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Accharaasanighaatavaggo question

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  • claus10mander
    Dear friends, I am happy to have found this group and would be very greatful for any help. I m working myself on my own through the Pali at at times get rather
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 26, 2007
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      Dear friends,

      I am happy to have found this group and would be very greatful for
      any help. I'm working myself on my own through the Pali at at times
      get rather lost.
      Kindly if there is anyone out there to help me with the following
      text I would be very greatful, esp. with the commentary notes to the
      lines from the Accharaasanighaatavaggo.
      I've used the VRI fonts, so I hope it is readable. The questionmarks
      indicate my special problems where I am not clear about the meaning,
      especially where you see three ???.

      Thanks a lot
      Claus


      Pabhassaramidam, bhikkhave, cittam. Tañca kho aagantukehi
      upakkilesehi upakkiliµµham. Tam assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuutam
      nappajaanaati. Tasmaa `assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa
      natthi'ti vadaami"ti. Paµhamam.
      Pabhassaramidam, bhikkhave, cittam. Tañca kho aagantukehi
      upakkilesehi vippamuttam. Tam sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuutam
      pajaanaati. Tasmaa `sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthi'ti
      vadaami"ti. Dutiyam.

      I make it: "Resplendent oh, Bhikkhus, is this mind, but it gets
      tainted by defilements that come like guests. But this the ignorant
      common man does not understands it as it really is. Therefore I
      declare, that for the ignorant common man there is no cultivation of
      the mind.
      Resplendent, oh, Bhikkhus, is this mind, if it gets freed from it's
      defilements that come like guests. This the well versed Ariyan
      disciple does understand as it really is. Therefore I declare, tor
      the well versed Ariyan disciple there is cultivation of the mind.

      The commentary gives the following explanation:
      Yathaabhuutam nappajaanaatiti "idañca bhavanigacittam evam
      aagantukehi upakkilesehi upakkiliµµham naama hoti, evam
      vippamuttam naamaa"ti yathaasabhaavato na jaanaati.
      Cittabhaavanaa natthiti cittaµµhiti cittapariggaho natthi,
      natthibhaaveneva "natthi"ti vadaamiti dasseti.
      Yathaabhuutam pajaanaatiti "evamidam bhavanigacittam aagantukehi
      upakkilesehi vippamuttam hoti, evam upakkiliµµhan"ti
      yathaasabhaavato jaanaati.
      Cittabhaavanaa atthiti cittaµµhiti cittapariggaho atthi,
      atthibhaaveneva "atthi"ti vadaamiti dasseti. Imasmim suttee
      balavavipassanaa kathitaa. Keci taruºavipassanaati vadanti.

      I make it:
      Does not understand it as it really is: Here this state of becoming
      is certainly (naama ?) defiled by defilements that come from without,
      here it certainly (naama ?) is liberated. There is no developement
      of mind: there is no firmness of mind, there is no analytical
      grasping of mind, thus there is no developement. I declare: he points
      out
      Does understand it as it really is: Here this state of becoming is
      certainly liberated from the defilements that come from without, here
      it certainly gets defiled . – this the great man understands. There
      is developement of mind: there is firmness of mind, there is
      analytical grasping of mind, thus there is developement.
      ??? In this text is spoken of the strong??? Vipassana. Some speak
      of tender ??? Vipassana
    • Piya Tan
      Dear Claus, For an in-depth study, you might like to read the article: Radiant Mind at http://pali.house.googlepages.com/psychologyofbuddhism Piya ...
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 26, 2007
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        Dear Claus,

        For an in-depth study, you might like to read the article: "Radiant Mind" at

        http://pali.house.googlepages.com/psychologyofbuddhism

        Piya

        On 1/27/07, claus10mander <claus10mander@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear friends,
        >
        > I am happy to have found this group and would be very greatful for
        > any help. I'm working myself on my own through the Pali at at times
        > get rather lost.
        > Kindly if there is anyone out there to help me with the following
        > text I would be very greatful, esp. with the commentary notes to the
        > lines from the Accharaasanighaatavaggo.
        > I've used the VRI fonts, so I hope it is readable. The questionmarks
        > indicate my special problems where I am not clear about the meaning,
        > especially where you see three ???.
        >
        > Thanks a lot
        > Claus
        >
        > Pabhassaramidam, bhikkhave, cittam. Ta�ca kho aagantukehi
        > upakkilesehi upakkili��ham. Tam assutavaa puthujjano yathaabhuutam
        > nappajaanaati. Tasmaa `assutavato puthujjanassa cittabhaavanaa
        > natthi'ti vadaami"ti. Pa�hamam.
        > Pabhassaramidam, bhikkhave, cittam. Ta�ca kho aagantukehi
        > upakkilesehi vippamuttam. Tam sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuutam
        > pajaanaati. Tasmaa `sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthi'ti
        > vadaami"ti. Dutiyam.
        >
        > I make it: "Resplendent oh, Bhikkhus, is this mind, but it gets
        > tainted by defilements that come like guests. But this the ignorant
        > common man does not understands it as it really is. Therefore I
        > declare, that for the ignorant common man there is no cultivation of
        > the mind.
        > Resplendent, oh, Bhikkhus, is this mind, if it gets freed from it's
        > defilements that come like guests. This the well versed Ariyan
        > disciple does understand as it really is. Therefore I declare, tor
        > the well versed Ariyan disciple there is cultivation of the mind.
        >
        > The commentary gives the following explanation:
        > Yathaabhuutam nappajaanaatiti "ida�ca bhavanigacittam evam
        > aagantukehi upakkilesehi upakkili��ham naama hoti, evam
        > vippamuttam naamaa"ti yathaasabhaavato na jaanaati.
        > Cittabhaavanaa natthiti citta��hiti cittapariggaho natthi,
        > natthibhaaveneva "natthi"ti vadaamiti dasseti.
        > Yathaabhuutam pajaanaatiti "evamidam bhavanigacittam aagantukehi
        > upakkilesehi vippamuttam hoti, evam upakkili��han"ti
        > yathaasabhaavato jaanaati.
        > Cittabhaavanaa atthiti citta��hiti cittapariggaho atthi,
        > atthibhaaveneva "atthi"ti vadaamiti dasseti. Imasmim suttee
        > balavavipassanaa kathitaa. Keci taru�avipassanaati vadanti.
        >
        > I make it:
        > Does not understand it as it really is: Here this state of becoming
        > is certainly (naama ?) defiled by defilements that come from without,
        > here it certainly (naama ?) is liberated. There is no developement
        > of mind: there is no firmness of mind, there is no analytical
        > grasping of mind, thus there is no developement. I declare: he points
        > out
        > Does understand it as it really is: Here this state of becoming is
        > certainly liberated from the defilements that come from without, here
        > it certainly gets defiled . � this the great man understands. There
        > is developement of mind: there is firmness of mind, there is
        > analytical grasping of mind, thus there is developement.
        > ??? In this text is spoken of the strong??? Vipassana. Some speak
        > of tender ??? Vipassana
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Claus. I read this sutta (AN I.51-52) with Jim and Suan. It is suitable you bring it up, since this is the thread on Anguttara Nikaya we also followed
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 29, 2007
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          Dear Claus.
          I read this sutta (AN I.51-52) with Jim and Suan. It is suitable
          you bring it up, since this is the thread on Anguttara Nikaya we also
          followed with Yong Peng.
          I read commentary and tiika (very worth while), and give you part of
          the co. below. Indeed it is about balavaa vipassanaa, which is a
          higher stage, I believe the first principle stage (mahaa). Then there
          can be awareness in any circumstance or at any place or time. It is
          one of my favorites.
          The taru.na are the first three beginning stages.
          Nina.
          Op 26-jan-2007, om 17:42 heeft claus10mander het volgende geschreven:

          > lines from the Accharaasanighaatavaggo.
          -------------------
          yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaatiiti
          ``evamida.m bhava"ngacitta.m aagantukehi upakkilesehi vippamutta.m
          hoti,
          eva.m upakkili.t.tha''nti yathaasabhaavato jaanaati.

          N: He understands as it really is: namely, in as far as he knows ,
          that this is indeed the life-continuum that is not freed from
          uncoming defilements; this is indeed defiled, thus, in as far as he
          knows the state of this as it really is.

          cittabhaavanaa
          atthiiti citta.t.thiti cittapariggaho atthi, atthibhaaveneva
          ``atthii''ti
          vadaamiiti dasseti. imasmi.m sutte balavavipassanaa kathitaa. keci
          taru.navipassanaati vadanti.

          N: There is mental development, namely, there is mental stability,
          acquirement (of wisdom): there is thus development, as he explains
          with the words, �there is, I say�. In this discourse insight as power
          has been spoken of. Some say that it is tender insight.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Nina and Claus, thanks, Nina. Yes, all our discussion on AN1 can be followed from this page: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/spectra/ekaka_nipata I hope
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 10 3:10 AM
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            Dear Nina and Claus,

            thanks, Nina. Yes, all our discussion on AN1 can be followed from this
            page: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/spectra/ekaka_nipata

            I hope to start AN2 this month. I hope to finalise the plans for this
            year in the next few days, and post it to everyone.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

            It is suitable you bring it up, since this is the thread on Anguttara
            Nikaya we also followed with Yong Peng.
          • claus10mander
            Dear Nina and all, Thank you Nina for your help. It has taken time (sorry, I can only do this in my free time) to try to read from the commentary but what you
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 12 9:04 AM
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              Dear Nina and all,

              Thank you Nina for your help.

              It has taken time (sorry, I can only do this in my free time) to try
              to read from the commentary but what you write about the two kinds of
              Vipassana mentioned here is still not clear to me:
              You translate – and I agree:
              << In this discourse insight as power has been spoken of. Some say
              that it is tender insight.>>

              But does that mean that some CALL it balavaa vipassanaa, and others
              taru.na and just call or name it different or:
              do they DISAGREE in what the text is about and say it is about two
              different kinds of Vipassana.
              This is the meaning that I get from your mention:
              << Indeed it is about balavaa vipassanaa, which is a
              higher stage, I believe the first principle stage (mahaa). Then there
              can be awareness in any circumstance or at any place or time. It is
              one of my favorites. The taru.na are the first three beginning
              stages.>>
              but even if it is so – what do the three beginning stages mean and
              what the higher stage. What text or mention do you refere to?

              Thanks again!
              Claus

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Claus.
              > I read this sutta (AN I.51-52) with Jim and Suan. It is suitable
              > you bring it up, since this is the thread on Anguttara Nikaya we
              also
              > followed with Yong Peng.
              > I read commentary and tiika (very worth while), and give you part
              of
              > the co. below. Indeed it is about balavaa vipassanaa, which is a
              > higher stage, I believe the first principle stage (mahaa). Then
              there
              > can be awareness in any circumstance or at any place or time. It
              is
              > one of my favorites.
              > The taru.na are the first three beginning stages.
              > Nina.
              > Op 26-jan-2007, om 17:42 heeft claus10mander het volgende
              geschreven:
              >
              > > lines from the Accharaasanighaatavaggo.
              > -------------------
              > yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaatiiti
              > ``evamida.m bhava"ngacitta.m aagantukehi upakkilesehi
              vippamutta.m
              > hoti,
              > eva.m upakkili.t.tha''nti yathaasabhaavato jaanaati.
              >
              > N: He understands as it really is: namely, in as far as he knows ,
              > that this is indeed the life-continuum that is not freed from
              > uncoming defilements; this is indeed defiled, thus, in as far as
              he
              > knows the state of this as it really is.
              >
              > cittabhaavanaa
              > atthiiti citta.t.thiti cittapariggaho atthi, atthibhaaveneva
              > ``atthii''ti
              > vadaamiiti dasseti. imasmi.m sutte balavavipassanaa kathitaa. keci
              > taru.navipassanaati vadanti.
              >
              > N: There is mental development, namely, there is mental stability,
              > acquirement (of wisdom): there is thus development, as he explains
              > with the words, "there is, I say". In this discourse insight as
              power
              > has been spoken of. Some say that it is tender insight.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Op 12-feb-2007, om 18:04 heeft claus10mander het volgende geschreven: to read from the commentary but what you write about the two kinds of Vipassana mentioned
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 13 12:05 PM
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                Op 12-feb-2007, om 18:04 heeft claus10mander het volgende geschreven:
                to read from the commentary but what you write about the two kinds of
                Vipassana mentioned here is still not clear to me:
                You translate � and I agree:
                << In this discourse insight as power has been spoken of. Some say
                that it is tender insight.>>

                ----------
                N: Some say: keci: this usually refer to other teachers. Some
                teachers think it is tender insight: this is not another kind of
                vipassana, but here is reference to a beginning stage, whereas balava
                refers to pincipal insight, insight that has been developed more.
                Sometimes there are different opinions and the commentaries
                faithfully mention these. These are not really disagreements.
                About the stages of insight: Patisambhidamagga and Visuddhimagga. If
                you like I can look up the relevant passages.
                Nina.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • claus10mander
                dear Nina, thanks for clearing this up - it was what I thought it should be. I can try to locate further text in the Visuddhimagga myself, I will ask you if
                Message 7 of 7 , Feb 14 8:36 AM
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                  dear Nina,

                  thanks for clearing this up - it was what I thought it should be.
                  I can try to locate further text in the Visuddhimagga myself, I will
                  ask you if case I am not successful!
                  Thanks again
                  Claus

                  >
                  > Op 12-feb-2007, om 18:04 heeft claus10mander het volgende
                  geschreven:
                  > to read from the commentary but what you write about the two kinds
                  of
                  > Vipassana mentioned here is still not clear to me:
                  > You translate – and I agree:
                  > << In this discourse insight as power has been spoken of. Some say
                  > that it is tender insight.>>
                  >
                  > ----------
                  > N: Some say: keci: this usually refer to other teachers. Some
                  > teachers think it is tender insight: this is not another kind of
                  > vipassana, but here is reference to a beginning stage, whereas
                  balava
                  > refers to pincipal insight, insight that has been developed more.
                  > Sometimes there are different opinions and the commentaries
                  > faithfully mention these. These are not really disagreements.
                  > About the stages of insight: Patisambhidamagga and Visuddhimagga.
                  If
                  > you like I can look up the relevant passages.
                  > Nina.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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