> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Keren and Ole,
                            > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
                            > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                            > Nina.
                            > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
                            >
                            > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                            > > seem correct.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear friends, I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear: satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno, attached / in the cave / covered with much Attached, tainted
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
                              Dear friends,

                              I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear:

                              satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                              attached / in the cave / covered with much
                              Attached, tainted by many in the cave,

                              ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
                              standing / man / immersed in enticement
                              the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                              duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                              in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                              In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

                              kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa
                              sensual desires / alas / in world / not / indeed / having renounced easily
                              alas, renounces easily not indeed, the sensual desires in the world.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.


                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                              Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
                              engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
                              indeed, from detachment he is,
                              renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.
                            • Ong Yong Peng
                              Dear friends, the commentary recommends the third line to be read as: duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he In
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
                                Dear friends,

                                the commentary recommends the third line to be read as:

                                duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                                in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                                In (allurement) remote from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

                                metta,
                                Yong Peng.


                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                                duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                                in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                                In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,
                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                Dear Ole, I think the key is probably satta , which have several meanings, another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient being. For
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
                                  Dear Ole,

                                  I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                                  another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                                  being.

                                  For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                                  satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                                  ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                                  Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                                  the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                  Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                                  further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                                  beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                                  All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                                  remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                                  defilements in himself (the body)".

                                  However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                                  The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                                  the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                  Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                                  like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                                  It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                                  stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                                  explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                                  practice.

                                  metta,
                                  Yong Peng.


                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                                  The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                                  immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                                  for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                                  attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                                  However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                                  guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                                  and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                                  is an example of commentarial ingenuity.
                                • Ole Holten Pind
                                  Dear Ong Yong Peng, I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
                                    Dear Ong Yong Peng,

                                    I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in
                                    the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body. The few
                                    occurrences are invariably to caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only
                                    mean covered, and it is constructed with instr. of the thing
                                    something/someone is covered with. However, what does covered with many
                                    refer to? The idea of someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very
                                    unlikely. It probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of
                                    them objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.

                                    Regards,
                                    Ole Holten Pind

                                    _____

                                    Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong
                                    Peng
                                    Sendt: 10. februar 2007 02:07
                                    Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                    Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                                    Dear Ole,

                                    I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                                    another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                                    being.

                                    For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                                    satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                                    ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                                    Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                                    the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                    Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                                    further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                                    beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                                    All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                                    remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                                    defilements in himself (the body)".

                                    However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                                    The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                                    the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                    Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                                    like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                                    It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                                    stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                                    explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                                    practice.

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng.

                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com, Ole Holten
                                    Pind wrote:

                                    The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                                    immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                                    for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                                    attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                                    However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                                    guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                                    and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                                    is an example of commentarial ingenuity.






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ong Yong Peng
                                    Dear Ole, thanks for the information. I agree that (simply) covered with kilesas does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing the commentary
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
                                      Dear Ole,

                                      thanks for the information. I agree that "(simply) covered with
                                      kilesas" does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing
                                      the commentary (again), I think it is more appropriate in today's
                                      language to say "tainted with kilesas/defilements". :-)

                                      However, I do agree that 'bahu' can refer to anything because of the
                                      liberal construct. I think your interpretation, though unconventional,
                                      is another alternative way of understanding the verse.

                                      metta,
                                      Yong Peng.


                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                                      There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used
                                      metaphorically of the body. The few occurrences are invariably to
                                      caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only mean covered, and it is
                                      constructed with instr. of the thing something/someone is covered
                                      with. However, what does covered with many refer to? The idea of
                                      someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very unlikely. It
                                      probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of them
                                      objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.
                                    • Ole Holten Pind
                                      Dear Yong Peng, The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Feb 11, 2007
                                        Dear Yong Peng,

                                        The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer
                                        to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I think the
                                        verse makes perfect sense when interpreted in the light of the early
                                        Buddhists' attitude towards wearing fancy clothing, jewelry, garlands etc.
                                        Take, for instance, the description found in Brahmajalasuttanta and compare
                                        it to the rules of the patimokkha.

                                        Best wishes,
                                        Ole Pind



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Ole, thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need. I will put it in when I make an entry for the term. metta, Yong Peng. ... The
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Feb 13, 2007
                                          Dear Ole,

                                          thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need.
                                          I will put it in when I make an entry for the term.

                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng.


                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                                          The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa
                                          refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense.
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