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Re: [Pali] Re: AN 1.6

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Venerable Dahammadhiro, Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It may not be easy to recognize them in the texts. Respectfully,
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
      Venerable Dahammadhiro,
      Thank you very much for the additional material on the particles. It
      may not be easy to recognize them in the texts.
      Respectfully,
      Nina.
      Op 2-aug-2006, om 3:12 heeft dhammadhiro het volgende geschreven:

      > There are 9 particles altogether to substitute possession meaning in
      > taddhita form: vii, sa, sii, ika, ii, ra, vantu, mantu, and .n. The
      > particle 'in' as you mentioned may be of Sanskrit sort.
      > The meaning of '.n' (or 'a' with stressing of first syllable)
      > particle is that
      > the particle '.n' is actually 'a' particle, but with a
      > specification that if the
      > first syllable of the word is 'lahu' or low stressing syllable (a,
      > i, and u),
      > that syllable has to be stressed (a as aa, i as e, and u as o)



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • madan tandon
      Dear Scot, Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
        Dear Scot,
        Your questions are superb. Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at concentration that absorption. Pertaining to your question
        ," I thought there must be other senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day." Here is how yoJana is defined:

        yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ; (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic. measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8 Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (= %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman}) L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement , preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing , building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h. Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense
        of a passage , grammatical construction S3am2k.

        truly,
        biloo_5

        -------------------------------

        Scott Duncan <scduncan@...> wrote: Hello,

        P: "This is ver[y] interesting: could there be two possible senses of
        jhaana (meditation, as is jhayatha bhikkhave, as dhyana or absorption)?

        "How can we know the context?"

        Forgive me, I'm a total beginner and so can't say much. I think I was
        looking at the Paali because I can't makes sense of what seemed to be
        the instruction to remain in "jhaana" all the time. Understood as
        "jhaana" as the meditative absorption, which I also understand
        precludes discursive thought when so absorbed, I couldn't understand.
        I thought there must be other senses of jhaana, then, such that one
        could be "in" it while going through one's day.

        Sincerely,

        Scott.






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      • Scott Duncan
        Dear Biloo, B: Your questions are superb. Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more! B: Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 3, 2006
          Dear Biloo,

          B: "Your questions are superb."

          Thank you so much. I appreciate the answers even more!

          B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
          concentration that absorption."

          So, this would mean that one could maintain "concentration" without
          having to remain "absorbed."

          B: "Pertaining to your question," I thought there must be other
          senses such that one could be in it while going thru one's day."
          Here is how yoJana is defined:

          yoJana = n. joining , yoking , harnessing Pa1rGr2. Hariv. ; that
          which is yoked or harnessed , a team , vehicle (also applied to the
          hymns and prayers addressed to the gods) RV. ; course , path ib. ;
          (sometimes m. ; ifc. f. %{A}) a stage or Yojana (i.e. a distance
          traversed in one harnessing or without unyoking ; esp. a partic.
          measure of distance , sometimes regarded as equal to 4 or 5 English
          miles , but more correctly = 4 Kros3as or about 9 miles ; according to
          other calculations = 2 1/2 English miles , and according to some = 8
          Kros3as) RV. &c. &c. ; instigation , stimulation Sa1h. ; mental
          concentration , abstraction , directing the thoughts to one point (=
          %{yoga}) Up. ; the Supreme Spirit of the Universe (= %{paramA7tman})
          L. ; a finger L. ; n. and (%{A}) f. use , application , arrangement ,
          preparation RV. Ka1tyS3r. MBh. Sa1h. ; erecting , constructing ,
          building Ra1jat. Katha1s. ; junction , union , combination Sa1h.
          Veda7ntas. ; (%{A}) f. application of the sense of a passage,
          grammatical construction S3am2k."

          Thank you. How does one reconcile the two different words? How much
          of the sanskrit does the cognate contain, if you know what I mean?
          That is, how much of the meaning of the cognate is one to read into
          the meaning of the derivative? It does seem to help one fix the
          meaning, in this case, in a way that makes sense: one can concentrate
          and carry on living and thinking much more sensibly than can one while
          deeply absorbed in one of the jhaana-states. Is the sense, then, more
          like that of sati or satipa.t.thaana?

          Sincerely,

          Scott.
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Biloo and Scott, I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
            Dear Biloo and Scott,

            I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
            closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
            equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
            good Sankrit dictionary.

            dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
            tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
            a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
            devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

            dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
            abstract religious meditation.

            Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
            in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
            choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
            untranslated as 'jhana'.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

            "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
            concentration that absorption."
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Scott and Biloo, For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is not jana. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
              Dear Scott and Biloo,
              For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
              not jana.
              Nina.
              Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

              > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
              > concentration that absorption."



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • madan tandon
              Dear Yong Pong, May I pose a candid question, I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                Dear Yong Pong,
                May I pose a candid question, "I wonder if you can read Devnagri scritp"

                Yogana as you described and used in your comments is quiet different than yoJana. I have already given the definition of yoJana.

                Yogana as you included in your reply has a GA sound whereas yoJana has a JA sound, meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.

                truly
                biloo

                =================

                Ong Yong Peng <pali.smith@...> wrote: Dear Biloo and Scott,

                I am very reluctant to understand jhaana from yogana, not matter how
                closely related they are. As I mentioned earlier, the Sanskrit
                equivalent of jhaana is dhyana, a word which can be found in any
                good Sankrit dictionary.

                dhyana [ dhyâ.ana ] n. meditation; religious contemplation: -
                tatpara, a. lost in thought; -dhîra, a. absorbed in thought; -para,
                a. id.; -yoga, m. deep meditation, religious ab sorption; -vat, a.
                devoted to religious medi tation; -sthita, pp. absorbed in thought.

                dhyāna n. meditation, thought, reflection, (esp.) profound and
                abstract religious meditation.

                Ven. Dhammadhiro and Nina had both given good explanations of jhaana
                in earlier mails. The English word 'absorption' is only a word of
                choice for some English translators. I would leave jhaana
                untranslated as 'jhana'.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Scott Duncan wrote:

                "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                concentration that absorption."






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              • Stephen Hodge
                ... What is this yoJana ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do you
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 4, 2006
                  madan tandon wrote:

                  > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                  What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                  J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                  you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                  and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                  Best wishes,
                  Stephen Hodge
                • madan tandon
                  Dear Nina, My attempt was not to remove H from pali Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
                    Dear Nina,
                    My attempt was not to remove "H" from pali "Jhanna.: but rather to present one of the many sanskrit cognates. Hence the sanskrit word brought forth was " yoJana

                    with thanks,
                    biloo
                    ----------------------------------------

                    Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote: Dear Scott and Biloo,
                    For a word derivation we cannot leave out the *h* from jhaana. it is
                    not jana.
                    Nina.
                    Op 4-aug-2006, om 4:40 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven:

                    > B: "Firstly Jhanna is a cognate of a Sanskrit word yoJana, more at
                    > concentration that absorption."

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                  • madan tandon
                    Dear Stephen. Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as yoJana . My attempt was to differentiate the J sound
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 5, 2006
                      Dear Stephen.

                      Your assertive and presumptuous statement that the there is no such sanskrit word as "yoJana". My attempt was to differentiate the J sound from the G sound, as you may visualize from the devnagari alphabet.
                      My presenting of the sanskrit cognate yojana with a capital J was not attempt to show it from transcription point of view.
                      I have already posted the long definitions of 'YOJNA"
                      Yogna however is also a sanskrit word.

                      Hope that clarifies the matter

                      truly
                      biloo

                      Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...> wrote: madan tandon wrote:

                      > meaning of "Yogana" and "yoJana" are quite different.
                      What is this "yoJana" ? In the style of transcription which uses a capital
                      J, the J stands for ~n (n tilde). But there is no such Sanskrit word. Do
                      you mean YuJjAna ? But in any case, you are mistaken: jhaana/dhyaana is not
                      and cannot be cognate with any derivatives from the YUJ root.

                      Best wishes,
                      Stephen Hodge






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