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Itthi & Matugama

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  • rahula_80
    Hi, I encountered this misogynistic passage. I am searching for an explantion. Although this is a Pali group, I hope you could help me. AN, II.82-83 (10)
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 16 7:04 AM
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      Hi,

      I encountered this misogynistic passage. I am searching for an
      explantion. Although this is a Pali group, I hope you could help me.

      AN, II.82-83

      (10) Disabilities of Women

      Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the
      venerable ânanda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come
      he made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So
      seated the venerable ânanda said thus to the Exalted One

      "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not
      preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go
      to a foreign* country ?

      ânanda, a woman is given to anger. ânanda, woman is envious. ânanda,
      a woman is greedy. ânanda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the
      reason, ânanda, this is the cause, why women-folk do not preside in
      a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign
      country."

      Catukkanipàta (4), Apaõõakavaggo [ON THE PERFECT WAY ] (8) :10

      http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
      Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e2.html


      10. Kosambiyasuttaü Ý In Kosambiya

      008. 10. At one time the Blessed One was living in Gosita's
      monastery in Kosambiya. Venerable ânanda approached the Blessed One,
      worshipped, sat on a side and said:

      Venerable sir, what is the reason that women neither come to the
      limelight, nor doing an industry see its benefits?

      ânanda, women are hateful, jealous, miserly and lack wisdom, as a
      result they neither come to the limelight, nor do an industry and
      see its benefits.

      Catukkanipàta , Apaõõakavaggo (The assured state)

      http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
      Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e.html


      The passage in Pali:

      10. kambojasutta.m

      80. eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kosambiya.m viharati ghositaaraame. atha
      kho aayasmaa aanando yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa
      bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. ekamanta.m nisinno
      kho aayasmaa aanando bhagavanta.m etadavoca --

      ``ko nu kho, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena maatugaamo neva
      sabhaaya.m nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na kamboja.m
      gacchatii''ti? ``kodhano, aananda, maatugaamo; issukii, aananda,
      maatugaamo; maccharii , aananda, maatugaamo; duppa~n~no, aananda,
      maatugaamo -- aya.m kho , aananda, hetu aya.m paccayo, yena
      maatugaamo neva sabhaaya.m nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na
      kamboja.m gacchatii''ti. dasama.m.

      apa.n.nakavaggo tatiyo.


      Dr Hellmuth Hecker, in "Man and Woman The Teachings of the Buddha"
      wrote:

      "In the language of Middle India of his time, the Buddha found two
      expressions for the female: first, the neutral term itthi (woman)
      and second, the discriminating term matugama. Literally, matugama
      means "mother (matar) in the village (gama)" and describes a woman
      who does not think further than her village horizon, a woman who has
      no higher ideal than motherhood. Every matugama is an itthi, but not
      every itthi is a matugama. When the suttas are speaking of primitive
      women and of female vicissitudes, then women are called matugama and
      not itthi. "
      http://www2.hawaii.edu/~tsomo/NewsLetters/3-1.htm#Hellmuth

      Is Hecker correct?

      Thanks.

      Best wishes,
      Rahula
    • Ole Holten Pind
      Misogynistic utterances in early Buddhist lit. do not differ from what we find in Indian lit. in general. Please read the Kunaalajaataka. There are plenty of
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 26 9:27 AM
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        Misogynistic utterances in early Buddhist lit. do not differ from what we
        find in Indian lit. in general. Please read the Kunaalajaataka. There are
        plenty of similar instances. I have often wondered about the status of women
        ini ndian society at the time of the Buddha.

        OP

        _____

        Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
        rahula_80
        Sendt: 16. september 2006 16:04
        Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: [Pali] Itthi & Matugama



        Hi,

        I encountered this misogynistic passage. I am searching for an
        explantion. Although this is a Pali group, I hope you could help me.

        AN, II.82-83

        (10) Disabilities of Women

        Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the
        venerable ânanda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come
        he made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So
        seated the venerable ânanda said thus to the Exalted One

        "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not
        preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go
        to a foreign* country ?

        ânanda, a woman is given to anger. ânanda, woman is envious. ânanda,
        a woman is greedy. ânanda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the
        reason, ânanda, this is the cause, why women-folk do not preside in
        a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign
        country."

        Catukkanipàta (4), Apaõõakavaggo [ON THE PERFECT WAY ] (8) :10

        http://www.metta. <http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara->
        lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
        Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e2.html


        10. Kosambiyasuttaü Ý In Kosambiya

        008. 10. At one time the Blessed One was living in Gosita's
        monastery in Kosambiya. Venerable ânanda approached the Blessed One,
        worshipped, sat on a side and said:

        Venerable sir, what is the reason that women neither come to the
        limelight, nor doing an industry see its benefits?

        ânanda, women are hateful, jealous, miserly and lack wisdom, as a
        result they neither come to the limelight, nor do an industry and
        see its benefits.

        Catukkanipàta , Apaõõakavaggo (The assured state)

        http://www.metta. <http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara->
        lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
        Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e.html

        The passage in Pali:

        10. kambojasutta.m

        80. eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kosambiya.m viharati ghositaaraame. atha
        kho aayasmaa aanando yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa
        bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. ekamanta.m nisinno
        kho aayasmaa aanando bhagavanta.m etadavoca --

        ``ko nu kho, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena maatugaamo neva
        sabhaaya.m nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na kamboja.m
        gacchatii''ti? ``kodhano, aananda, maatugaamo; issukii, aananda,
        maatugaamo; maccharii , aananda, maatugaamo; duppa~n~no, aananda,
        maatugaamo -- aya.m kho , aananda, hetu aya.m paccayo, yena
        maatugaamo neva sabhaaya.m nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na
        kamboja.m gacchatii''ti. dasama.m.

        apa.n.nakavaggo tatiyo.

        Dr Hellmuth Hecker, in "Man and Woman The Teachings of the Buddha"
        wrote:

        "In the language of Middle India of his time, the Buddha found two
        expressions for the female: first, the neutral term itthi (woman)
        and second, the discriminating term matugama. Literally, matugama
        means "mother (matar) in the village (gama)" and describes a woman
        who does not think further than her village horizon, a woman who has
        no higher ideal than motherhood. Every matugama is an itthi, but not
        every itthi is a matugama. When the suttas are speaking of primitive
        women and of female vicissitudes, then women are called matugama and
        not itthi. "
        http://www2. <http://www2.hawaii.edu/~tsomo/NewsLetters/3-1.htm#Hellmuth>
        hawaii.edu/~tsomo/NewsLetters/3-1.htm#Hellmuth

        Is Hecker correct?

        Thanks.

        Best wishes,
        Rahula






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        rtner=hbtools> Upgrade Your Email - Click here!



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        That is, if we assume these stories or depictions are contemporaneous with the Buddha s time. More likely, these are centuries after the Buddha. We know for
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 26 10:36 AM
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          That is, if we assume these stories or depictions are contemporaneous with
          the Buddha's time. More likely, these are centuries after the Buddha. We
          know for example that only the Jataka verses are canonical, the stories were
          compiled later (?).

          Piya


          On 9/27/06, Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@...> wrote:
          >
          > Misogynistic utterances in early Buddhist lit. do not differ from what
          > we
          > find in Indian lit. in general. Please read the Kunaalajaataka. There are
          > plenty of similar instances. I have often wondered about the status of
          > women
          > ini ndian society at the time of the Buddha.
          >
          > OP
          >
          > _____
          >
          > Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
          > Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>] P� vegne af
          > rahula_80
          > Sendt: 16. september 2006 16:04
          > Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Emne: [Pali] Itthi & Matugama
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I encountered this misogynistic passage. I am searching for an
          > explantion. Although this is a Pali group, I hope you could help me.
          >
          > AN, II.82-83
          >
          > (10) Disabilities of Women
          >
          > Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the
          > venerable �nanda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come
          > he made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So
          > seated the venerable �nanda said thus to the Exalted One
          >
          > "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not
          > preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go
          > to a foreign* country ?
          >
          > �nanda, a woman is given to anger. �nanda, woman is envious. �nanda,
          > a woman is greedy. �nanda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the
          > reason, �nanda, this is the cause, why women-folk do not preside in
          > a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign
          > country."
          >
          > Catukkanip�ta (4), Apa��akavaggo [ON THE PERFECT WAY ] (8) :10
          >
          > http://www.metta. <http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara->
          > lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
          > Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e2.html
          >
          > 10. Kosambiyasutta� � In Kosambiya
          >
          > 008. 10. At one time the Blessed One was living in Gosita's
          > monastery in Kosambiya. Venerable �nanda approached the Blessed One,
          > worshipped, sat on a side and said:
          >
          > Venerable sir, what is the reason that women neither come to the
          > limelight, nor doing an industry see its benefits?
          >
          > �nanda, women are hateful, jealous, miserly and lack wisdom, as a
          > result they neither come to the limelight, nor do an industry and
          > see its benefits.
          >
          > Catukkanip�ta , Apa��akavaggo (The assured state)
          >
          > http://www.metta. <http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara->
          > lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
          > Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e.html
          >
          > The passage in Pali:
          >
          > 10. kambojasutta.m
          >
          > 80. eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kosambiya.m viharati ghositaaraame. atha
          > kho aayasmaa aanando yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa
          > bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. ekamanta.m nisinno
          > kho aayasmaa aanando bhagavanta.m etadavoca --
          >
          > ``ko nu kho, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena maatugaamo neva
          > sabhaaya.m nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na kamboja.m
          > gacchatii''ti? ``kodhano, aananda, maatugaamo; issukii, aananda,
          > maatugaamo; maccharii , aananda, maatugaamo; duppa~n~no, aananda,
          > maatugaamo -- aya.m kho , aananda, hetu aya.m paccayo, yena
          > maatugaamo neva sabhaaya.m nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na
          > kamboja.m gacchatii''ti. dasama.m.
          >
          > apa.n.nakavaggo tatiyo.
          >
          > Dr Hellmuth Hecker, in "Man and Woman The Teachings of the Buddha"
          > wrote:
          >
          > "In the language of Middle India of his time, the Buddha found two
          > expressions for the female: first, the neutral term itthi (woman)
          > and second, the discriminating term matugama. Literally, matugama
          > means "mother (matar) in the village (gama)" and describes a woman
          > who does not think further than her village horizon, a woman who has
          > no higher ideal than motherhood. Every matugama is an itthi, but not
          > every itthi is a matugama. When the suttas are speaking of primitive
          > women and of female vicissitudes, then women are called matugama and
          > not itthi. "
          > http://www2. <http://www2.hawaii.edu/~tsomo/NewsLetters/3-1.htm#Hellmuth>
          > hawaii.edu/~tsomo/NewsLetters/3-1.htm#Hellmuth
          >
          > Is Hecker correct?
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          > Best wishes,
          > Rahula
          >
          > <
          > http://promos.hotbar.com/promos/promodll.dll?RunPromo&El=&SG=&RAND=64162&pa
          > rtner=hbtools> Upgrade Your Email - Click here!
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ole Holten Pind
          Yes, but the prose of the Kunaalajaataka is canonical. It has surprisingly survived the later rewriting of all of the original (?) Jaataka prose. Substantial
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 27 12:25 AM
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            Yes, but the prose of the Kunaalajaataka is canonical. It has surprisingly
            survived the later rewriting of all of the original (?) Jaataka prose.
            Substantial parts of the Pali canon no doubt originated many decades after
            the Buddha. I assume, however, that a substantial portion of the canon had
            already been compiled at the time of Asoka.

            OP

            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Piya Tan
            Sendt: 26. september 2006 19:36
            Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: Re: [Pali] Itthi & Matugama

            That is, if we assume these stories or depictions are contemporaneous with
            the Buddha's time. More likely, these are centuries after the Buddha. We
            know for example that only the Jataka verses are canonical, the stories were
            compiled later (?).

            Piya


            On 9/27/06, Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@...> wrote:
            >
            > Misogynistic utterances in early Buddhist lit. do not differ from
            > what we find in Indian lit. in general. Please read the
            > Kunaalajaataka. There are plenty of similar instances. I have often
            > wondered about the status of women ini ndian society at the time of
            > the Buddha.
            >
            > OP
            >
            > _____
            >
            > Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
            > Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>] På vegne af rahula_80
            > Sendt: 16. september 2006 16:04
            > Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Emne: [Pali] Itthi & Matugama
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I encountered this misogynistic passage. I am searching for an
            > explantion. Although this is a Pali group, I hope you could help me.
            >
            > AN, II.82-83
            >
            > (10) Disabilities of Women
            >
            > Once the Exalted One dwelt in Ghosita-park at Kosambi. Then the
            > venerable ânanda came to where the Exalted One was. Having so come he
            > made obeisance to the Exalted One and took a seat at one side. So
            > seated the venerable ânanda said thus to the Exalted One
            >
            > "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not
            > preside in a court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to
            > a foreign* country ?
            >
            > ânanda, a woman is given to anger. ânanda, woman is envious. ânanda, a
            > woman is greedy. ânanda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the reason,
            > ânanda, this is the cause, why women-folk do not preside in a court of
            > justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign country."
            >
            > Catukkanipàta (4), Apaõõakavaggo [ON THE PERFECT WAY ] (8) :10
            >
            > http://www.metta.
            > <http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara->
            > lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
            > Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e2.html
            >
            > 10. Kosambiyasuttaü Ý In Kosambiya
            >
            > 008. 10. At one time the Blessed One was living in Gosita's monastery
            > in Kosambiya. Venerable ânanda approached the Blessed One, worshipped,
            > sat on a side and said:
            >
            > Venerable sir, what is the reason that women neither come to the
            > limelight, nor doing an industry see its benefits?
            >
            > ânanda, women are hateful, jealous, miserly and lack wisdom, as a
            > result they neither come to the limelight, nor do an industry and see
            > its benefits.
            >
            > Catukkanipàta , Apaõõakavaggo (The assured state)
            >
            > http://www.metta.
            > <http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara->
            > lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
            > Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/008-apannakavaggo-e.html
            >
            > The passage in Pali:
            >
            > 10. kambojasutta.m
            >
            > 80. eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kosambiya.m viharati ghositaaraame. atha
            > kho aayasmaa aanando yena bhagavaa tenupasa"nkami; upasa"nkamitvaa
            > bhagavanta.m abhivaadetvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. ekamanta.m nisinno kho
            > aayasmaa aanando bhagavanta.m etadavoca --
            >
            > ``ko nu kho, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena maatugaamo neva sabhaaya.m
            > nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na kamboja.m gacchatii''ti?
            > ``kodhano, aananda, maatugaamo; issukii, aananda, maatugaamo;
            > maccharii , aananda, maatugaamo; duppa~n~no, aananda, maatugaamo --
            > aya.m kho , aananda, hetu aya.m paccayo, yena maatugaamo neva
            > sabhaaya.m nisiidati, na kammanta.m payojeti, na kamboja.m
            > gacchatii''ti. dasama.m.
            >
            > apa.n.nakavaggo tatiyo.
            >
            > Dr Hellmuth Hecker, in "Man and Woman The Teachings of the Buddha"
            > wrote:
            >
            > "In the language of Middle India of his time, the Buddha found two
            > expressions for the female: first, the neutral term itthi (woman) and
            > second, the discriminating term matugama. Literally, matugama means
            > "mother (matar) in the village (gama)" and describes a woman who does
            > not think further than her village horizon, a woman who has no higher
            > ideal than motherhood. Every matugama is an itthi, but not every itthi
            > is a matugama. When the suttas are speaking of primitive women and of
            > female vicissitudes, then women are called matugama and not itthi. "
            > http://www2.
            > <http://www2.hawaii.edu/~tsomo/NewsLetters/3-1.htm#Hellmuth>
            > hawaii.edu/~tsomo/NewsLetters/3-1.htm#Hellmuth
            >
            > Is Hecker correct?
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Best wishes,
            > Rahula
            >
            > <
            > http://promos.hotbar.com/promos/promodll.dll?RunPromo&El=&SG=&RAND=641
            > 62&pa rtner=hbtools> Upgrade Your Email - Click here!
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Rahula, those who studies the founding history of Buddhism would have come to know that Ananda is kind of a champion for women, a rare example of its kind
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 30 9:56 PM
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              Dear Rahula,

              those who studies the founding history of Buddhism would have come to
              know that Ananda is kind of a champion for women, a rare example of
              its kind at a time centuries before the modern Woman's Rights
              movement, a result of The Enlightenment (or Modernism) movement.

              It was Rahula who persuaded the Buddha into allowing women to enter
              the Sangha, on the very basis that women have equal potential as men
              to obtain Nibbana.

              Your doubts is about the answer Buddha gave to Ananda. At times, when
              we read the suttas, we have to understand that the Buddha is saying
              the "conventional truth", i.e. what is acceptable at his time, _not_
              the "ultimate truth", i.e. women can do equally well if given equal
              opportunities as men.

              The reason for this is a multi-faceted issue, which requires
              professional research and deserves a book in its own right.

              You may have noted that Ananda was not able to take the issue further
              with the Buddha, as he did with the bhikkhuni issue. The Buddha, as
              the head of the Sangha, was able to agree on admitting women to the
              order. However, the Buddha has no say about allowing women to be a
              professional, judge or foreign diplomat.

              If a woman is given the same opportunity in education and work, I am
              sure she has equal chances of excelling, and henceforth dismisses the
              misconceptions a male-dominated society has about its womenfolk.


              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rahula_80 wrote:

              ânanda, a woman is given to anger. ânanda, woman is envious. ânanda, a
              woman is greedy. ânanda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the reason,
              ânanda, this is the cause, why women-folk do not preside in a court of
              justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign country."
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear friends, I must be thinking of the movie s title An Inconvenient Truth . What I meant is that the Buddha s teachings can be either /conventional/
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 2, 2006
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                Dear friends,

                I must be thinking of the movie's title "An Inconvenient Truth".

                What I meant is that the Buddha's teachings can be either
                /conventional/ teachings or /ultimate/ teachings. This is widely
                recognised in all Buddhist schools. It is a non-dogmatic
                characteristic of the Buddha's teachings, which can be difficult for
                people from a non-Buddhist background to comprehend.

                On the other hand, there may be some others who think this is not
                /conventional/, but unauthentic, and probably a later addition. This
                is possible, and Buddhists have no problem if it can be shown this
                passage is really not authentic. Until then, it shall not be used to
                avoid a meaningful discussion.

                A good example is the case of bhikkhuni ordination. Buddhism is the
                first religion in the world to endorse and give official recognition
                to women taking up religious oaths. We may extend this discussion if
                someone like to deliberate on this case, or cite other examples.


                metta,
                Yong Peng.


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                At times, when we read the suttas, we have to understand that the
                Buddha is saying the "conventional truth", i.e. what is acceptable at
                his time, _not_ the "ultimate truth", i.e. women can do equally well
                if given equal opportunities as men.
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