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SV: Re: [Pali] Origin of Pali and mother tongue of lord Budha

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  • Gunnar Gällmo
    ... You mean pidgin language, don t you? Pigeons don t speak pidgin. Anyhow, I think the term is not correct here. I think pidgin languages are generally not
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
      --- johnny pruitt <mahasacham@...> skrev:

      > I have always heard that it was a pigeon language
      > put together by Buddhist scholars.

      You mean pidgin language, don't you? Pigeons don't
      speak pidgin.

      Anyhow, I think the term is not correct here. I think
      pidgin languages are generally not made by scholars,
      but appear more or less spontaneously when needed, and
      primarily not for the sake of philosophical
      discussions but for more practical purposes.

      An example is South Chinese English Pidgin, mainly
      used for commercial purpuses, which I think consisted
      of English words put together according to Chinese
      syntax, as the South Chinese dialects were too
      different to be mutually understandable.

      Another example is "Russenorsk", used during contacts
      between Norwegian and Russian fishermen; the
      Norwegians thought they were speaking Russian, the
      Russians thought they were speaking Norwegian, but
      actually it was about half of each.

      When a pidgin language becomes established, such as
      Tok Pisin ("Talk Pidgin") in New Guinea, it is not
      called a pidgin language any more, but a creole
      language.

      If Pali was actually put together by scholars, it
      would be better to call it a planned language than a
      pidgin language. Actually, any written language with
      some kind of grammatical norms is more or less
      planned.

      In Europe, there have been some ideas to create a
      perfectly logical language for philosophical purpuses,
      a so called "a-priorical planned language", where all
      categories of human thought are put in a kind of
      logical grid. These plans have failed, for two
      reasons: human thought is not very logical, and no one
      ever managed to memorise those vocabularies.

      There has been better success for som "a-posteriorical
      planned languages", such as Esperanto, where grammar
      is made as logical as humanly possible (which is not
      100%), while the vocabulary is taken from the dominant
      languages, especially words that are common to them -
      meaning quite a lot of Latin.

      According to some theories, Pali was constructed in a
      way somewhat similar to Esperanto, which may be an
      exaggeration. For one thing, Esperanto was initiated
      to serve all purposes of a human language, while Pali
      is used "only" for the Dhamma - there is no secular
      use of Pali to speak of.

      And for another, the base for Pali seems to have been
      only one or a few contemporary variants of Prakrit.
      Forms from Sanskrit, which was much more standardized
      than Prakrit, were avoided.

      Gunnar







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    • johnny pruitt
      Whoops meant to say pidgen language rasoolpuri wrote: What is origin of Pali Is its origin is Magadhi or it is a pidgen
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
        Whoops meant to say pidgen language

        rasoolpuri <rasoolpuri@...> wrote: What is origin of Pali
        Is its origin is Magadhi or it is a pidgen language which was create
        by Budh scholars for writing of Lord Budha's education

        What was the mother tongue of lord Budha





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      • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
        Hello, ... It s origin is Magadhi. Not Magadhi of Asokan edicts (third century b.c.), but the earlier Ardha-Magadhi. See:
        Message 3 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
          Hello,

          > What is origin of Pali
          > Is its origin is Magadhi

          It's origin is Magadhi. Not Magadhi of Asokan edicts (third century
          b.c.), but the earlier Ardha-Magadhi.

          See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadhi_Prakrit

          You can find an interesting discussion at:
          http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=21867

          > or it is a pidgen language which was create
          > by Budh scholars for writing of Lord Budha's education

          Pali evolved with time, and one can find in the Pali Canon the early
          stratas with archaic word forms, and the later stratas with stylized
          grammar. So scholars contributed to the evolution of Pali.

          It's interesting that the word forms that evolved later did not find
          their way in the earlier texts. For example, the later evolved form
          'kilesa' is not found in the Sutta-pitaka. In Sutta one can find only
          the early form 'upakkilesa'.

          > What was the mother tongue of lord Budha

          It was a language very similar to Pali.

          The language preserved in Jain texts, Aredha-Magadhi
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_Prakrit
          which was spoken in about the same area at the same time, is very
          similar to Pali.

          Metta, Dmytro
        • thomaslaw03
          ... I heard in Japan that a similar form of Pali is spoken in some area of India, but I am not sure whether it is true. Also, a group of people in Nepal claims
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 18, 2006
            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo <gunnargallmo@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > ... there is no secular use of Pali to speak of.
            >

            I heard in Japan that a similar form of Pali is spoken in some area of
            India, but I am not sure whether it is true.

            Also, a group of people in Nepal claims that they belong to the same
            clan of the Buddha. I know this from the Buddhist Channel. Maybe their
            language is the same language of the Buddha.

            Thomas Law
          • Jacques Huynen
            There are 2 ethnic groups claiming descendance from the Buddha in Nepal: the Newars and a subgroup from them, namely the Sakyas; both speak - beside Nepali
            Message 5 of 9 , Dec 19, 2006
              There are 2 ethnic groups claiming descendance from
              the Buddha in Nepal: the Newars and a subgroup from
              them, namely the Sakyas; both speak - beside Nepali
              that is related to other contemporary Indian prakrits
              like Hindi - a sino-tibetan tonal language.

              With Metta


              --- thomaslaw03 <thomaslaw03@...> wrote:

              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo
              > <gunnargallmo@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > ... there is no secular use of Pali to speak of.
              > >
              >
              > I heard in Japan that a similar form of Pali is
              > spoken in some area of
              > India, but I am not sure whether it is true.
              >
              > Also, a group of people in Nepal claims that they
              > belong to the same
              > clan of the Buddha. I know this from the Buddhist
              > Channel. Maybe their
              > language is the same language of the Buddha.
              >
              > Thomas Law
              >
              >
              >


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            • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
              Hello Thomas, ... You probably mean the article http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=39,3056,0,0,1,0 There s also a Newar Shakya (goldsmith) caste.
              Message 6 of 9 , Dec 20, 2006
                Hello Thomas,

                > Also, a group of people in Nepal claims that they belong to the same
                > clan of the Buddha. I know this from the Buddhist Channel. Maybe their
                > language is the same language of the Buddha.

                You probably mean the article
                http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=39,3056,0,0,1,0

                There's also a Newar Shakya (goldsmith) caste.
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newar_Caste

                Metta, Dmytro
              • rasoolpuri
                Thanks all freinds for your help about origin of Pali and language ofLord Budha. ... Buddhist scholars. I also have wondered how the accentuation sounded.
                Message 7 of 9 , Dec 20, 2006
                  Thanks all freinds for your help about origin of Pali and language
                  ofLord Budha.



                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, johnny pruitt <mahasacham@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have always heard that it was a pigeon language put together by
                  Buddhist scholars. I also have wondered how the accentuation sounded.
                  Since some words look identical or very similar I wonder if the
                  language had a pitch accent.
                  > rasoolpuri <rasoolpuri@...> wrote:
                  > What is origin of Pali
                  > Is its origin is Magadhi or it is a pidgen language which was create
                  > by Budh scholars for writing of Lord Budha's education
                  >
                  > What was the mother tongue of lord Budha
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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