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Re: [Pali] Re: AN 1.6

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  • madan tandon
    Dear Scot, Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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      Dear Scot,
      Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your question
      ," I thought there must be other senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day." Here is how yoJana is defined:

      yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ; (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic. measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (= %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman}) L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement , preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing , building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h. Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense
      of a passage , grammatical construction S3am2k.

      truly,
      biloo_5

      -------------------------------

      Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote: Hello,

      P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
      jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

      "How can we know the context?"

      Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
      looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
      the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
      "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
      precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
      I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
      could be "in" it while going through one's day.

      Sincerely,

      Scott.






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    • Scott Duncan
      Dear Biloo, B: Your questions are superb. Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more! B: Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
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        Dear Biloo,

        B: "Your questions are superb."

        Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more!

        B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
        concentration that absorption."

        So, this would mean that one could maintain "concentration" without
        having to remain "absorbed."

        B: "Pertaining to your question," I thought there must be other
        senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day."
        Here is how yoJana is defined:

        yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that
        which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the
        hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ;
        (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance
        traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic.
        measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English
        miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to
        other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8
        Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental
        concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (=
        %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman})
        L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement ,
        preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing ,
        building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h.
        Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense of a passage,
        grammatical construction S3am2k."

        Thank you. How does one reconcile the two different words? How much
        of the sanskrit does the cognate contain, if you know what I mean?
        That is, how much of the meaning of the cognate is one to read into
        the meaning of the derivative? It does seem to help one fix the
        meaning, in this case, in a way that makes sense: one can concentrate
        and carry on living and thinking much more sensibly than can one while
        deeply absorbed in one of the jhaana-states. Is the sense, then, more
        like that of sati or satipa.t.thaana?

        Sincerely,

        Scott.
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Biloo and Scott, I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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          Dear Biloo and Scott,

          I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
          closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
          equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
          good Sankrit dictionary.

          dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
          tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
          a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
          devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

          dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
          abstract religious meditation.

          Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
          in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
          choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
          untranslated as 'jhana'.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

          "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
          concentration that absorption."
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Scott and Biloo, For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is not jana. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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            Dear Scott and Biloo,
            For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
            not jana.
            Nina.
            Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

            > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
            > concentration that absorption."



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • madan tandon
            Dear Yong Pong, May I pose a candid question, I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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              Dear Yong Pong,
              May I pose a candid question, "I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp"

              Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different than yoJana. I have already given the definition of yoJana.

              Yogana as you included in your reply has a GA sound whereas yoJana has a JA sound, meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.

              truly
              biloo

              =================

              Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Biloo and Scott,

              I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
              closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
              equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
              good Sankrit dictionary.

              dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
              tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
              a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
              devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

              dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
              abstract religious meditation.

              Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
              in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
              choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
              untranslated as 'jhana'.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

              "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
              concentration that absorption."






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            • Stephen Hodge
              ... What is this yoJana ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do you
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
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                madan tandon wrote:

                > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                Best wishes,
                Stephen Hodge
              • madan tandon
                Dear Nina, My attempt was not to remove H from pali Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
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                  Dear Nina,
                  My attempt was not to remove "H" from pali "Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought forth was " yoJana

                  with thanks,
                  biloo
                  ----------------------------------------

                  Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear Scott and Biloo,
                  For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                  not jana.
                  Nina.
                  Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                  > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                  > concentration that absorption."

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                • madan tandon
                  Dear Stephen. Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as yoJana . My attempt was to differentiate the J sound
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
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                    Dear Stephen.

                    Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as "yoJana". My attempt was to differentiate the J sound from the G sound, as you may visualize from the devnagari alphabet.
                    My presenting of the sanskrit cognate yojana with a capital J was not attempt to show it from transcription point of view.
                    I have already posted the long definitions of 'YOJNA"
                    Yogna however is also a sanskrit word.

                    Hope that clarifies the matter

                    truly
                    biloo

                    Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...> wrote: madan tandon wrote:

                    > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                    What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                    J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                    you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                    and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                    Best wishes,
                    Stephen Hodge






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