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Re: [Pali] Re: AN1.20.1-12 Amata Vagga (1/2)

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  • Piya Tan
    Piya s note on: 1. Amata.m te, bhikkhave, na paribhu~njanti ye kaayagataasati.m na paribhu~njanti. deathlessness / they / monks / not / appreciate / who /
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 16, 2006
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      Piya's note on:

      1. "Amata.m te, bhikkhave, na paribhu~njanti ye kaayagataasati.m na
      paribhu~njanti.
      deathlessness / they / monks / not / appreciate / who / mindfulness
      of body / not / appreciate
      Y.P."O monks, those who do not appreciate mindfulness of the body do not
      appreciate deathlessness.

      This passage is one of those that can defy proper translation into English,
      and is best understood when one is a serious practitioner. In fact, one
      might say, this is where one goes beyond grammar and theoretical Pali, and
      give it a rendition by way of "insight" (to quote Norman, but in a positive
      sense).

      paribhu~njati has a sense of consuming or relishing something; hence "enjoy"
      is a good dictionary meaning. In this context, it may be taken as literally
      to mean en.joy, to find joy in, or to experience spiritual joy from. Hence,
      it could be rendered as

      "Bhikshus, they who do not enjoy the deathless, do not enjoy the mindfulness
      of the body."

      Purists, theorists and academics may not find this rendition acceptable: and
      that is just my point. One should always remember that the Buddha Word is
      not always "Pali", but has to go beyond it.

      May we seek the tree of knowledge despite the forest of Pali.

      Piya


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Thanks, Piya. metta, Yong Peng. ... Piya s note on: 1. Amata.m te, bhikkhave, na paribhu~njanti ye kaayagataasati.m na paribhu~njanti.
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 20, 2006
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        Thanks, Piya.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:

        Piya's note on:

        1. "Amata.m te, bhikkhave, na paribhu~njanti ye kaayagataasati.m na
        paribhu~njanti.
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Nina, Piya and friends, here is the final section from Ekakanipata: 606. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anaasevita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati anaasevitaa.
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 23, 2006
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          Dear Nina, Piya and friends,

          here is the final section from Ekakanipata:

          606. "amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anaasevita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          anaasevitaa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, aasevita.m yesa.m
          kaayagataasati aasevitaa"ti.

          607. "amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, abhaavita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          abhaavitaa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, bhaavita.m yesa.m
          kaayagataasati bhaavitaa"ti.

          608. "amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, abahuliikata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          abahuliikataa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, bahuliikata.m yesa.m
          kaayagataasati bahuliikataa"ti.

          609. "amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anabhi~n~naata.m yesa.m
          kaayagataasati anabhi~n~naataa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave,
          abhi~n~naata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati abhi~n~naataa"ti.

          610. "amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, apari~n~naata.m yesa.m
          kaayagataasati apari~n~naataa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave,
          pari~n~naata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati pari~n~naataa"ti.

          611. "amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, asacchikata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          asacchikataa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, sacchikata.m yesa.m
          kaayagataasati sacchikataa"ti.

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          7. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anaasevita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          anaasevitaa.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / not pursued / to whom / mindfulness
          of body / not pursued.
          "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body is not pursued, to them
          deathlessness is not pursued.

          * anaasevita = na aasevita (adj) not pursued.
          - aasevita (pp of aasevati) frequented, pursued.

          Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, aasevita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          aasevitaa"ti.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / pursued / to whom / mindfulness of
          body / pursued
          To whom the mindfulness of the body is pursued, to them deathlessness
          is pursued."

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          8. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, abhaavita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          abhaavitaa.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / not accomplished / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / not accomplished
          "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body is not accomplished, to
          them deathlessness is not accomplished.

          * abhaavita = na bhaavita (adj) not accomplished.
          - bhaavita (pp of bhaaveti) accomplished, cultured.

          Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, bhaavita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          bhaavitaa"ti.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / accomplished / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / accomplished
          To whom the mindfulness of the body is accomplished, to them
          deathlessness is accomplished."

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          9. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, abahuliikata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          abahuliikataa.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / not made much of / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / not made much of
          "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body is not made much of, to
          them deathlessness is not made much of.

          * abahuliikata = na bahuliikata (adj) not made much of.
          - bahuliikata (pp of bahuliikaroti) lit. to make much of.

          Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, bahuliikata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          bahuliikataa"ti.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / made much of / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / made much of
          To whom the mindfulness of the body is made much of, to them
          deathlessness is made much of."

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          10. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anabhi~n~naata.m yesa.m
          kaayagataasati anabhi~n~naataa.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / not comprehended / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / not comprehended
          "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body is not comprehended, to
          them deathlessness is not comprehended.

          * anabhi~n~naata = na abhi~n~naata (adj) not comprehended.
          - abhi~n~naata (pp of abhijaanaati) known, comprehended.

          Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, abhi~n~naata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          abhi~n~naataa"ti.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / comprehended / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / comprehended
          To whom the mindfulness of the body is comprehended, to them
          deathlessness is comprehended."

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          11. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, apari~n~naata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          apari~n~naataa.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / not thoroughly understood / to
          whom / mindfulness of body / not thoroughly understood
          "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body is not thoroughly
          understood, to them deathlessness is not thoroughly understood.

          * apari~n~naata = na pari~n~naata (adj) not thoroughly understood.
          - pari~n~naata (pp of parijaanaati) thoroughly understood.

          Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, pari~n~naata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          pari~n~naataa"ti.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / thoroughly understood / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / thoroughly understood
          To whom the mindfulness of the body is thoroughly understood, to them
          deathlessness is thoroughly understood."

          ------------------------------------------------------------------

          12. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, asacchikata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          asacchikataa.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / not realised / to whom /
          mindfulness of body / not realised
          "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body is not realised, to
          them deathlessness is not realised.

          * asacchikata = na sacchikata (adj) not realised.
          - sacchikata (pp of sacchikaroti) realised, experie.

          Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, sacchikata.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
          sacchikataa"ti.
          deathlessness / to them / monks / realised / to whom / mindfulness of
          body / realised
          To whom the mindfulness of the body is realised, to them
          deathlessness is realised."

          Amatavaggo viisatimo.
          deathlessness-chapter / twentieth
          Chapter on Deathlessness, the Twentieth

          Ekakanipaatapaa.li ni.t.thitaa.
          first-nipata-text / completed
          The completed text of the first Nipata.


          Please correct me if there is any mistake.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Yong Peng, thank you very much. ... 606. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anaasevita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati anaasevitaa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, aasevita.m
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 23, 2006
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            Dear Yong Peng,

            thank you very much.

            -------------

            606. "amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anaasevita.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
            anaasevitaa. amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, aasevita.m yesa.m
            kaayagataasati aasevitaa"ti.

            ----------------------------------------------------------

            Y.P.:10. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, anabhi~n~naata.m yesa.m
            kaayagataasati anabhi~n~naataa.
            deathlessness / to them / monks / not comprehended / to whom /
            mindfulness of body / not comprehended
            "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body is not comprehended, to
            them deathlessness is not comprehended.

            * anabhi~n~naata = na abhi~n~naata (adj) not comprehended.
            - abhi~n~naata (pp of abhijaanaati) known, comprehended.
            ----------

            Nina: Abhi~n~naa is the special supranatural knowledge acquired
            through samatha and it is also used for penetrative insight, and even
            for supramundane pa~n~naa. Could we use a stronger word than
            comprehension? Perhaps: penetrative understanding or penetrative
            insight? Only this leads to the realisation of the deathless, nibbaana.



            anabhi~n~naata: not penetrated by insight.

            ------------
            Nina.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina, For (1), I am thinking if paribhu~njati is better translated as consummates, which means bringing to a state of fulfillment or perfection. The
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 24, 2006
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              Dear Nina,

              For (1), I am thinking if paribhu~njati is better translated as
              consummates, which means bringing to a state of fulfillment or
              perfection. The prefix pari- has the meaning of all-rounded, completion.

              For (3), parihiina = disregarded? (as you mentioned: not taken to heart)

              Please advise.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:

              1. "Amata.m te, bhikkhave, na paribhu~njanti ye kaayagataasati.m na
              paribhu~njanti.
              "O monks, those who do not appreciate mindfulness of the body do not
              appreciate deathlessness.

              * paribhu~njati (v) uses, enjoys.

              3. "Amata.m tesa.m, bhikkhave, parihiina.m yesa.m kaayagataasati
              parihiinaa.
              "O monks, to whom the mindfulness of the body (is) discouraged, to
              them deathlessness (is) discouraged.

              * parihiina (pp of parihaayati) dejected, discouraged.
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Yong Peng, sorry for the delay, but after a weeklong trip to U.S. I have just returned. ... Pari is another interesting prefix I would like to learn more
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 3, 2006
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                Dear Yong Peng,
                sorry for the delay, but after a weeklong trip to U.S. I have just
                returned.
                > paribhu~njati can be translated as consummates, I agree.
                Pari is another interesting prefix I would like to learn more about.
                > parihiina = disregarded, well, I think this is also good: whoever
                > falls away from mindfulness of the body..

                I would leave out: 'the' before mindfulness of the body. Without
                article.
                Discouraged does not seem right.
                > parihiina: wasted away, come to ruin.
                Nina.

                Op 24-sep-2006, om 13:17 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                > For (1), I am thinking if paribhu~njati is better translated as
                > consummates, which means bringing to a state of fulfillment or
                > perfection. The prefix pari- has the meaning of all-rounded,
                > completion.
                >
                > For (3), parihiina = disregarded? (as you mentioned: not taken to
                > heart)



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Nina, thanks a lot. After I posted the last reply, another word surfaced in my mind for paribhu~njati -- savour , I hope to share with everyone. metta,
                Message 7 of 13 , Oct 7, 2006
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                  Dear Nina,

                  thanks a lot. After I posted the last reply, another word surfaced in
                  my mind for 'paribhu~njati' -- 'savour', I hope to share with everyone.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                  paribhu~njati can be translated as consummates, I agree.
                  Pari is another interesting prefix I would like to learn more about.

                  parihiina = disregarded, well, I think this is also good: whoever
                  falls away from mindfulness of the body..

                  I would leave out: 'the' before mindfulness of the body. Without article.

                  Discouraged does not seem right.
                  parihiina: wasted away, come to ruin.
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear friends, it has been awhile that we have completed the Ekaka Nipata of Anguttara Nikaya. I wish to thank everyone for participation in the translation
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 25, 2006
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                    Dear friends,

                    it has been awhile that we have completed the Ekaka Nipata of
                    Anguttara Nikaya. I wish to thank everyone for participation in the
                    translation exercise, which would be a difficult task without your
                    kind assistance.

                    In particular, Nina has been very generous in her time and effort.
                    Many questions would be unanswered, and many passages untranslated, if
                    not for her support. So, once again, thanks Nina, and everyone for
                    your participation.



                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Yong Peng, thank you for your kind words. You yourself have done an enormous amount of work for each part of the Ekaka Nipata, letting us profit from your
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 26, 2006
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                      Dear Yong Peng,
                      thank you for your kind words. You yourself have done an enormous
                      amount of work for each part of the Ekaka Nipata, letting us profit
                      from your knowledge.
                      I understand that it is difficult to do the whole of the Anguttara
                      Nikaya, since it takes so much time. Do you have any plans to do more
                      of it?
                      Nina.

                      Op 26-nov-2006, om 6:35 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                      > it has been awhile that we have completed the Ekaka Nipata of
                      > Anguttara Nikaya. I wish to thank everyone for participation in the
                      > translation exercise



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Nina and friends, thanks. In actual fact, I hope to complete all the four Nikayas. However, due to work commitments and personal endeavors, I will not be
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 27, 2006
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                        Dear Nina and friends,

                        thanks. In actual fact, I hope to complete all the four Nikayas.
                        However, due to work commitments and personal endeavors, I will not be
                        starting Duka Nipata until next year. And, it will not be the regular
                        weekly postings for at least the next year.

                        As usual, that does not stop anyone from starting a sutta translation
                        or sutta study thread.

                        I have forgotten to mention in the last post that all previous posts
                        on Ekaka Nipata can be located through this page:
                        http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/spectra/ekaka_nipata

                        I hope to put under this page links to the translations Connie had
                        posted much earlier. At the same time, I am also trying to collect the
                        links to any sutta translation exercise done by the group. If anyone
                        has more information, please let me know. Thank you.



                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.

                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                        I understand that it is difficult to do the whole of the Anguttara
                        Nikaya, since it takes so much time. Do you have any plans to do more
                        of it?
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Yong Peng, I am glad, thank you. We do not need to have any time pressure. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 27, 2006
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                          Dear Yong Peng,
                          I am glad, thank you. We do not need to have any time pressure.
                          Nina.
                          Op 27-nov-2006, om 10:50 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:

                          > In actual fact, I hope to complete all the four Nikayas.
                          > However, due to work commitments and personal endeavors, I will not be
                          > starting Duka Nipata until next year. And, it will not be the regular
                          > weekly postings for at least the next year.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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