Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Pali] Re: nidaana.m samudayo

Expand Messages
  • johnny pruitt
    Brother P G Dave thank you for the explaination. Sometimes a person can ignorantly project the English language onto the thought and languages of other
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 24, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Brother P G Dave
      thank you for the explaination. Sometimes a person can ignorantly project the English language onto the thought and languages of other peoples. I will attempt to be more mindfull of the diferences in languages. Thankyou.
      mettacitena
      johnny

      P G Dave <pgd2507@...> wrote: Brother John,

      The 2nd noble truth is not redundant at all !

      The confusion seems to stem from the fact the words "arising" and "cause"
      can sometimes be used interchangably in english - but not so in pali with
      samudaya and nidaana.

      *1st noble truth* simply states the *factum* of suffering - that there is
      suffering (or that suffering arises / happens ~period~) and simply proceeds
      to enumerate the five states (not causes) that constitutes suffering as
      birth, aging, disease, dissociation from loved ones, not getting what one
      wants; and then goes on to dwell on the understanding of that truth.

      *2nd noble truth* (now that the fact of suffering [or arising of suffering]
      is enunciated) proceeds to state the *cause* of why
      suffering takes place (I have substituted the words "takes place" for
      "arises" to avoid confusion)
      as attahment to desire (tanha) and breaks up desire into 3 types -- desire
      for sense pleasure (kama tanha), desire to become (bhava tanha) and desire
      to abandon (vibhava tanha).

      Metta.
      __________________________________________________________

      On 1/13/07, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear P G Dave
      > I guess this is what I was getting at. The definition of samudaya as
      > opposed to nidaana. So the second noble truth is basically saying the
      > arising of suffering not the cause of suffering. This seems to be redundant
      > because the first noble truth already stated the arising of suffering. Hope
      > I havent missed the point. Hope this clears things up. Also in my opening
      > sentence of my last email I meant to say papan~ca not Pan~ca. Ha Ha Ha.
      >
      > Mettacitena
      > John Pruitt
      >
      > P G Dave <pgd2507@... <pgd2507%40gmail.com>> wrote:
      > May I add something here...
      >
      > "udaya" means rise (as in suryodaya [surya + udaya] = sunrise) or arising.
      >
      > the prefix "sa.m" simply indicates a fuller or more complete state, so
      > we're
      > really dealing with the word "udaya" here.
      >
      > As you see, the use of "udaya" (or samudaya in this case) does not
      > indicate
      > a cause at all. It simply states the fact of arising.
      > And "nidaana.m" is cause. The two words are therefore quite distinct.
      >
      > The sentence "Lobho kammaana.m samudayaaya nidaana.m hoti", translated as,
      > "greed is the cause for the arising of action" may provide clarity.
      >
      > Metta.
      > ________________________________________________________
      >
      > On 1/11/07, Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@... <pali.smith%40gmail.com>>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Johnny,
      > >
      > > "dukkhasamudaya.m ariyasacca" ... let's drop 'ariya-sacca', which
      > > simply means noble truth.
      > >
      > > 'dukkha-samudaya' can be understood as the cause of dukkha, where
      > > dukkha means "suffering and dissatisfaction".
      > >
      > > samudaya and nidaana are synonyms of each other, except that nidaana
      > > has a wider usage than samudaya.
      > >
      > > In the sentence "Lobho kammaana.m samudayaaya nidaana.m hoti", greed
      > > is the cause for the rise of action. It means that lobha (greed) gives
      > > rise to action. We can also say "Metta.m kammaana.m samudayaaya
      > > nidaana.m hoti", metta (loving kindness) gives rise to action. Since
      > > kamma is semantically neutral, both sentences are equally valid.
      > >
      > > The first two noble truths form a simple linear "cause>effect"
      > > relationship. This relationship can be expanded into a cyclical model
      > > by applying the concept of paticca-samuppada. The same applies to the
      > > second pair of noble truths.
      > >
      > > metta,
      > > Yong Peng.
      > >
      > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com><Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, johnny pruitt wrote:
      > >
      > > > I had an insight that I thought I would share. Not sure if it is
      > > just pa~nca or not. In the Anguttara Nikaya, as presented in the New
      > > Course In Reading Pali lesson 2, the Buddha gives a discourse stating
      > > Lobho nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya, doso pe ,moho
      > > nidaana.m kammaana.m samudayaaya which I translate as Covetousness
      > > is the origin for the arising of action, Aversion is the origin for
      > > the arising of action, Delusion is the origin for the arising of action.
      > > > In this context samudaya seems to imply the "arising" of kamma.
      > > Because nidaana implies origin or place.
      > > > The Second Noble Truth uses the phrase Dukkhasamudaya.m
      > > ariyasacha.m in this phrase samudaya is used in the sense of
      > > origin instead of nidaana. Also the Buddha in elaborating on the
      > > Second Noble Truth states that covetousness is the origin of suffering
      > > > At first I thought that this altering of the meaning for samdaya,
      > > namely, samudaya changing from arising to origin, was just a matter of
      > > interchangeability. However, as I thought about it I had the notion
      > > that maybe in the Second Noble Truth lord Buddha was implying the
      > > doctrine of the Twelve Linked Chain of Dependent Arising and that
      > > covetousness is only what CONDITIONS suffering instead of the origin.
      > > Thus the Second Noble Truth could be restated as the Arising-condition
      > > of suffering instead of the flat out Origin Of Suffering. Also in the
      > > Twelve Linked Chain of Dependent Origination Avijja is the greatest
      > > conditional dhamma of the chain of suffering and can be conditioned by
      > > suffering also. The Ta.nhaa and Upadanaa are farther in the list and
      > > must have a more minor role in the cause of suffering.
      > > >
      > > > The general idea behind this is weather Lord Buddha actually was
      > > implying the Dependent Origination or not in the second noble truth by
      > > using the word samudaya rather than nidaana.. Usually the dependent
      > > origination falls under the Nirodhagaminii pa.tipadaa Ariyasacha.m in
      > > the fist of the eight fold path yatthaayida.m sammadi.t.thi
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > It's here! Your new message!
      > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
      > always stay connected to friends.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      ---------------------------------
      Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
      always stay connected to friends.

      ---------------------------------
      No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
      with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.