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Re: [Pali] Re: Mettasutta.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Traveller, As is often the case, different aspects are shown to give a complete meaning. Thus, a certain word has different meanings in different
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 26, 2006
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      Dear Traveller,
      As is often the case, different aspects are shown to give a complete
      meaning.
      Thus, a certain word has different meanings in different contexts.

      Nina.
      Op 26-aug-2006, om 7:10 heeft traveller het volgende geschreven:

      > So in the same sutta, buuta appeared in 3 places:
      > 1. ye keci paa.nabhuutatthi, ...
      > 2. bhuutaa va sambhavesii va, ...
      > 3. evampi sabbabhuutesu, ...
      >
      > Only in case 2, buutaa refers to arahants?
      >
      > If so, then sambhavessii refers to all except arahants, then why
      > bother to differentiate the before and after of those egg-born or
      > womb-born beings?



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Piya, I appreciate your question. I quoted from the Co. to the Metta sutta, but the same is also used in the Udana Co. re Bahiyasutta. I quote now from
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 27, 2006
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        Dear Piya,
        I appreciate your question.
        I quoted from the Co. to the Metta sutta, but the same is also used
        in the Udana Co. re Bahiyasutta.

        I quote now from Robert's forum who incorporated a letter from Sarah
        (moderator of dhammastudygroup):

        <Peter Masefield�s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana commentary
        (Ud-a)
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khudd...ana/ud1-10.html
        Ud-a continues:

        QUOTE
        �It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to an
        intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase
        ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate
        becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore,
        those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by seizing
        unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as �An
        antaraaparinibbaayin� (eg Aiv70ff) and �Those who are become or those
        seeking becoming�(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with �there is no (such
        thing)�, since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is
        an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana
        (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana
        through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in lifespan]....,
        whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who,
        in the former word, are spoken of as �those who are
        become� (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed,
        being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again,
        (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of
        as) �those seeking becoming� (sambhavesino) since it is becoming
        (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on
        account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been
        abandoned....�
        �For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the
        (canonical) Pali, what business is there in postulating an
        intermediate becoming of unspecified capacity?�>
        End quote.
        ---------
        So, the point is, that we at this moment cannot give up clinging to
        life, we still want to be reborn. The arahat is not so, he has become
        but is not seeking to be born again. Thus in the quoted passage the
        difference between the non-arahat and arahat is shown.
        Just in this context the term bhuuta is used in this way.
        Nina.

        Op 24-aug-2006, om 11:53 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

        > That "bhuuta" refers to arhats is most interesting: do you
        > references for this?



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        Thanks very much, Nina. I value the opinions of both sides: whether those who are faith- and text-based, and those who rely on meditation and personal
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 27, 2006
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          Thanks very much, Nina. I value the opinions of both sides: whether those who are faith- and text-based, and those who rely on meditation and personal experience, not that they are exclusive.

          I have also just signed up for the Abhidhamma Vipassana Forum to get a balanced learning process. We have so much to learn from both the Vipassana tradition and the Forest tradition.

          In todays Straits Times, a member of a local Presbyterian church is up in arms against his church because he thinks that the King James Bible is not a good translation. Things went to a ahed that he was suspended from attending church, and not he is suing the church elders for defamation, etc.

          I mention his because we should be reminded that open forum and discussion is a great learning process, and we have to continuosly appreciate the Buddha's great wisdom and compassion is giving us teachings without unresolvable conflicts. Above all we are allowed to think for ourselves.

          Sukhi

          Piya Tan


          --- Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

          > Dear Piya,
          > I appreciate your question.
          > I quoted from the Co. to the Metta sutta, but the same is also used
          >
          > in the Udana Co. re Bahiyasutta.
          >
          > I quote now from Robert's forum who incorporated a letter from Sarah
          >
          > (moderator of dhammastudygroup):
          >
          > <Peter Masefield’s translation of the Udana (Ud) and Udana
          > commentary
          > (Ud-a)
          > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khudd...ana/ud1-10.html
          > Ud-a continues:
          >
          > QUOTE
          > “It is, moreover, wrong on the part of those who seek reference to
          > an
          > intermediate becoming (antaraabhava.m) by seizing upon the phrase
          > ubhayamantarena [in both]. For the existence of an intermediate
          > becoming is altogether rejected in the Abhidhamma. ....Furthermore,
          >
          > those who still say that there is an intermediate becoming by
          > seizing
          > unmethodically upon the meaning of such sutta-passages as ‘An
          > antaraaparinibbaayin’ (eg Aiv70ff) and ‘Those who are become or
          > those
          > seeking becoming’(Khp8) are to be rebuffed with ‘there is no (such
          >
          > thing)’, since the meaning of the former sutta passage is that he is
          >
          > an antaraaparinibbaayin since he attains parinibbaana
          > (parinibbaayati) by way of remainderles defilement-parinibbana
          > through attaining the topmost path midway (antaraa)[in
          > lifespan]....,
          > whilst the meaning of the latter (sutta-passage) is that those who,
          >
          > in the former word, are spoken of as ‘those who are
          > become’ (bhuutaa), are those in whom the asavas have been destroyed,
          >
          > being those who are merely become, (but) who will not become (again,
          >
          > (whereas the latter,) being the antithesis thereof, (and spoken of
          >
          > as) ‘those seeking becoming’ (sambhavesino) since it is becoming
          > (sambhava.m) that they seek (esenti), are sekhas and puthujjanas on
          >
          > account of the fetters giving rise to becoming not having been
          > abandoned....”
          > “For when there is a straightforward meaning that follows the
          > (canonical) Pali, what business is there in postulating an
          > intermediate becoming of unspecified capacity?”>
          > End quote.
          > ---------
          > So, the point is, that we at this moment cannot give up clinging to
          >
          > life, we still want to be reborn. The arahat is not so, he has
          > become
          > but is not seeking to be born again. Thus in the quoted passage the
          >
          > difference between the non-arahat and arahat is shown.
          > Just in this context the term bhuuta is used in this way.
          > Nina.
          >
          > Op 24-aug-2006, om 11:53 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > That "bhuuta" refers to arhats is most interesting: do you
          > > references for this?
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
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          Piya Tan
          Email: dharmafarer@...
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Piya, Thank you for your kind post. I do appreciate your openmindedness and the fact that you signed up for Rob s study forum. Nina. ... [Non-text
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 28, 2006
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            Dear Piya,
            Thank you for your kind post. I do appreciate your openmindedness and
            the fact that you signed up for Rob's study forum.
            Nina.
            Op 28-aug-2006, om 4:06 heeft Piya Tan het volgende geschreven:

            > I have also just signed up for the Abhidhamma Vipassana Forum to
            > get a balanced learning process. We have so much to learn from both
            > the Vipassana tradition and the Forest tradition.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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