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Ariyasaavaka ?

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  • Khemaramsi
    Dear friends Does the word ariyasaavaka in the Nikaayas necessarily refer to the sekha or asekha? Could it just refer to putthujjana? According to the
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 13, 2006
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      Dear friends

      Does the word 'ariyasaavaka' in the Nikaayas necessarily refer to the sekha or asekha? Could it just refer to putthujjana?

      According to the following commentarial passgaes, the term ariyasaavaka seems not necessarily means sekha or asekha:

      Mp I 63:
      Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno. aya.m ariyasaavakoti veditabbo.

      Vibha-a 119
      Ariyasaavakoti ariyassa buddhassa saavako.

      Do you happen to find other canonical or commentarial passgaes which confirms that ariyasaavaka could be a term for puthujjana.

      with metta

      Tzungkuen




      Sotthi te hotu sabbadaa 願幸福永遠伴隨您May there always be happiness for you
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    • Ole Holten Pind
      An ariyasaavaka (m.), ariyasaavikaa (f.) is assumed to be sutavaa as opposed to puthujjanas, who are commonly described as assutavaa and therefore asekha. This
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 14, 2006
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        An ariyasaavaka (m.), ariyasaavikaa (f.) is assumed to be sutavaa as opposed to puthujjanas, who are commonly described as assutavaa and therefore asekha. This excludes, I believe, that the term ariyasaavaka could in any way denote puthujjanas.
        Regards,
        Ole Holten Pind

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        Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Khemaramsi
        Sendt: 14. september 2006 07:54
        Til: Pali Group
        Emne: [Pali] Ariyasaavaka ?



        Dear friends

        Does the word 'ariyasaavaka' in the Nikaayas necessarily refer to the sekha or asekha? Could it just refer to putthujjana?

        According to the following commentarial passgaes, the term ariyasaavaka seems not necessarily means sekha or asekha:

        Mp I 63:
        Idha pana gihii vaa hotu pabbajito vaa, yo koci sutavaati ettha vuttassa atthassa vasena sutasampanno. aya.m ariyasaavakoti veditabbo.

        Vibha-a 119
        Ariyasaavakoti ariyassa buddhassa saavako.

        Do you happen to find other canonical or commentarial passgaes which confirms that ariyasaavaka could be a term for puthujjana.

        with metta

        Tzungkuen



        Sotthi te hotu sabbadaa 願幸福永遠伴隨您May there always be happiness for you
        ___________________________________________________
        您的生活即時通 - 溝通、娛樂、生活、工作一次搞定!
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      • Nina van Gorkom
        Tzunkuen, Yes, because sutavaa does not merely imply hearing, but: intently listening, developing understanding and applying what one hears. The ariyan is
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 16, 2006
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          Tzunkuen,
          Yes, because sutavaa does not merely imply hearing, but: intently
          listening, developing understanding and applying what one hears.
          The ariyan is described as one who has heard much, bahussutta. It
          also includes the right practice.
          Nina.
          Op 14-sep-2006, om 12:44 heeft Ole Holten Pind het volgende geschreven:

          > An ariyasaavaka (m.), ariyasaavikaa (f.) is assumed to be sutavaa
          > as opposed to puthujjanas, who are commonly described as assutavaa
          > and therefore asekha. This excludes, I believe, that the term
          > ariyasaavaka could in any way denote puthujjanas.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Khemaramsi
          Dear Dr. Pind and Nina Thanks for your reply. I think you re right, the passage from Anguttaranikaaya commentary is not the one I am looking for suggesting
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 16, 2006
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            Dear Dr. Pind and Nina

            Thanks for your reply. I think you're right, the passage from Anguttaranikaaya commentary is not the one I am looking for suggesting that ariyasaavaka sometimes could denote kalyaan.aputhujjana also.

            What do you think of the following passage?

            Vibha-a 119:
            Ariyasaavakoti ariyassa buddhassa saavako.

            Here Ariyasaavaka just denotes Buddha's disciple, including ariya and puthujjana.

            I remember taht there is a commentarial passage saying that 'sekha' sometimes could denote kalyaan.aputhujjana. Is that right? If this being the case, perhaps ariyasaavaka might denote kalyaan.aputhujjana too.

            with metta

            Tzungkuen


            Sotthi te hotu sabbadaa 願幸福永遠伴隨您May there always be happiness for you
            ___________________________________________________
            您的生活即時通 - 溝通、娛樂、生活、工作一次搞定!
            http://messenger.yahoo.com.tw/

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          • Ole Holten Pind
            The Vibh-a 119 gloss interprets ariyasaavako as the disciple of an ariya viz. the (or a) Buddha. buddhassa is apposition to ariyassa. It is possible that the
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 16, 2006
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              The Vibh-a 119 gloss interprets ariyasaavako as the disciple of an ariya viz. the (or a) Buddha. buddhassa is apposition to ariyassa. It is possible that the commentaries and subcommentaries describe a kalyaanaputhujjana as sekha. But this would reflect a considerably later view. It is definitely not canonical. The question is interesting though, and worth while investigating.
              By the way, the cursor is running amok!
              Ole Pind

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              Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Khemaramsi
              Sendt: 16. september 2006 17:48
              Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: Re: SV: [Pali] Ariyasaavaka ?



              Dear Dr. Pind and Nina

              Thanks for your reply. I think you're right, the passage from Anguttaranikaaya commentary is not the one I am looking for suggesting that ariyasaavaka sometimes could denote kalyaan.aputhujjana also.

              What do you think of the following passage?

              Vibha-a 119:
              Ariyasaavakoti ariyassa buddhassa saavako.

              Here Ariyasaavaka just denotes Buddha's disciple, including ariya and puthujjana.

              I remember taht there is a commentarial passage saying that 'sekha' sometimes could denote kalyaan.aputhujjana. Is that right? If this being the case, perhaps ariyasaavaka might denote kalyaan.aputhujjana too.

              with metta

              Tzungkuen

              Sotthi te hotu sabbadaa 願幸福永遠伴隨您May there always be happiness for you
              ___________________________________________________
              您的生活即時通 - 溝通、娛樂、生活、工作一次搞定!
              http://messenger. <http://messenger.yahoo.com.tw/> yahoo.com.tw/

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            • Bruce Burrill
              From: Steven Collins Subject: Pali Grammar Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 I would like to announce the publication of my book A Pali Grammar
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 20, 2006
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                From: Steven Collins <scollins951@...>
                Subject: Pali Grammar
                Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006



                I would like to announce the publication of my book

                A Pali Grammar for Students (2006)

                by Silkworm Press, Chiang Mai, priced at 695 baht
                (http://www.silkwormbooks.info).

                Silkworm's books are distributed in the USA by the
                University of Washington Press, priced at $30.00
                (http://www.washington.edu/uwpress). I don't know if
                there are similar arrangements with other presses in
                other countries.

                The back cover blurb says:

                This book is intended for modern students, inside or
                outside the classroom, as a work of reference rather
                than a "teach yourself" textbook. It presents an
                introductory sketch of Pali using both European and
                South Asian grammatical categories. In English
                language works, Pali is standardly presented in the
                traditional terms of English grammar, derived fron the
                Classical tradition, with which many modern students
                are unfamiliar. This work discusses and reflects upon
                those categories, and has an Appendix devoted to them.
                It also introduces the main categories of traditional
                Sanskrit and Pali grammar, drawing in particular on
                the medieval Pali text _Saddaniti_, by Aggavamsa. Each
                grammatical form is illustrated by examples taken from
                Pali texts, mostly canonical. Although some previous
                knowledge of Sanskrit would be helpful, the book is
                meant also to be usable by those without previous
                linguistic training. A bibliographical Appendix
                refers to other, complementary resources.


                Steven Collins
                University of Chicago
                s-collins@...

                --------------------
                H-Buddhism (Buddhist Scholars Information Network)
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