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Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa

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  • keren_arbel
    Hi everyone, I cannot find the word guhat.t.haka in the dictionary. Can anyone help me understand this word/compound? Thanks, Have a wonderful week, Keren.
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
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      Hi everyone,

      I cannot find the word guhat.t.haka in the dictionary. Can anyone help
      me understand this word/compound?

      Thanks,
      Have a wonderful week,
      Keren.
    • Ole Holten Pind
      The first verse of the Guha.t.thaka-sutta explains this compound. It denotes someone standing in a cave guhaa. Ole Holten Pind _____ Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
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        The first verse of the Guha.t.thaka-sutta explains this compound. It denotes
        someone standing in a cave guhaa.
        Ole Holten Pind

        _____

        Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
        keren_arbel
        Sendt: 5. februar 2007 11:08
        Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



        Hi everyone,

        I cannot find the word guhat.t.haka in the dictionary. Can anyone help
        me understand this word/compound?

        Thanks,
        Have a wonderful week,
        Keren.






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Keren, guhaa is cave. See Suttanipata, vs 772. Sutta of the Cave. As to the compound, I am not sure. .t.tha is place. -ka makes a noun an adjective
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
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          Dear Keren,
          guhaa is cave. See Suttanipata, vs 772. Sutta of the Cave.
          As to the compound, I am not sure. .t.tha is place. -ka makes a noun
          an adjective (Warder, p. 187).
          Nina.
          Op 5-feb-2007, om 11:07 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

          > I cannot find the word guhat.t.haka in the dictionary. Can anyone help
          > me understand this word/compound?



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Keren, a.t.thaka means of the eights, it is the Chapter of the Eights. Other headings are dukkha.t.thaka (Evil),suddha.t.thaka. purity. Nina. ...
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
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            Dear Keren,
            a.t.thaka means of the eights, it is the Chapter of the Eights. Other
            headings are dukkha.t.thaka (Evil),suddha.t.thaka. purity.
            Nina.
            Op 5-feb-2007, om 11:07 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

            > guhat.t.haka



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • keren_arbel
            ... Other ... Dear Nina, Thank you. So the meaning of Guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, will be the analysis of the sutta from the [chapter] of the eights about the
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 5, 2007
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              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Keren,
              > a.t.thaka means of the eights, it is the Chapter of the Eights.
              Other
              > headings are dukkha.t.thaka (Evil),suddha.t.thaka. purity.
              > Nina.
              > Op 5-feb-2007, om 11:07 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
              >
              > > guhat.t.haka
              >
              Dear Nina,

              Thank you. So the meaning of Guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, will be "the
              analysis of the sutta from the [chapter] of the eights about the
              cave"?
              I'm just wandering why sometimes there is a long a when two words
              are connected, and why sometimes there is just a.
              Thanks,
              Keren
            • keren_arbel
              Dear Ole Holten Pind, Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave? In the rest of
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 6, 2007
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                Dear Ole Holten Pind,

                Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as
                Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave?
                In the rest of the verse it is said that this same man is "covered
                with many [defilements]" and not that inside the cave there are
                defilements. I just don't get this simile...

                Thanks for any explanaation,
                Mettacittena,
                Keren.
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Keren, In compounds the stems are used of the nouns. Whether we see sometimes a long a depends on the context. There can also be a negation a inside a
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
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                  Dear Keren,
                  In compounds the stems are used of the nouns. Whether we see
                  sometimes a long a depends on the context. There can also be a
                  negation a inside a compound, very tricky.
                  I have the Sutta and co in Thai, it is very long, but it is good.
                  The body is bound up with kaama. Kaama are: vatthu kaama: the sense
                  objects, the basis of clinging, or kilesa kaama: the kilesas. The
                  sense objects are rupas and these can be experienced through the
                  senses. When there is the body there is eyesense, earsense, etc. The
                  body is compared to a room for the defilements. As we read, one is
                  far from viveka, detachment. There are three vivekas: kaaya viveka,
                  citta viveka and upadhi viveka.
                  We are as it were intoxicated, and isn't this true?

                  Nina.
                  Op 6-feb-2007, om 14:46 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

                  > Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as
                  > Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave?



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Ole, Nina and Keren, Ole is right that this niddesa talks about guhaa. As for the title, guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, it is a four-part compound meaning the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
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                    Dear Ole, Nina and Keren,

                    Ole is right that this niddesa talks about guhaa.

                    As for the title, guhat.t.hakasuttaniddesa, it is a four-part compound
                    meaning "the 'niddesa' of 'eight' 'suttas' on 'guhaa'", as Nina explained.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                    The first verse of the Guha.t.thaka-sutta explains this compound. It
                    denotes someone standing in a cave guhaa.

                    > I cannot find the word guhat.t.haka in the dictionary. Can anyone
                    help me understand this word/compound?
                  • Ole Holten Pind
                    Dear Keren, It is not at all clear whether guhaa denotes the body in this verse. The old commentary thinks so, but I am sceptical about whether or not this is
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
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                      Dear Keren,

                      It is not at all clear whether guhaa denotes the body in this verse. The old
                      commentary thinks so, but I am sceptical about whether or not this is true.
                      In fact, there is no passage in the canon that would support the view that
                      the body is like a cave. In addition, many of the verses of the Suttanipata
                      are peculiar and have no parallels in the canon as such. The
                      interpretatition is therefore dubious.

                      The one who is confined to a cave does not see the light i.e. the dhamma.
                      This in my view explains the metaphor, because it is, evidently a metaphor.

                      Regards
                      Ole Holten Pind





                      _____

                      Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
                      keren_arbel
                      Sendt: 6. februar 2007 14:47
                      Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                      Dear Ole Holten Pind,

                      Can you make sense of this metaphor, of the cave as the body (as
                      Norman add in his translation)? Why is the body a cave?
                      In the rest of the verse it is said that this same man is "covered
                      with many [defilements]" and not that inside the cave there are
                      defilements. I just don't get this simile...

                      Thanks for any explanaation,
                      Mettacittena,
                      Keren.






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • keren_arbel
                      dear Ole Holten Pind, I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn t seem correct. Thanks, Keren.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 7, 2007
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                        dear Ole Holten Pind,

                        I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                        seem correct.

                        Thanks,
                        Keren.
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Keren and Ole, It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
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                          Dear Keren and Ole,
                          It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
                          explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                          Nina.
                          Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:

                          > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                          > seem correct.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Piya Tan
                          Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says to the cave means to the body (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by repeating the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
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                            Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
                            body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
                            repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
                            is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
                            hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

                            This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
                            an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
                            early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
                            to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

                            Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
                            what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
                            all the planets in wondrous alignment.

                            Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
                            is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
                            indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
                            practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

                            May we enter the stream in this life itself.

                            Piya Tan


                            On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Keren and Ole,
                            > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
                            > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                            > Nina.
                            > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
                            >
                            > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                            > > seem correct.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren, I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living tradition and living master, let s not forget about
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 8, 2007
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                              Dear Piya, Nina, Ole and Keren,

                              I tend to agree with Piya and Nina. As for what Piya said about living
                              tradition and living master, let's not forget about living language,
                              which is the main objective of this group!

                              Here is my attempt on the English translation:

                              Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
                              engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
                              indeed, from detachment he is,
                              renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.

                              satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                              attached, in the cave, covered with much,

                              * satta [=laggo (comm)] (adj) attached.
                              * guhaa (f) cave.
                              * bahunaabhichanna = covered with much.
                              - bahu (adj) much.
                              - abhicchanna (adj) covered with.

                              ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
                              standing, the man, immersed in enticement;

                              * ti.t.thanta (ppr of ti.t.thati) standing.
                              * nara (m) man.
                              * mohana (n) making dull or stupid, infatuation, enticement, allurement.
                              * pagaa.lha (pp of pagaahati) sunk into, immersed in.

                              duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so,
                              remote indeed, from detachment he (is) so.

                              * duura (adj) distant, remote.
                              * viveka (m) detachment.
                              * hi (indec) indeed.
                              * tathaavidha (adv) [see tathaa] such like, so.

                              kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa.
                              sensual desires indeed, in this world indeed, not easily renounced.

                              * kaama (m, n) sensual desire.
                              * loka (m) world.
                              * na (neg) not.
                              * suppahaaya = having renounced easily.
                              - pahaaya (ger of pajahati) having renounced.

                              Please correct me if there is any mistake.


                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.



                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:

                              Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to
                              the body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues
                              by repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave'
                              because it is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust
                              and so on" (kaayo hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti
                              vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

                              > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The
                              > Commentary explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas.
                            • Ole Holten Pind
                              The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for mohana. I am not
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                                immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor for
                                mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being attached (satta)
                                to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though. However, this remains the
                                only example in the canon of the use of guhaa to denote the body,
                                metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa and PJ I, of course, takes it to
                                stand for the body. I wonder if this is an example of commentarial
                                ingenuity.

                                With best wishes,
                                Ole Holten Pind

                                _____

                                Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Piya Tan
                                Sendt: 8. februar 2007 15:36
                                Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                Emne: Re: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                                Sutta Nipata Commentary (SnA) actually says "to the cave" means "to the
                                body" (guhaayan ti kaaye) (SnA 2:514). Further down, SnA continues by
                                repeating the gloss and then says, "The body is called 'a cave' because it
                                is an opening and a dwelling for wild beasts such as lust and so on" (kaayo
                                hi raagaadiina.m vaa.lana.m vasanokaasato guhaa ti vuccati." (SnA 2:515).

                                This analogy is easily understood and accepted by Buddhist practitioners as
                                an example of illustrative or conventional language. In fact, much of the
                                early texts (such as those of Sn) have this poetical and figurative approach
                                to esp the higher aspects of the Dharma.

                                Very often we find an interesting conjunction between what the scholars and
                                what the Commentaries say, and when the practitioners agree, too, we have
                                all the planets in wondrous alignment.

                                Otherwise, it is still all right to have private understanding as long as it
                                is not motivated by greed, hate or delusion. (This last root is very tricky,
                                indeed. That's where a living transmission from a living Buddhist master or
                                practitioner is much more help than all the dukedom of a library).

                                May we enter the stream in this life itself.

                                Piya Tan

                                On 2/8/07, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@xs4all. <mailto:vangorko%40xs4all.nl>
                                nl> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Keren and Ole,
                                > It depends on your attitude towards the Commentaries. The Commentary
                                > explains it as a room. a dwelling for kilesas. Personally I like this.
                                > Nina.
                                > Op 8-feb-2007, om 7:45 heeft keren_arbel het volgende geschreven:
                                >
                                > > I tend to accept your explanation, since the body as a cave doesn't
                                > > seem correct.
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                Dear friends, I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear: satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno, attached / in the cave / covered with much Attached, tainted
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                  Dear friends,

                                  I have reworked the verse, now with the trilinear:

                                  satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                                  attached / in the cave / covered with much
                                  Attached, tainted by many in the cave,

                                  ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;
                                  standing / man / immersed in enticement
                                  the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                  duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                                  in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                                  In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

                                  kaamaa hi loke na hi suppahaayaa
                                  sensual desires / alas / in world / not / indeed / having renounced easily
                                  alas, renounces easily not indeed, the sensual desires in the world.

                                  metta,
                                  Yong Peng.


                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                                  Tainted by many in the cave, remaining attached,
                                  engrossed in temptation, so deeply the man;
                                  indeed, from detachment he is,
                                  renounces not thus, the sensual desires easily in this world.
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear friends, the commentary recommends the third line to be read as: duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he In
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                    Dear friends,

                                    the commentary recommends the third line to be read as:

                                    duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                                    in remote / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                                    In (allurement) remote from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng.


                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                                    duure vivekaa hi tathaavidho so
                                    in deep / from detachment / indeed / such like / he
                                    In deep (allurement), from detachment, indeed, such he (is) like,
                                  • Ong Yong Peng
                                    Dear Ole, I think the key is probably satta , which have several meanings, another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient being. For
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Feb 9, 2007
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                                      Dear Ole,

                                      I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                                      another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                                      being.

                                      For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                                      satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                                      ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                                      Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                                      the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                      Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                                      further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                                      beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                                      All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                                      remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                                      defilements in himself (the body)".

                                      However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                                      The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                                      the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                      Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                                      like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                                      It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                                      stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                                      explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                                      practice.

                                      metta,
                                      Yong Peng.


                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                                      The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                                      immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                                      for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                                      attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                                      However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                                      guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                                      and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                                      is an example of commentarial ingenuity.
                                    • Ole Holten Pind
                                      Dear Ong Yong Peng, I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body.
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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                                        Dear Ong Yong Peng,

                                        I have to admit that the verse puzzles me. There is not a single passage in
                                        the canon in which guhaa is used metaphorically of the body. The few
                                        occurrences are invariably to caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only
                                        mean covered, and it is constructed with instr. of the thing
                                        something/someone is covered with. However, what does covered with many
                                        refer to? The idea of someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very
                                        unlikely. It probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of
                                        them objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.

                                        Regards,
                                        Ole Holten Pind

                                        _____

                                        Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong
                                        Peng
                                        Sendt: 10. februar 2007 02:07
                                        Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                        Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [Pali] Guhat.t.haka from the Mahaaniddesa



                                        Dear Ole,

                                        I think the key is probably 'satta', which have several meanings,
                                        another of which is also suitable for this verse: creature, sentient
                                        being.

                                        For example, the first two lines according to the commentary are:

                                        satto guhaaya.m bahunaabhichanno,
                                        ti.t.tha.m naro mohanasmi.m pagaa.lho;

                                        Attached, tainted by many in the cave,
                                        the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                        Here, the commentary suggests that 'cave' is a metaphor for 'body'. It
                                        further comments that just like the cave is a dwelling space for wild
                                        beasts, the body is a dwelling space for lust and so on.

                                        All in all, the commentary explains the first two line as "the man,
                                        remaining immersed in allurement, is attached to and tainted by
                                        defilements in himself (the body)".

                                        However, if we take satta as 'sentient being', we get:

                                        The being, tainted by many in the cave,
                                        the man, remaining engrossed in temptation;

                                        Here, we see a simile of a man remaining engrossed in temptation to be
                                        like a being covered by weeds and vermin in the cave.

                                        It is very unlikely the verse literally refers to a person remaining
                                        stuck in a cave. The reason the commentator picked the first
                                        explanation is probably that it suits meditation as an inward-looking
                                        practice.

                                        metta,
                                        Yong Peng.

                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups. <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> com, Ole Holten
                                        Pind wrote:

                                        The text addresses the fate of someone who remains stuck in the cave
                                        immersed in delusion. It seems to me that guhaa is used as metaphor
                                        for mohana. I am not aware of any passage describing the being
                                        attached (satta) to the body (as a cave). I may be wrong, though.
                                        However, this remains the only example in the canon of the use of
                                        guhaa to denote the body, metaphorically or otherwise. Mahaaniddesa
                                        and PJ I, of course, takes it to stand for the body. I wonder if this
                                        is an example of commentarial ingenuity.






                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Ole, thanks for the information. I agree that (simply) covered with kilesas does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing the commentary
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Feb 10, 2007
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                                          Dear Ole,

                                          thanks for the information. I agree that "(simply) covered with
                                          kilesas" does not make much Buddhist philosophical sense. Referencing
                                          the commentary (again), I think it is more appropriate in today's
                                          language to say "tainted with kilesas/defilements". :-)

                                          However, I do agree that 'bahu' can refer to anything because of the
                                          liberal construct. I think your interpretation, though unconventional,
                                          is another alternative way of understanding the verse.

                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng.


                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                                          There is not a single passage in the canon in which guhaa is used
                                          metaphorically of the body. The few occurrences are invariably to
                                          caves. In addition, abhi(c)channo can only mean covered, and it is
                                          constructed with instr. of the thing something/someone is covered
                                          with. However, what does covered with many refer to? The idea of
                                          someone covered with all the kilesas seems to me very unlikely. It
                                          probably refers to his clothing and jewelry or the like, all of them
                                          objects of sensuous desire (kaamaa) that should be transcended.
                                        • Ole Holten Pind
                                          Dear Yong Peng, The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Feb 11, 2007
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                                            Dear Yong Peng,

                                            The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa refer
                                            to something that covers something else in the physical sense. I think the
                                            verse makes perfect sense when interpreted in the light of the early
                                            Buddhists' attitude towards wearing fancy clothing, jewelry, garlands etc.
                                            Take, for instance, the description found in Brahmajalasuttanta and compare
                                            it to the rules of the patimokkha.

                                            Best wishes,
                                            Ole Pind



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Ong Yong Peng
                                            Dear Ole, thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need. I will put it in when I make an entry for the term. metta, Yong Peng. ... The
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Feb 13, 2007
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                                              Dear Ole,

                                              thanks again. The is the type of information that PaliScope will need.
                                              I will put it in when I make an entry for the term.

                                              metta,
                                              Yong Peng.


                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                                              The problem is that the very few recorded instances of abhi(c)channa
                                              refer to something that covers something else in the physical sense.
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